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Trump and CO-Defendants have Nine Days to Surrender; Special Counsel Sought Trump's DMs; Look at Co-Defendants in Georgia Indictment; Fred Upton is Interviewed about the Trump Charges; Death Toll Rises in Maui; Biden Will Travel to Maui. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired August 16, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:46]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The deadline is set for Trump and his 18 co- defendants to turn themselves in, in Georgia, which is why everyone is keeping close watch on the Fulton County jail for any and all to surrender.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: The death toll is rising in the deadliest U.S. wildfire in a century. One hundred and six people have been killed in Maui, but only a handful identified because the inferno made human remains largely unrecognizable. And now there are new, critical questions about what may have sparked some of those wildfires.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: For the first time North Korean officials go public on U.S. Army Private Travis King. They claim he is seeking refuge there, in part due to racial discrimination in the U.S. military.

I'm John Berman, with Sara Sidner and Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BOLDUAN: The Georgia jail where Donald Trump and his 18 accused co- conspirators are expected to surrender is open and ready for bookings. In fact, the sheriff has made clear it's open 24/7, meaning any defendant at any time could turn themselves in. Trump has not indicated exactly when he will be showing up. And there's also no date certain yet for the other 18 charged. But with a deadline set and nine days left, what we - what he and his co-defendants decide to do within this time could matter a great deal in how this case plays out in court.

We do know that Rudy Giuliani has given some suggestion, saying he will turn himself in next week. And Trump's former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, is also making plans. But he's now trying to get his case moved out of Georgia and into federal court. We're going to dive into that strategy -- the strategy behind that in a moment.

Let's get to CNN's Nick Valencia, he's live outside the Fulton County Courthouse for more on all of this.

Nick, walk us through what to expect when any and all of them do start to surrender.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, Kate.

If the Fulton County sheriff keeps his word and is true to his word that he's going to treat Donald Trump, the former president, and his 18 co-defendants as he would anyone else who's been indicted here in Fulton County, which means being processed and fingerprinted through the infamous Fulton County Jail, where earlier this year a man being held on pretrial detention was allegedly eaten alive by bed bugs. Even the Fulton County sheriff here, Pat Labat, has admitted that this facility had some problems and he's tried to get that facility overhauled.

And the news of Trump and his co-defendants being processed here has created quite the reaction here in Atlanta, if only for the potential optics.

Meanwhile, Kate, we're also learning about the potential defense strategies for some of these defendants. Former chief of staff for the former president, Mark Meadows, and his team filing a formal petition to try to get a change of venue from state court to federal court.

And what they're arguing here in this formal petition is that anyone who's charged during their alleged actions while they're a federal official should have their criminal proceedings moved from a state court to a federal court. Here's what they're saying in part of their filing here. "Nothing Mr. Meadows is alleged in the indictment to have done is criminal, per se. Arranging Oval Office meetings, contacting state officials on the president's behalf, visiting a state government building and setting up a phone call for the president. One would expect a chief of state to the president of the United States to do these sorts of things."

Mark Meadows has been charged with two counts in the indictment, including racketeering, as well as violation of oath of office by a public official. And we understand he is going to file a formal petition at a later date, but it is now in the hands of a U.S. district judge here in Georgia.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right. Nick Valencia, outside the courthouse in Fulton County. Thank you so much, Nick. A lot of action going to be happening there very, very soon.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, turning to special counsel Jack Smith's federal investigation into the 2020 election. CNN has learned that prosecutors tried to get access to former President Trump's direct messages on Twitter. And there are a lot of them. Unsealed transcripts also give more hints into what the special counsel was looking for before indicting Trump.

CNN's senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz is joining us now. Katelyn, this comes as a revelation because we know a lot of people

say, look, he doesn't use email, he doesn't really, you know, go online and send messages, but now we're hearing about these DMs.

[09:05:07]

What is the special counsel looking for in these messages?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Sara, there was a lot of information the special counsel office was looking for in Donald Trump's Twitter account, even associated accounts to it, all kinds of data that they wanted. But, Sara, this was quite a revelation in these transcripts that were unsealed finally yesterday in this fight where the special counsel's office had had this warrant approved to get Donald Trump the @realDonaldTrump Twitter information for their investigation, and Twitter was fighting it and they were also fighting particularly the idea that they couldn't tell Donald Trump about this.

