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Sources: Trump Lawyers, DA Negotiating On Surrender; Legal Bills Burying Giuliani After He Defended Trump; Biden To Tour Maui's Wildfire Devastation Monday. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 16, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Surrender negotiation. Sources tell CNN that Trump's lawyers are in talks now about all the details as we wait for the former president and his co-defendants to turn themselves in in Georgia. We are following all those details.

And new images of the devastation in Hawaii coming in. This is the death toll. Still rising. People await word of those still missing. The head of FEMA will join us to explain what is being done now to help survivors.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And selling the economy. But Are Americans buying? President Biden is set to speak moments from now to tout his economic wins. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: 19 defendants, nine days left. Former President Trump and his indicted co-conspirators in the Georgia election subversion case have until next Friday to turn themselves in on charges that include racketeering and conspiracy. And we have just learned that Trump's lawyers are now negotiating with the Fulton County DA on details for his surrender. Grand Jury handed up the sprawling indictment on Monday night at the Fulton County Courthouse.

That is not where the defendants will surrender though. The sheriff says they will all be booked down the road at the Fulton County Jail. This includes Trump himself.

One of those co-defendants is Trump's post-election lawyer Rudy Giuliani. He says he'll surrender next week. And others, Trump's former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. He is trying to get the case moved to a federal court.

CNN's Alayna Treene is here. Alayna, tell us about the talks underway. Does it give us an indication at all as to when Trump himself will turn himself in?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, that's what we're still trying to learn, Jim. But from my conversations with Donald Trump's team, I've learned that they are in ongoing talks with the Fulton County District Attorney's office about the details of his surrender. And again, those talks are ongoing. But my early reporting and the indications that I am getting from Donald Trump's team is that it seems like it would likely be next week.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

TREENE: But again, this is all fluid and so things could change. But -- and as you mentioned, they -- Donald Trump in addition to the 18 other co-defendants listed in that indictment, they have until next Friday, August 25, at noon to voluntarily surrender themselves before the court. And Donald Trump is expected to do so.

I think one thing as well that's worth noting is next week -- next Wednesday are the Republican debates. Donald Trump's 2024 rivals a lot of those candidates taking the debate stage. And my conversations with Trump's teams now is that it seems like Donald Trump is not going to appear.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

TREENE: But this could all be coinciding around the same time. And so, a lot to look forward to next week.

SCIUTTO: Not going to appear to the debates. He's got to show up in Fulton County, though. This is a remarkable string of months, the fourth time --

TREENE: Right.

SCIUTTO: -- that Trump has had to surrender, following an indictment. What is unique or different about this one here in Fulton County?

TREENE: It is different in Fulton County. I think the process for Donald Trump being arraigned will look different in Georgia than we've seen with the previous three criminal cases. Part of that is that you know the Fulton County sheriff has said that he wants the defendants to be treated like any other defendant in Fulton County.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

TREENE: And that means that they will likely be processed, have their mugshot taken, and be fingerprinted. Again, this -- these are all things that need to be negotiated with Donald Trump's team as well as Secret Service. There's also questions of what will the negotiations around bonds look like. Things that we haven't really seen so far in the previous cases. So, all things to be watching for Jim.

SCIUTTO: Would that mugshot become public or is that also a subject to negotiation?

TREENE: I -- that's something we're trying to figure out. But we've known that Donald Trump has fundraised off of a fake mug shot before.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

TREENE: So, it might be something that his team wants.

SCIUTTO: He might run with that. Alayna Treene, thanks so much. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's dig deeper now with the former federal prosecutor and former lead investigator for the January Six Select Committee, Tim Heaphy. Tim, thanks for being with us. One of the strengths of trying a RICO case is that it puts pressure on lower-level co-defendants to potentially flip, right, to collaborate with prosecutors, and provide evidence. Is that what you would be aiming for if you were prosecuting this case?

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TIM HEAPHY, FORMER LEAD INVESTIGATOR, JANUARY SIX SELECT COMMITTEE: Yes. In a RICO case, all defendants are responsible for the acts of others as long as it's reasonably foreseeable to them. So, people don't fully appreciate that they could be held legally responsible, charged with, and sentenced for things that are done in furtherance of a goal that they shared, but things that they did not personally do. So, it certainly creates a great deal of leverage on President Trump's co-defendants, who are less culpable in -- within the racketeering enterprise as charged to cooperate. To make a business exchange with the prosecutor to provide information in exchange for leniency.

SANCHEZ: Now, you've dealt with some of these names as part of your time on the January six committee and that investigation. How might you approach them about cooperating? Are there any individuals that you think might be amenable to that?

