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Trump, 18 Co-Defendants Now Have Nine Days to Surrender; GOP Split on Condemning Trump After Fourth Indictment; New Video Shows Extensive Damage in Lahaina. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 16, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: At any moment, Former president Donald Trump or any one of his 18 co-defendants in the election subversion case could turn themselves in at a jail in Georgia. We are live in Atlanta as the deadline for their surrender is nine days away.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The White House just announced plans for President Biden to head to Hawaii to see firsthand devastation from the Maui wildfires. We also have a new perspective, a new video coming in from the epicenter of the tragedy with questions growing this morning about how those fires started.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Could Alec Baldwin face charges once again in the Rust film set shooting? Past charges were dropped but why a new forensic analysis could change the case.

I'm John Berman with Sara Sidner and Kate Bolduan. This is CNN News Central.

SIDNER: Sometime between now and next Friday, Donald Trump and his 18 accused co-conspirators are supposed to show up at a jail in Georgia, to voluntarily turn themselves in on charges related to the 2020 election. At least, that's how we understand it at this moment. As with every Trump case, circumstances can change.

But here is how a Fulton County sheriff says he expects all of this to happen. The sheriff says Trump is not expected to be booked at the courthouse, where the grand jury indicted him on 13 charges, but rather down the road at the jail. And you can see that illustrated there how far away it is. That jail is open 24/7.

Once inside, defendants are typically fingerprinted and then a mug shot is taken. Will this be the case for Donald Trump?

CNN's Nick Valencia is live outside the courthouse in Atlanta. Nick, all 19 defendants including Donald Trump could really show up any time they wanted to, to be booked. This is open 24/7. What are you hearing about potential timing here?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Fulton County sheriff, Sara, telling us that there is going to be no preferential treatment when it comes to these defendants, former president or not. And what that means is all 19 of them will be processed through the infamous Fulton County Jail where multiple people have died, those investigations still ongoing into the deaths, including the death of a man who was allegedly eaten alive by bedbugs earlier this year.

Even the sheriff here in Fulton County, Pat Labat, has admitted publicly that the situation there in the facility is deteriorating but he does that the former president along with 18 defendants will have to make their way through the Fulton County Jail.

Meanwhile, we're getting a glimpse at the potential defense strategy for the former president. His former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, filing a petition, I should say, to try to get this venue moved from state court to federal court. He and his lawyers are arguing that because of these allegations, these claims, these criminal charges against him were committed while he was working as a federal official, that the criminal proceeding should be heard in a federal court rather than a state court.

And here's what they saying in part with that filing, saying, quote, nothing Mr. Meadows' has alleged in the indictment to have done is criminal, per se, arranging Oval Office meetings, contact state officials on the president's behalf, visiting a State Department building and setting up a phone call for the president. One would expect a chief of staff to the president of the United States to do these sorts of things.

Mark Meadows, of course, among the 19 defendants, he has been charged with a racketeering charge as well as a violation of public oath of office. He says, at a later date, he will file a longer petition, a longer petition, but he is trying to get this case moved from state court to federal court. Sara?

SIDNER: It's interesting. There will be questions as to whether his case sets up the potential of Donald Trump doing the same thing and potentially others.

Nick Valencia, thank you for all your reporting there outside at the courthouse in Atlanta. John?

BERMAN: All right. With us now, CNN Senior Political Commentator and former Republican Congressman from Illinois Adam Kinzinger.

Congressman, you were on the January 6th committee in the House. And I'm talking about that because one of the arguments that Donald Trump and his cohorts are making is that the timing of what's happening in Georgia, and even the federal case is suspicious.

[10:05:06]

Why has it taken so long, they say, to bring these charges?

You talked about almost all of the things that are in these indictments as part of the January 6th committee like a year-and-a- half ago in some cases. So, how frustrating is it for you that it's taken so long? ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it is frustrating. I'm frustrated at the -- I guess at the time it took the DOJ took to do this stuff. It really seemed like after our committee had done its work, and, frankly, after our first hearing, that's when it seemed like DOJ really stepped up. It's not Jack Smith's issue, but whoever makes those calls.

So -- but, yes. I mean, look, it takes a long time. I mean, what we were able to do on the committee was get a lot information, put the story out in front of the American people, and I think it's important for history, it's important for all those reasons to have the story in front of people. But there were a lot of like kind of threads that we couldn't finish because there were a lot of people that wouldn't come in to speak to us and that resulted in some fights in court and us trying to get them charged with ignoring Congress.

And so for these, whether it's Fani Willis, whether it's Jack Smith, to be able to pursue some of those questions, and some of those lines of questions, I don't know how long that would take, but I'm glad they're going to be able to do that.