But in the course of these transcripts it was a revelation because no one really knew how much Donald Trump may have been talking privately to other people, potentially to advisers, or that other people may have been using his account, would be sending messages that would be in private because, like you said, he didn't email, he didn't text and there was always a question, did he use direct messages on Twitter. He sent so many tweets publicly.

And then we have, from these court hearings now, Twitter confirming to a judge that, yes, there was DMs on Donald Trump's Twitter account. The direct quote from one of the lawyers in this hearing was, "we were able to determine that there was some volume in that for this account," meaning direct messages. "There are confidential communications," period.

And then at a different part of the hearing, the Twitter lawyer says, what the Justice Department appears to be looking for, and what they were focused on as they were trying to get that access to those messages, which they did ultimately get, saying, "the DOJ was most interested in communications between government officials and Twitter regarding the subject account." Now, that could be Trump and others in his administration talking over DM. That also could be government officials talking to Twitter more generally about his account being pulled down after January 6th. But all of it got swept into the special counsel investigation.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, thank you so much, Katelyn Polantz, there with some really interesting information. We didn't know that he was actually getting on his electronics and sending messages. No texting. No emailing.

BERMAN: Yes, we've been told that for decades -

SIDNER: Yes. BERMAN: He is not the kind of guy who left an electronic trail. There is one here. What does that mean? I guess that remains to be seen, Sara.

SIDNER: Right.

BERMAN: We're going to delve a little bit deeper into the Georgia case right now. With us is CNN's senior legal analyst, former federal prosecutor Elie Honig, founding partner of the law firm Honig Berman and Honig.

I want to talk about two of the co-defendants of Donald Trump in Georgia here and a legal filing that I think gets to the center of this entire case.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BERMAN: Let's start with Mark Meadows here, what he's facing and why he's so interesting.

HONIG: Mark Meadows is a fascinating case because he's not charged in the federal indictment brought by Jack Smith. He's not even one of the six co-conspirators. He is charged, however, in this state case coming from Fani Willis, only with two counts. First of all with racketeering. Very broad. The essential allegation is he facilitated this whole effort on Donald Trump's behalf to steal the election.

The only other crime is solicitation of violation of oath by a public officer. That refers, of course, to the infamous phone call Donald Trump made to Brad Raffensperger where he said I need you to find votes. Mark Meadows arranged that call and was on that call. He doesn't really say much. So, that's all that he's looking at here.

Now, he has made this motion, that you referred to, to remove the case from state court, where Fani Willis has jurisdiction, over to federal court, on the basis of this federal law relating to removal. And what that law essentially says, that you can remove to the federal district court of the United States if what you're charged for is any act by an officer of the United States -- Meadows is going to say I was chief of staff at the White House -- and this is the key phrase right here, under color of such office. It's not, well, you were chief of staff, game over. It's, was your conduct under color of what you're supposed to be doing in that job.

BERMAN: Now, this, to me, is so interesting and so central, not just to the Georgia case, but to the federal cases also. Under color of such office. Mark Meadows, and maybe Trump eventually, are going to argue that we did this because, you know, I was president of the United States, or as president of the United States or chief of staff to president of the United States, not as a political candidate for office.

HONIG: Exactly.

BERMAN: How do you split that hair? HONIG: And I think Donald Trump is sure to make this motion, too. I

actually think Mark Meadows has a stronger case here because Mark Meadows will say, as chief of staff, what am I doing here? I'm arranging meetings. I'm arranging phone calls. I'm visiting the states. I'm doing what the president tells me to do.

Donald Trump's going to have a little bit of a more difficult road because the president is not supposed to have a direct hands-on role in election. That's reserved for states. But Trump will say, in my capacity as chief executive, I was taking care - there's a part of the Constitution that says, the presidential take care that laws be faithfully executed.

[09:10:02]

He'll argue, I was trying to do my job as president. Maybe not in the best way, but I was trying to do my job.

BERMAN: Who gets to decide?

HONIG: The judge. So, there's very little to guide us on this. This whole doctrine of moving a case from state to federal court and then potentially getting it dismissed if a judge finds that it was under color of such office, it goes back to the early 1900s. We've only had a very small handful of cases, and really nothing even remotely comparable to this.

BERMAN: And, again, I just want to stay on this for one more beat -

HONIG: Yes.