HEAPHY: Impossible to say. You know, some of them were cooperative with the select committee to a point. You know we did extensive interviews of Rudy Giuliani, for example. He asserted privileges but did provide some information. So, I won't speculate as to who may or may not be amenable to it.

In terms of approach, it's very simple, right? It's -- you sort of show cards as a prosecutor and say, here is what we have, which suggests you know your guilt that will be presented to a jury at trial. And then the defendant has an opportunity to evaluate that and potentially cut his or her losses by trying to work out some kind of cooperation agreement.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

HEAPHY: I don't know whether that's already ongoing or whether that will ensue hereafter. But it certainly would be standard practice for those kinds of discussions to take place.

SANCHEZ: Right. So, how about Mark Meadows' effort to move this case up to federal court? He thinks he can get it dismissed in a higher court because he was acting as Trump's chief of staff when all this took place. That's his argument. How would that process work, and is it likely to happen?

HEAPHY: Yes. It's a pretty obscure federal statute that provides for removal to a federal court of a state criminal case if it's against federal officials and they're acting in their official capacity. All it would do is move the forum for this trial to federal court. It wouldn't dismiss it. He may have other purported bases to move to dismiss the case, but it would simply change the venue.

So, it looks like this case is headed for a trial likely in Fulton County, I think, unlikely to be moved to federal court. The response from Fani Willis's team will be, sure he was White House Chief of Staff but these were all things he did well beyond his official duties but actually were part of a criminal conspiracy beyond his official duties. And that's what the judge will have to evaluate.

SANCHEZ: Sure. And Fani Willis is confirming that she wants to try all of these defendants together and she's requesting a trial within six months. Do you think that's a realistic scenario?

HEAPHY: No. Very difficult to try 19 people just logistically in a courtroom with each of them having at least one lawyer. Just physically it's hard to do. I would expect that some of them may decide to plead guilty. If not, there may be a severance of some defendants from others.

I indicted a case in federal court a RICO case years ago with 17 defendants and the judge essentially split it in half and tried the most culpable defendants first, and then the second group of defendants second. So, you may expect some sort of balkanization of the list, if not all, not a sufficient number of them resolve their cases prior to trial.

SANCHEZ: Yes. It could get incredibly complicated with so many defendants. Tim Heaphy, we got to leave the conversation there. Thank you so much.

HEAPHY: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: We want to zero in now on one of Donald Trump's Georgia co- defendants, the former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani says that he will surrender to authorities in Fulton County next week. It comes as we're learning new details about the former New York mayor's mounting legal bills and how they're draining him of cash.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz has been covering that story for us. So, Katelyn, Giuliani's attorneys say that he's facing hundreds of thousands of dollars in just legal fees and paying a lot of money just for electronic records keeping.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE & CRIME REPORTER: Yes, it's a lot of money that he needs to pay now. He has to have cash to pay now because he's getting court orders and sanctions that are piling up. And also these fees just to fight litigation that is still ongoing, all of it -- most of it actually relating back to the 2020 election. There is an unpaid phone bill of $57,000 related to his company that he also needs to bill.

SANCHEZ: Quite a phone bill.

POLANTZ: Yes, right. But there are several cases right now that he's facing that are lawsuits related to statements he made after the 2020 election from Smartmatic, Dominion voting, those voting machines, as well as these election workers in Georgia that he spoke about and was spreading false information about.

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And he's conceding that he has said false information, at least about the Georgia election workers because he can't fight the case because he can't pay to fight the case. And there are subpoenas coming out him from these plaintiffs in these lawsuits saying we need you to produce evidence, we need to keep moving on this case, we've gotten the green light from the judge to go forward, and he doesn't have the money to do that.

And so, he's in court staring down the possibility that he could lose these substantial defamation lawsuits related to the 2020 election that judges -- one judge has already been asked to essentially rule against him. Default judgment against him --

SANCHEZ: Wow.

POLANTZ: -- which can be quite a costly result from him. And right now, what he's doing in the pile of bills he's being buried under it's just keeping it -- trying to keep afloat in court. Now, whether judges are buying this is another question.

He is clearly trying to say he has financial hardship, but he doesn't want to give specific details or provide any evidence that shows that and he is listing his apartment or co-op apartment in Manhattan, $6.5 million on the market right now for sale. But it is a question of how does he keep afloat there? And then also, how does he keep paying legal bills in criminal investigations?

SANCHEZ: Yes. At least one judge has expressed doubt about the question of his financial well-being. I also wanted to get some reporting from you that you have about the 2020 -- the effort to overturn the 2020 election investigation by the special counsel. And it appears that Jack Smith has Donald Trump's Twitter DMs.

