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Fatal Shooting in Denver Involved an Officer Who Mistook Marker for Knife; How Recent Trump Indictment Affects Georgia Voters; "Rust" Gun's Trigger Had to Be Pulled, According to Forensic Report. Aired 10:30-11a ET
Aired August 16, 2023 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:30:00]
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: In Colorado, a 9-1-1 call about a domestic dispute ended with an officer shooting and killing a man. The officer said to have believe that the man charging at her with a knife, it turns out the man was holding a marker, not a knife. The shooting happened this month in Denver. And police just released the body camera footage from the incident.
The officers were responding to a 9-1-1 call from someone saying a man may have pushed his wife who was in a wheelchair on to the ground. The caller also reported that the man was going after his teenage son and yelling could be heard. When officers arrived, you can see a woman sitting on the street against the curb with an empty wheelchair nearby. She's asked -- she asks for an ambulance and that is when things really unraveled. We're going to play this for you, but a warning first, you may find this video disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't. Don't pull your gun out on my husband, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Do you need EMS?
[10:35:00]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just need -- I just need an ambulance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me see your hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brandon, no. Pull up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pull out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop. Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gene (ph). Gene (ph)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go. Let's go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 32 Bakers --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- with a knife. Hey, Brandon, look at me. Stop. Hey. Brandon. Move. Move. Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not shoot him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't. Don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: Police say, several independent witnesses said that they believe that the man was armed with a weapon when he approached the officer. Joining me now is CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller.
John, I flinched when I see that that child is standing and -- as the scene is playing out. What do you see? Walk me through what you see here.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So, I see a few things. I watched this video a number of times. First you see the police arrive and you see the woman sitting on the curb next to the wheelchair. What are the first words she utters to the police officers is, don't pull a gun out on my husband. She is giving an indicator that he is overwrought about something.
Where is he at that moment? We see him on the video. He's at the car with the door open. He's getting something out of the car. Now, the police are going on alert now, which is, he sees the police are here, he's getting something out of the car. What is that? The first officer says, show me your hands. What does he do with this object? He goes behind his back. He's shifting it from hand to hand. He then cups it in one hand, and he moves towards the officer who's saying, show me your hands. Pivots left towards the other officer.
Now, the first officer is holding a taser, that's a non-lethal weapon. That's bright yellow. He runs towards the officer who is holding the gun, which is the lethal weapon. And then in the last frame that we saw on our video, notice he -- he's got his hands cupped together, extended forward, as if he has a weapon and he's charging at her when she fires.
Remember in the background, what do we see? We see a little boy and a woman with a laundry cart moving very slowly, so that's another issue. So, it's an incident that happened very fast. Nobody involved in that incident, particularly these two officers got to play it back on slow motion while it was happening. They're making instant decisions.
Ron Thomas, the chief of the Denver Police. Somebody I've met a number of times and know pretty well, you know, characterized this right out of the gate as this is a terrible tragedy.
BOLDUAN: Yes. But you know what, let me play --
MILLER: This is a 36-year-old man, Brandon Cole, who has no criminal record. And, you know, he was killed there.
BOLDUAN: You mentioned the chief, I want to play a couple of things that we heard from Denver Police after this. The chief is the second sound bite. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMMANDER MATT CLARK, MAJOR CRIMES, DENVER POLICE: When he was within several feet of the officer, the officer explained that she feared she would be stabbed and potentially overtaken by the subject.
CHIEF RON THOMAS, DENVER POLICE: When she finally deploys her duty weapon, the person is so close to her that her view of that young child and the other person are not even clear to her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: You see as what we're seeing play out, and what you've seen in the video, and who we talked to, you see that this could be signs of an instance that this may be an instance of suicide by cop. What signs do you look for in this?
MILLER: When you're looking at that, you start to examine the -- basically the offender characteristics, which is what is that person doing? When that person, you know, pulls a magic marker out of a car and then cups it like a knife and then rapidly charges at an officer who is clearly holding a gun, you have to ask yourself, what is that person thinking?