BERMAN: Because if it is under color of such office, Donald Trump's argument here is that, I legitimately thought there was fraud in the U.S. election. As president, I thought there was fraud.

HONIG: Exactly.

BERMAN: There wasn't. He was told there wasn't. There's been no proof that it was. So, if a judge were to say this were under color of such office, wouldn't that be leaning towards his theory of the case, Trump's theory of the case?

HONIG: Absolutely. Not only is this a sort of procedural argument, get me over to federal court, but it's also the core of his defense, I was doing my job. I thought I was doing my job. I was following what my advisers told me.

BERMAN: Right.

HONIG: Again, very much in tension with the alleged facts here, but that will be the defense.

BERMAN: And why there might be a high bar.

HONIG: Yes.

BERMAN: Very quickly, one reason why Meadows and Trump may want to get this in federal court, why?

HONIG: Yes. Well, if this case is charged in only Fulton County, which is this one here, not to do your magic wall gig, John, the jury will be very anti-Trump. The count in 2020 was about 72 percent for Biden, 26 for Trump.

BERMAN: Yes. And just so people know, Cherokee County and Forsyth County here, which are just north, actually about 68 percent, 65 percent for Trump.

HONIG: In favor of Trump. Way better for Trump. And if they get into federal court, the jury will be drawn from the entire northern district of Georgia, which is basically all of these counties. If they stay in Fani Willis' court, it's going to be all from Fulton County.

BERMAN: All right, let's talk Rudy Giuliani here, because Rudy Giuliani also has been saying publicly that he's going to try to move this case to federal court.

HONIG: Yes, that's a very long shot argument. Rudy's argument -- he, of course, was not a federal official. He's going to argue that he was an agent. Meaning he was acting somehow on behalf of Donald Trump, the president.

BERMAN: As the president.

HONIG: As president, right. But Rudy Giuliani was, I think at best a personal lawyer. Maybe a campaign lawyer. That, to me, is a hail Mary of an argument. He'll probably make it, but I don't think he's going to have any luck.

BERMAN: Can we reflect for a moment on this man, the former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani, who used to run the Southern District of New York -

HONIG: He did.

BERMAN: Where you, at one point, worked, Elie. The situation that he is now in.

HONIG: It's sort of astonishing for me to see this, I mean I'll just say personally, because at the Southern District of New York, he was there generations before -- a generation before me, but he was a revered figure. He had been the head of that office. He was, in fact, a pioneer of using the RICO, the federal version of the RICO law to go after gangsters. And now here he finds himself not just being sued and subpoenaed and investigated, but actually under indictment. This man, who used to lock people up, as his job, now faces the very real prospect of being on the other side of that.

BERMAN: And he's out of money, apparently, to pay for the lawyers that he's going to need a lot of in the next years (ph).

HONIG: There's always public defenders.

BERMAN: Elie Honig, thank you very much for that. HONIG: Thanks.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: Also joining us right now is Fred Upton, the former Republican congressman from Michigan.

It's good to see you again. Thank you so much for coming in.

Let's talk about this third - this fourth indictment against the former president. You voted to impeach, folks will remember, to impeach former President Trump when the House voted after the January 6th insurrection. You and just a handful of other Republicans did.

Now after not just one indictment over trying to overthrow the 2020 election, but now two indictments against Donald Trump for this very thing, do you feel vindicated?

FRED UPTON (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I do. And you remember the president, right after January 6th, said, in his words, he did everything totally appropriate. There are a lot of us that didn't think that that was the case. As you look at the ten Republicans that voted to impeach him in the House, we were all amazed that those on the inside, some cabinet members, certainly those in the West Wing, didn't really defend us at all. They saw firsthand what we saw on the House floor back on January 6th, but it sure did appear as though he tried to steal the vote, that he -- and we found out later about these false electors. Michigan is one of those states that had a number of electors that tried to actually cast a vote even though Biden won by 154,000 votes. Trump never came up with the evidence that would overturn an election in any of those states, certainly here in Michigan. And he made these false claims that more people voted in Detroit than lived there. Well, that was dispelled. There was actually a Republican state senate investigation in terms of some of the charges that he made, and they were all debunked.

That's the same case here now in Georgia, where he claimed that, what, 60 some thousand underaged people voted, which was never dispelled. You know it's -- yes, we all feel like we've been vindicated with their votes.