POLANTZ: He apparently does now. So, Donald Trump famously didn't e- mail. He didn't text especially when he was in the White House as president. And yet Twitter confirmed in court in a sealed proceeding back in February that, yes, Donald Trump did have direct messages associated with his account @realDonaldTrump.

Now, whether that was just people messaging him, or it was him messaging people, or were other people having access to his account messaging? Big question. We don't know what they actually got. But there had been this sealed warrant, where the prosecutors looking at January six and Donald Trump, they went after Donald Trump's Twitter account, wanted all the data there.

Twitter did say yes, there are direct messages. They apparently got those. And right now in the indictment, we just see public tweets as part of the allegations against Donald Trump. We'll have to wait until trial or as this investigation progresses to see if there was anything really juicy in those DMs.

SANCHEZ: We know you'll be keeping an eye out. Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Joining me now to discuss is Ambassador John Bolton. He was Donald Trump's National Security Adviser. Ambassador, thanks for taking the time this afternoon.

AMBASSADOR JOHN BOLTON, FORMER DONALD TRUMP'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Glad to be with you.

SCIUTTO: I'm going to dispense with the word unprecedented. We broke that word a long time ago. But here we are. Four approaching criminal trials in the midst of a presidential campaign and those trials involving the leading GOP candidate for the nomination. I wonder. What does your party look like on the other side of this regardless of the outcome?

BOLTON: Well, I think the outcome is everything. I mean, I know news channels will beat every detail of this into the ground. But I think the one thing that's going to change people's minds is a conviction, which I think would be an earthquake in the political environment, or on the other end, an acquittal or a hung jury, which Trump would spin essentially as an acquittal that could give him the Republican nomination and could give him the election in November of 2024.

I think the problem for the Republican Party, let's just take the classified documents case tentatively scheduled for the end of May. That's after most of the Republican primaries and caucuses.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BOLTON: So, to make the point to Republican primary voters you've got to say, think about the potential that if you vote for Donald Trump, by the time we come to our convention in August, he could be a convicted felon. And so, do you really want to vote for Donald Trump even if you don't mind voting for a convicted felon for president?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BOLTON: And I think a lot more Republicans will be bothered by that than people think. The broader public is certainly going to be bothered from it. And it could be catastrophic for the Republican Party.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Let me ask you this. You told my colleague, Laura Coates, a few weeks ago that August could be an important point for the Republican Party. If candidates had not by this time shown an ability to lead Trump, but -- to beat Trump, that they should get out of the race, in effect coalesced around a genuine challenger. We haven't seen that -- we haven't seen that yet. Do you see that still as possible?

BOLTON: Sure.

SCIUTTO: And do you see someone who has emerged as at least a potential challenger?

[14:15:09] BOLTON: Sure. I think the August 23 debate is going to be a potentially pivotal moment. And I think, for example, Mayor Suarez of Miami, who is not qualified for the debate stage himself has already said if you don't qualify for that first debate, maybe you should get out. And I think a lot of people will be looking to see if anybody catches fire on the debate stage. And if they don't, I do think the pressure to win over the field will be substantial.

There are other candidates who could come in. Governor Youngkin Virginia, Governor Kemp of Georgia, that's possible, too. But the fact is that to clarify the race to be able to give people a chance who don't want Donald Trump who I think are a much higher percentage of the party that are indicated in the -- in the national polls, that field needs to be called.

SCIUTTO: You have spoken publicly -- you've written publicly about Trump as president as it relates to international affairs and national security and decisions you described as dangerous and the potential of his return. How does the world see the current environment here in the U.S. politically with Trump still is the faraway favorite for the GOP nomination, four criminal trials, his possible return? What are our allies and adversaries thinking as they watch this?

BOLTON: Well, I've talked to people all over the world. And I think from the point of view of our friends, they're pretty disturbed about the prospect Trump might come back. The threat he poses to NATO, and to other alliances.

I have to say. They're also pretty upset about the prospect of Joe Biden, who isn't on the job 24/7, or Kamala Harris being elected from the Democratic side. So, I can't really do much with what the Democrats decide to do. But to me, it's just a further indication that to solve the Trump problem, it's got to be solved by Republicans, and we need to find somebody who can -- who can beat Trump, which I think is doable.

It's just with these trials coming up. You have to have a double bank shot as in pool to be able to assess what the risk might be if you're voting before the trials have taken place. That's why I think the two federal trials are the best ones to bring forward. And if I had my druthers in a perfect world, I tried to classify documents case first.

SCIUTTO: Ambassador Bolton, we'll be watching that and we'll be watching this upcoming debate as well. Thanks so much for taking the time.