So, yes, I'm frustrated by the length of the investigation, but I think the ultimate thing is that we get to the truth.

BERMAN: So, the other Republicans run against Donald Trump for the nomination right now, you say they have two choices. What are those choices?

KINZINGER: Yes, you have two choices. Either like run against the former president, who is the frontrunner and take him on, on issues like that you disagree with him, but particularly issues where he's corrupt, issues where he's corrupt. He's out on bail, soon to be four times, like out on bail. Think about that.

There is nobody running for president that truly, if you put them on the truth serum, would say that Donald Trump is anything but corrupt, but they are scared to death of him.

So, choice one is either take him on, or, choice two, just endorse him and get out of the race. Listen, free political advice. If your goal is to be vice president or you just want a cushy cabinet position and you want to get your time in government and now you can be a cabinet, people call you Mr. Cabinet member or whatever that is for the rest of your life, like then just get out and endorse Donald Trump now. But quit pretending like you're running for president when you're too scared to take on the frontrunner. That's just free advice from me.

BERMAN: What's the right way to do that? Chris Christie on Twitter and anywhere else where he appears will call Donald Trump a coward. What does he get from that?

KINZINGER: Well, Donald Trump is a coward. And I think what Chris Christie gets, is it the winning strategy? Who knows? There is a point in the next year that Donald Trump is -- like something happens and his base kind of admits that he's a coward, which they kind of know, but if you admit it, then you have to admit that for six years, you supported a coward. So, I think it takes a little bit.

But I think if that would happen to happen, he's going to be the guy. People are going to be like, Chris Christie has the courage to keep speaking out. But for the rest of them, look, I get it because I've been there. If you're the only one speaking out, people point at you and people will say, well, you're wrong.

That's why I've got to tell you, everybody has to speak out. That's what leadership is about. Leadership is about leading. If everybody would tell people, look, this is corrupt, I guarantee you in a week, the base will turn and say, yes, Donald Trump is a corrupt man. But when their leaders are telling them that this is just the DOJ and this is the Biden administration going after Trump, leaders they trust are telling them that. So, it's not really surprising that they believe it.

BERMAN: I can conceive or imagine a 2008 version of Adam Kinzinger, if not directly endorsing Rudy Giuliani for president, at least being supportive of the concept of Rudy Giuliani and the type of politician that he was. How do you explain how he went from that to where he is now, charged in Georgia with crimes?

KINZINGER: You know, I'm not sure if it was a book I was reading or an article or just listening to somebody on a podcast talking about Rudy Giuliani that said, they asked him, don't you care about your legacy? You were America's mayor after 9/11. He was kind of just like a moderate Republican that was talking about unity. And I think he had said something to the extent like, who cares about legacy? What matters is the here and now. That's the best way to describe it.

If I didn't care, frankly, about like what the Kinzinger legacy would be or what my son would see some day.

[10:10:05]

It would have been much easier for me just to pretend like everything Donald Trump was doing was great and they go on the T.V. circuit defending him and all that. That's the easiest thing to do. But I care about my legacy, and I think he just doesn't.

I don't know how a man who had done such great things up to one point, took down the organized mob, why he was able to just throw it all out of the window. In a way, it's sad. He's responsible for his behavior so I don't like feel sympathy for him, but it's a little sad that a man could have been -- I mean, we could have statues of him everywhere. I just don't understand it.

BERMAN: Adam Kinzinger, great to see you this morning. Thank you very much. Kate?

BOLDUAN: That's a really interesting perspective.

Let's talk about that, Rudy Giuliani. Being criminally charged in Georgia isn't the only trouble that is facing Giuliani, Trump's former attorney. CNN has now learned that even before this indict, Giuliani is staring down hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal bills and more related to his work for Donald Trump after the 2020 election.

Still, Giuliani isn't shying away from attacking the D.A. in Georgia who he will soon see in court.

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RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: She's a politician and not a lawyer, not an honest, honorable lawyer. This is a ridiculous application of the racketeering statute. There's probably no one that knows it better than I do.

This is not meant for election disputes. I mean, this is ridiculous what she's doing. Also, I don't know if she realizes because she seems like a pretty incompetent, sloppy prosecutor.

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BOLDUAN: Let's get over to CNN's Katelyn Polantz. Katelyn, tell us more about this reporting that you've uncovered about what the current state of Rudy Giuliani's financial situation is.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, Kate. Rudy Giuliani doesn't even have the money to respond to some of the demands that are being made upon him as these lawsuits related to the 2020 election move forward.

So, we saw some court filings this week. There's even a hearing happening right now in New York in the defamation case that Smartmatic, the voting machine company, had filed against Giuliani for making false statements about them and the 2020 election.