[09:15:03]

And, obviously, he's innocent until proven guilty and -- but you've got these four indictments. It looks pretty bad for him I think you'd have to say. And it's going to take a while. I mean I don't know if it's going to be a state court or a federal court. I agree with Will Hurd when he says that one of the reasons that president -- former President Trump is running is that he'd like to exercise that pardon should he be re-elected. And, of course, he's been winning hands down in (inaudible) --

BOLDUAN: Fred, let me ask you - let me ask you about that, Fred. And for all - all - for everyone, Fred Upton always requests that we -- even though I always want to call you congressman, you always request that I call you Fred. UPTON: Yes. Yes.

BOLDUAN: Just so you know. I -

UPTON: (inaudible) good.

BOLDUAN: I've been interested to see the response from Republicans running against Trump. You mentioned Will Hurd. I'm going to put up on the screen for everybody some of the reaction from these Republican candidates that we have seen since this fourth indictment. By and large most of them are attacking the indictment. Tim Scott calling the indictment "un-American and unacceptable." But, as you mentioned, you have Will Hurd, you have Asa Hutchinson saying that this further shows that Trump should not hold office again.

But what do you think by and large of how Republicans have responded to now 91 criminal charges against Donald Trump?

UPTON: Well, they're scared to death of the base. I mean I look here at Michigan. Every member of the Michigan Republican delegation has endorsed Trump. And that's since some of the indictments. They're scared of a primary.

You look at what Jim Jordan said earlier this week on this Georgia indictment. He said, the president did nothing wrong. Really? My bet is that if he had a chance to change things around, he might not be in the situation that he is in today.

So, it's -- you know, every - you know, my former colleagues, they're scared of a primary. They do control, you know, our party apparatus here in Michigan. You've got no filing deadlines that have been reached yet in any of the states. And, you know, the polls show that he's got 60 percent of the -- the Republicans. He's running away from it. In every state, New Hampshire and Iowa, he's identified 100,000 Trump supporters. They're going to be at the caucuses when they meet. And you remember, Iowa was not a state that Trump won back in 2016.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right.

UPTON: He's stronger than ever.

BOLDUAN: Have - that being -- especially in light of that, if a general election is going -- comes down to being Joe Biden versus Donald Trump, have you decided who you will support or how you would vote?

UPTON: Well, that's why I'm working so hard with No Labels. This is a group that's -- you know, we know that 70 percent of the American electorate doesn't want a rematch between Trump and Biden. And we got some good news earlier this week -

BOLDUAN: But we also know that a third party or independent run has really never worked and there's a lot of fear of what it actually - that it's actually only going to bolster Donald Trump's candidacy. If No Labels doesn't get on the ballot in all 50 states, if No Labels doesn't pan out and you don't have a candidate to run, and you're faced with - I mean, you're faced with a binary choice, what do you do?

UPTON: I know what - I know where you're headed in this - yes, I know, it makes it a really difficult choice for me, which is why I'm working so hard with No Labels. We think that we will be on all 50 --

BOLDUAN: Oh, darn, I think right at the end we lost it.

Former Congressman Fred Upton, thank you so much for your time. It's great to have you back on.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, coming up, CNN gets a first look at the wildfire devastation in Lahaina as the death toll in Maui surpasses 100 people. And we have just learned when President Biden will visit the state.

For the first time since an American soldier sprinted into North Korea last month, state media now confirms he is there. Why they claim he crossed into their country.

Plus, the other side of the lawsuit surrounding "The Blind Side." The family at the heart of the film pushes back on allegations they lied to take advantage of former NFL star Michael Oher.

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[09:23:25]

SIDNER: This morning we're getting a first look at the extensive damage to the historic town of Lahaina. A camera crew traveled with FEMA to see portions of Lahaina that had been blocked off until now. This is really the first time the public at large is getting a look from the ground view at the devastation there.

The devastation so vast only about a third of the fire zone has been searched by rescue crews. The governor said until now most of the remains were found along Seaside Road. Today, they will shift their focus to begin searching through homes.

With that search they expect the death toll to continue to rise. It now stands at 106 people who were lost in the fire.

Just take a second and look at how damaged every single thing is. Some of those buildings just turned to dust. There is still a lot of unanswered questions surrounding the fire and the response to it.

One big focus right now is the power lines. We don't know exactly what started the fire, that hasn't been determined yet, but there is a video that may show a power line exploding moments before a flame was seen.