BOLTON: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: Boris.

SANCHEZ: Some survivors of Hawaii's devastating wildfires are now getting a look at the ashes of what was once their homes. The head of FEMA joins us next to explain what the government is doing to help them. And later, President Biden's pitch on Bidenomics. Can he convince voters that his plan is working? This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Don't go anywhere. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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SANCHEZ: This Monday, President Biden will visit Maui to tour the site of the deadliest wildfire in modern American history. The death toll is standing at 106 people right now. A number that is expected to rise with several hundred still unaccounted for, according to Hawaii's governor who points out that it could just be a lack of communication in many cases.

185 searchers, 20 cadaver dogs now have the gruesome task of trying to find human remains often in such burned conditions. The governor says they'll be lucky to even find fingerprints. One man who shared his story continues to hold out hope that he will find his stepfather. Listen.

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MICHAEL RICHTER, SEARCHING FOR STEPFATHER: The police really helped. But I have run into a lot of people that I understand are tired. I'm tired too. I haven't slept in six days. And I just -- like I said I just want to identify his body and put him at rest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: We are also continuing to learn about the lives that were lost. The granddaughter of Buddy Jantoc told CNN affiliate KITV that he had a passion for music and cherished his time with his family. She said he sang, played the guitar and drums, and even played music with the band Santana.

We want to get you the latest on the recovery efforts there with FEMA Administrator Deanne Criswell. Administrator, thank you so much for being with us. You have seen a lot of natural disasters and you were in Maui recently. You shared with reporters that you could not have been prepared for what you encountered. I'm wondering what is the biggest challenge you're facing right now in trying to get resources where they need to be.

DEANNE CRISWELL, FEMA ADMINISTRATOR: Hi, Boris. You know, I think you're right. You know, I've responded to so many events, and I don't think nothing can prepare you for what I saw when I was on the ground there. This town is a very close-knit community that just had complete devastation.

You know, I think where we're at right now is the priority is to still find everybody that's unaccounted for. Whether that is going through the burned areas or reconnecting with people that are staying with friends and family somewhere else. So important that we continue to do that process, which is why we're sending in additional teams and additional dogs to help facilitate this process as we continue to work through the town of Lahaina.

We're also you know, working with the governor's team to start to talk about what does the long-term rebuild look like and how do we do it in a way that's going to make this community more resilient. There'll be many phases to this recovery. Those are the bookends of it. We have a lot of work to do in the interim, and we're going to begin continuing to send in resources to support everything that the governor needs as he goes through this.

SANCHEZ: Sure. You spoke to the close-knit nature of that community. Our Bill Weir has been reporting that some folks are essentially taking matters into their own hands, doing do-it-yourself firefighting as well as organizing donated goods, and handing them out to people. There is frustration, though, among members of the community that feel that they've been left behind. What would you say in response?

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CRISWELL: I was there and I had the opportunity to visit a few shelters. And I got to tell you that the outpouring of donations and assistance and volunteers that have come to help is really remarkable and really incredible. There are a lot of resources on the island, but we understand that we have to be able to get out into the community and help get that message out there.

You know, when I was at one of the shelters the other day, you know, I saw the shelter manager and the teams there that they are putting care packages together. And so, as host families are coming by the shelter to pick up goods you know they're just giving them a whole care package of items. Now that the bypass road has also opened, we're going to be able to get our teams into the community to help go door to door, better find people that may have not registered for assistance yet or do need additional support and we can get those resources to them.

We're going to continue to partner with the county in the state of Hawaii to get all of the resources into that community. They are there. We just need to continue to work to make sure that we're reaching everybody.

SANCHEZ: And, Administrator, there is the question of accountability. There have been many reports that there was confusion on the ground, that sirens may not have gone off that should have gone off. What would the administration say to calm folks who were outraged over the response that they've seen?

CRISWELL: Yes, Boris. I mean, this was a really fast-moving horizontal fire. I mean, it was fueled by winds with very little time to react. Firefighters did a tremendous effort of trying to make sure that they could do everything they could to get people out of harm's way, while at the same time knowing that many of them, their residences, were also going to be lost in this fire.

We're going to have plenty of time to look through and if needed support, trying to identify you know kind of the evolution of the events. But right now, we really do need to stay focused on helping those people that have been displaced, and how do we get them the needed assistance that they need today.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Thousands now displaced and without homes. FEMA Administrator Deanne Criswell, we appreciate you giving us that update. Thanks so much.

CRISWELL: Thanks, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Just minutes from now, President Biden is due to speak at the White House. He is expected to pitch his efforts to improve the economy on the anniversary of what's known as the Inflation Reduction Act. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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