Since 2000, increasing numbers of studies have identified this phenomenon of people doing what they call suicide by cop or police- assisted suicide where they create a situation where they know the training and the procedures are likely to involve them getting shot by police. Most of these incidents, the person has a weapon, but in -- somewhere between 20 and 36 percent of these incidents it's a fake weapon. It's a simulated weapon. It's something that they claim is a weapon. And, you know, police have been grappling with this for a while which is how do you identify that in progress?
BOLDUAN: Yes, absolutely. I mean, the -- we know that Denver police are continuing their investigation. Colorado Bureau of Investigation --
MILLER: The D.A.
BOLDUAN: The -- and the D.A. is going to -- is looking in reviewing this, as well. So, we'll see what more comes of this. Devastating video though to see, nonetheless. It's good to have you here, John. Thank you.
MILLER: Thanks.
BOLDUAN: John? JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: All right. As Donald Trump and his co-defendants prepare to turn themselves in at a Georgia jail, some new data with surprising insight on the political implications.
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[10:40:00]
SARA SIDNER, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: Donald Trump has been indicted four times in five months. So, what do Georgia voters think about his bid for the White House this go round since this is the last place where he was indicted in a sweeping indictment? There is no better person to help us understand this than CNN Senior Data Reporter Harry Enten.
I haven't seen you in too long, Harry. I'm so happy to see you.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATE REPORTER: I know. I miss you. I miss you, but I come bearing data.
SIDNER: I'm so glad you're here. I love that you brought us data. What does this first slide tell us?
ENTEN: Yes. Look, I think what you should take away from the first slide is Georgia has been moving rapidly towards the Democrats over the last few election cycles. So, this is the swing to the Democrats and presidential election from 2004 to 2020.
[10:45:00]
Look at the shift towards -- in Georgia toward Democrats.
SIDNER: Wow.
ENTEN: 17 points. Look what it is nationwide, just seven points. So, Georgia has been moving to the left rapidly compared to the nation as a whole over the last few election cycles.
SIDNER: That's really stark when you look at Georgia versus nationwide. Let's talk about what happened in 2022, in the midterms there and what it tells us about how voters feel about Donald Trump in Georgia.
ENTEN: Yes. So, look, this is Trump-endorsed candidates won this often in 2022 GOP primaries for Congress and governor. Look at what we see in the state of Georgia. Those candidates won 67 percent of the time. Now, that's obviously still more than 50 percent.
SIDNER: Yes.
ENTEN: But it's significantly less than what we saw nationwide, 95 percent where Trump endorsed candidates basically just won every single time. In Georgia, that was not the case. And remember, of course, in gubernatorial race, Trump did not endorse Brian Kemp. He endorsed his Republican opponent.
SIDNER: That's right.
ENTEN: There were two house races where Trump endorsed where the Republican candidates did not win. Nationwide, it was a sure thing, basically, of Trump endorsed. But in Georgia, there's far more of an anti-Trump sentiment within the Republican Party itself.
SIDNER: It's really interesting because he's still attacking Brian Kemp.
ENTEN: Yes.
SIDNER: And Brian Kemp is responding when it comes to how elections were handled there. What is the next thing that gives you some insight into Donald Trump and voters, those who are college graduates.
ENTEN: Yes. So, you know, if you want to look among the Trump skeptical voters within the Republican Party, they are those with a college degree. So, Republicans who think Trump has committed serious federal crime, look at this, 27 percent of those Republicans who have a college degree believe that in fact he committed serious federal crimes, versus just 12 percent among those who don't have a college degree.
Now, why is this split noticeable? Why is it so important that those with a college degree are more likely to be against Trump when it comes to this issue? Because, I want you to take a look here. OK. Trump voters with college degree in the 2020 states that were the closest one that Biden won. OK? Look where Georgia is in the sixth closest states, it's right near the top at 35 percent.
SIDNER: Wow.
ENTEN: Only Arizona has more Republican voters, Trump voters in 2020 who had a college degree. Far more in Georgia and, say, Wisconsin 25 percent. So, if we're looking for more movement away from Donald Trump in the 2024 election, Georgia might be a place to start along with Arizona because those are the voters who are most likely think that Trump, in fact, committed a serious federal crime.