And in that case, he has all of his electronic records held by an archiving company, a data holder called Trust Point. And that company needs to have him pay for searches so that he can turn over his records in these lawsuits, not just the Smartmatic lawsuit but in others.

And in this court filing on Monday, he doesn't have $15,000 or somewhere between $15,000 and $23,000 to pay them to run the search he needed to run. He also doesn't have the money to keep his electronic records hosted by this company. They charge about $20,000 a month, every month, to keep his records active and alive so that he can use them in these lawsuits to defend himself.

On top of that, he has other bills. He just had a court order recently where he has to pay cell phone bills that went unpaid in 2020 related to his company. That is not a small amount either. And then there is also on top of that bills that he has to pay for sanctions, for other people's legal fees where he hasn't responded appropriately in these 2020 election lawsuits.

So, Kate, it is a lot of money that he has to pay now and that's just the start if he were to lose these lawsuits and also those criminal cases that cost money to defend, as well.

BOLDUAN: Yes. I mean, $57,000 in phone bills that have gone unpaid? I mean, you're right. That is no small amount and that's just one little element of what he's up against.

Great to see you, Katelyn, great reporting, thank you. Sara?

SIDNER: Joining us now, Nick Akerman, former assistant and special Watergate prosecutor and former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York.

I am going to start with this and then we will also get to Giuliani. Why is Mark Meadows trying to move the case from state court to federal court?

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: Well, I think the reason for doing that is trying and get it out of completely on a Fulton County jury so that they would have a broader jury to pick from that would include a lot more conservative Republicans from rural areas. I think that's the primary reason to do it.

The reason Mark Meadows, I think, is a very strategic decision among the defendants. Of all of the defendants, he probably would, on the surface, seem to have the best chance to do this because he was basically a gopher for Donald Trump.

So, the question is going to be when he goes before and files this in federal court whether he was acting within the scope of his duties as Donald Trump's main person, as his secretary and whatever it is.

[10:15:03]

I mean, he was the guy that was supposed to be running that.

And I think what the prosecutors will do will come back with very hard evidence showing that Mark Meadows actually committed crimes. And that will do it because the standard here is whether or not he was acting in the scope of his duties as chief of staff for Donald Trump. And, certainly, one of those duties is not committing crimes. Committing a crime is not within his duties. In fact, this is the same thing that judge Hellerstein denied Donald Trump in the New York case.

SIDNER: Nick, I want to ask you about that, because there are a host of Republicans making the arguments that the state court should not be able to try a former president. But Trump is a private citizen, as is Mark Meadows. Is this a political argument that we're seeing play out or is this an actual legal argument that holds water?

AKERMAN: Oh, no, it's an actual legal argument. There is a statute that permits government officials to remove cases to federal court, but there's a standard to be met. And the standard is whether or not he did the actions that are being complained of were in the course of his normal duties in that official capacity.

And that's where Mark Meadows is going to fall short. It's where Donald Trump fell short before Judge Hellerstein in New York, who found that paying -- hush money to a porn star and covering it up by falsifying business records was not within the scope of the duties of the president of the United States. I think the same decision, the same decision is going to be precedent here for the federal court to do the exact same thing and deny it, but, basically, Mark Meadows is the stalking horse for the other defendants in the case.

SIDNER: To see if he gets it done, then they might follow suit. Nick Akerman, thank you so much for all of that. And very interesting to note what happened in the state case in New York. You're saying that same kind of precedent may be set to keep the state case in Georgia from going to the federal court. I appreciate you. John?

BERMAN: Newly released video shows a Denver police officer shooting and killing a man who was holding a marker. Police say, the officer believed it was a knife.

A huge explosion in Southern Ukraine overnight as Russian drones hit a critical port.

The death toll on Maui is climbing and the families of wildfire victims are speaking out.

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JONATHAN MASAKI SHIROMA, COUSIN MISSING: I know how painstaking this is. I know the hurt. I know just the deep void we all feel because losing Lahaina, losing our family members is something so personal.

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BOLDUAN: So, this morning, we are getting a new perspective on the devastation in Maui. New video coming in as reporters and news crews are finally getting access to the epicenter of the tragedy.

What's left behind in Lahaina is truly just hard to believe still, miles and miles of rubble and ash. Essentially, no structure really left untouched by the flames. Rescue crews tasked with finding and identifying the remains of victims are talking now about the weight of the task before them.

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FRANK TAYLOR, NEVADA TASK FORCE 1: Sometimes you have to compartmentalize stuff. It doesn't go away, but you just have to work through it. If we don't do our job, then the families can't get any closure.

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BOLDUAN: 106 sets of remains, I guess we have to call them, have been found so far. Officials say the number will continue to rise. And the painful task of finding the remains isn't the only challenge. The delicate job then of identifying the dead when there isn't much left behind in some cases is also becoming a herculean task, investigators asking family members to provide DNA samples to help.