We want to note, this video was taken on another part of the island separate from that fire that destroyed Lahaina there. There were several fires that have been burning. It was shot at a bird sanctuary on Maui on Monday, August 7th. After a few seconds you will see a white flash. You see it there. Now, we have paused on that so you can see it more clearly. Now, in

the following moments, not long after that, the camera pans around. And just a few minutes later, flames are burning in the distance. We've highlighted those for you here.

[09:25:01]

At the same time of that first flash, "The Washington Post" reports ten sensors went off in the town where the sensors are located. Basically, on the other side of the island to Lahaina. Hawaiian Electric, Maui's main power company, released a statement to "The Washington Post" saying they are focused on supporting responders right now. Then they went on to say, "we know there is speculation about what started the fires, and we, along with others, are working hard to figure out what happened."

CNN's Mike Valerio is on the ground in Maui.

Mike, the governor told our Kaitlan Collins that identifying the dead in Lahaina will perhaps be as long and painful as a process for families who have suffered through all of this similar to 9/11. How are people responding to that?

MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sara, I think that people are entering this profoundly mournful period hearing comments just like that. And it is so painful, Sara, to see this in-person on the ground here in the heart of Maui because this is an island that blooms with life. And to know that everybody here is entering this chapter, it's cast such a funerial pal to know that not understanding what has happened to your mother or your sister, where their remains could be and what condition they could be in isn't just a question that might not be answered for a few days, but this could be something that lingers, that looms over families for months, Sara.

So, in terms of why this process is going to, in all likelihood, drag on so long for so many, it's because the DNA in remains that are being found, it is so delicate and so damaged.

And to that point, you know, we just got the latest figures. There are 101 sets of remains that have been found so far and have yet to be identified. And in all those sets of remains, only 13 of them have DNA profiles that have been assembled. So, more scientists will be brought in so that more and more of those DNA samples can be matched to families.

But we are hearing more and more people who are not going to wait that long. One man you're going to see in a couple seconds went to the morgue to try to find his stepfather's body.

Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL RICHTER, TRYING TO FIND STEPFATHER: I have run into a lot of people that I understand are tired. I'm tired, too. I haven't slept in six days. And I just -- like I said, I just want to identify his body and put him at rest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALERIO: I mean, just try to put yourself in his shoes.

To that end, the governor, Josh Green, is saying that about 70 percent of the burn area has yet to be searched. And he's hoping, Sara, that can be done by the end of this weekend.

SIDNER: So, that was really hard to watch. There is this recovery that is happening, but can you tell us, are residents able still to get in now to try to see what is left of their homes? I see the road behind you still has the flashing lights, but it looks like it's open.

VALERIO: Yes, that's right. So, this is Hano Lapidi Lani Highway (ph) and it's been open for residents and for emergency responders. So, most people, Sara, have been able, who live in the epicenter of the disaster zone, have been able to get in. But who hasn't? Normal commerce. Tourists. Not getting into the burn zone, but getting into the country side around the area.

So, the thinking is that if Maui is going to recover, commerce and tourism needs to flow on the western side of the island. This is part of Maui starting to recover, starting very slowly to get back to normal, Sara.

SIDNER: Wow. All right, Mike Valerio, thank you so much for all your reporting there in Maui.

John.

BERMAN: All right, this just in, moments ago, the White House announced when President Biden will travel to Hawaii to see the devastation firsthand.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is at the White House.

Arlette, what are you hearing?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, the White House has now set a date for President Biden and First Lady Jill Biden to travel to Maui. And the two will make their way to Hawaii on Monday to meet with survivors, first responders, as well as state and local officials. This will give the president an opportunity to view this devastation on the island firsthand, as well as take a look at some of the efforts that the federal government and local officials have been making in the recovery efforts.

Now, extra Karine Jean-Pierre, the White House press secretary, released a statement announcing this visit in which she said, quote, "in Maui the president and first lady will be welcomed by state and local leaders to see firsthand the impacts of the wildfires and the devastating loss of life and land that has occurred on the island, as well as discuss the next steps in the recovery."

Now, just yesterday President Biden had said he hoped to visit Maui soon, but that he did not want to take away or disrupt any of the recovery efforts that are underway.

[09:29:59]

But in this statement the White House press secretary also said that the -- Hawaii's governor, Josh Green, advised that he believes the search and recovery efforts will be at a stage by early