SIDNER: And those two states were some of the most hard-fought states, some of the states that are mentioned in some of these indictments that Trump is accused of trying to overturn illegally.
ENTEN: Yes.
SIDNER: Harry Enten, always good to see you.
ENTEN: Nice to see you.
SIDNER: Do not go so long --
ENTEN: I won't --
SIDNER: -- without coming to see me.
ENTEN: We'll hang out in the weekend (INAUDIBLE). SIDNER: All right. Fine.
Kate.
BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, a newly released firearms report is raising questions about Alec Baldwin's account of what happened on the set of "Rust." And whether the actor could be charged yet again. We'll be back.
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[10:50:00]
BERMAN: So, this morning we're learning that Alec Baldwin could face new charges. We should say, charges once again in the shooting death that happened on the set of his film "Rust." A new forensic report found that the trigger on the gun used in the deadly shooting, the report says, that trigger had to have been pulled. Now, Baldwin had initially been charged, but those charges were dropped.
CNN's Josh Campbell covering for this. Josh, explain what's going on here.
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, if prosecutors hold to what they said earlier this summer, the potential for charges to be reinstated against Alec Baldwin just increased significantly. Just to remind our viewers, so he was originally charged, as you mentioned, with involuntary manslaughter in the death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. That charge was dropped. The law enforcement source told me that that's because investigators discovered that the gun that was used in that shooting had been modified.
Now, I will read you part of what the prosecutors said in a filing in June. This is so important. They wrote that, the charges against Alec Baldwin were dismissed without prejudice because of possible malfunction of the gun. If it is determined that the gun did not malfunction, charges against Mr. Baldwin will proceed.
Now, the FBI looked at that and initially said that, look, it could not have gone off if someone did not pull the trigger. What state officials did in New Mexico was send this to an independent examiner who, essentially, came to the same conclusion of the FBI. I'll read you part of their new report that we just got our hands on. They say that, Although Alec Baldwin repeatedly denies pulling the trigger, given the tests, findings, and observations reported here, the trigger had to be pulled or depressed sufficiently to release the fully cocked or retracted hammer of the evidence revolver.
So, on one hand we have prosecutors saying that, look, if this report determines that the gun did malfunction, we're going to charge Alec Baldwin. We're now learning the report says just that. We'll see what prosecutors do, John.
BERMAN: Yes. And there's another legal aspect here. Yes, Baldwin has always denied he pulled the trigger. Prosecutors said whether the trigger was pulled was key to them dropping the charges initially. But the other side of this is that Baldwin has always said he was told the gun was not loaded. Does this factor into that at all?
CAMPBELL: No, absolutely. And this comes down to the question of who is actually responsible for gun safety? Now, in general, anyone that holds a weapon or points a weapon has to ensure that that is a cleared gun. But we're talking about an actor who's dealing with, you know, dummy rounds. There were people on the set who were responsible for safety. The armorer, the person who was in charge of that gun is facing charges of her own. But Baldwin has, you know, declared his innocence. Take a listen here to what Baldwin told our colleague Chloe Melas last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: I never once said, never, that the gun went off in my hand automatically. I always said I pulled the hammer back and I pulled it back as far as I could.
[10:55:00]
I never took a gun and I point it at somebody and clicked the thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMPBELL: Now, it's worth pointing out finally here that Baldwin does have a strong defense in one area, and that comes down to the weapon itself. Now, when the FBI tested that weapon, the gun ultimately malfunctioned. It broke. So, we can -- all of us hear that if this goes to trial, you know, the words of Baldwin's attorneys telling the jury that, look, sure this new test whenever shiny new parts were put in that gum -- gun, it functioned fine. But go back to the state of that weapon when it was originally tested, it eventually broke. That will certainly cast major questions on the structural integrity of that weapon which could be key to Baldwin's defense.
BERMAN: Yes. So, this new test, it could be a factor, this new analysis, but we'll see if prosecutors want to hang their whole case on it. Josh Campbell, great explanation. Thank you so much.
Sara.
SIDNER: All right. Ahead, Donald Trump and his 18 co-defendants have nine days now to surrender at a jail in Georgia. What the sheriff is saying about how they'll be treated and what we can expect, that's ahead.
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