As of this morning, only five sets of remains have been identified. The governor is warning this process could take weeks, if not longer, a heart-wrenching wait now for so many people.

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MICHAEL RICHTER, TRYING TO I.D. STEPFATHER: I've run into a lot of people that I understand are tired. I'm tired, too. I haven't slept in six days. And like I said, I just want to identify his body and put him at rest.

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BOLDUAN: We also just learned this morning that President Biden and the first lady will be flying to Maui on Monday. The president said he wanted to hold off on visiting in order to avoid interfering with the recovery efforts that we see continue.

Let's go to Maui. CNN's Mike Valerio, he's there for us still. Mike, where do things stand with the recovery process of the dead and also identifying the remains of the victims there?

MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, I can tell you that the thought of this process, not just taking weeks, but rather taking months for the family members and the people from across the United States who are on the ground trying to give a family that they've met at the beginning of their day a sense of closure, eventually.

It is casting such a pall over this island that is known for blooming with life. It is not something I never expected to see in all my days here in Maui. It is just leaving to dispirited families, like you heard at the beginning of our segment right there.

So, to further illustrate what is happening here in terms of finding and identifying human remain, there are, Kate, 101 sets of human remains that have been found but have not identified. And in that group there are only 13, only 13 of them that have DNA sequences that are complete enough, are assembled to be potentially matched when a family member does a cheek swab or gives a skin sample.

[10:25:13]

So, to that point, there are more scientists who are joining this effort.

But there is a calling of ours, a friend, a journalist who works in one of the local stations in Honolulu, and he lost not one but four family members and is submitting DNA, his family is, to find a cousin who is still missing. Watch.

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SHIROMA: I have another cousin that remains missing right now. And I believe I already said earlier about the painstaking task of identifying is now what's going to be the focus. And another cousin did provide a DNA sample just so that when this, sadly, probably will be the inevitable conclusion of what's going on to identify this other cousin that lost -- that we still have not heard from.

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VALERIO: In terms of the search for human remain, Kate, Governor Green hopes that most of the burn area will be searched, it will be nearly completed, up to 90 percent by the end of this weekend, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Mike Valerio, thank you for being there for us.

John, four members of his family missing.

BERMAN: It's a small community. You get the sense of how tight-knit it really is.

BOLDUAN: Now getting cameras in there for the first time to see it, not just from those drone shots, getting the perspective of like this was a driveway, this was a driveway, this is a driveway.

BERMAN: There's so much lost and so much pain to spread around.

And it's worth noting that parts of Maui are still burning. CNN's Bill Weir takes a closer look.

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BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: This is the Kula neighborhood in Maui. We are several miles from the destruction in Lahaina. And this is still an active fire zone. Only about 60 percent of this upcountry fire has been contained. And we can actually see at least two hot spots around here, which explains the yellow helicopter.

That is the Maui Fire Department. He's taking bucket loads of water from a nearby swimming pool of a home that was completely burned down. They're refilling it with a fire hydrant. But the fire department is stretched so thin here that it's really sort of do it yourself, DIY fire protection, which explains this setup.

This homeowner was gone. His wife was here, but she fired up their improvised sort of fire prevention system and they're spraying it as far as they can down into the ravine here with the fear that some of these hot spots might whip up.

There are a couple of storms brewing in the Pacific, nothing near to hurricane or the Storm Dora that created all of the firestorm winds, but still anything that would kick this up is one more horrible thing to worry about here.

Meanwhile, in Lahaina, officials say about only a third of that area has been searched with cadaver dogs. About a dozen souls have been identified through DNA, four identified and notified families. And then they've got dozens of other families who are now giving DNA samples because they have loved ones who are missing. So, it's agony, knowing maybe the worst that's happened and hoping they'll get a better result. Here again comes another drop.

And in addition to the fire department, sprinklers, we actually met a couple of guys, volunteers who are putting hot spots with bottled water, sort of bushwhacking through the dry brush. One of them actually burned a foot when slid into still smoldering ash.

So, that's the scene here in upcountry. People understand here that there's a lot of action and sympathy happening in Lahaina, but this is an ongoing story. And we're going to stay on it for you all day here.

I'm Bill Weir, CNN, in Maui.

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BERMAN: Thanks to Bill for that. The sprinklers going off right behind him, truly remarkable.

For more information about how you can help Hawaii wildfire victims, go to cnn.com/impact or text Hawaii to 707070 to donate. Sara?

SIDNER: Ahead, in Denver, a police officer shoots and kills a man she thought had just grabbed a knife. It turned out it was only a marker. How did that happen? We have newly released bodycam video to take a look at ahead.

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