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Sources: Trump Expected To Surrender Next Week In GA; Sources: Trump Weighs Alternatives For Debate Night; Hunter Biden A Sensitive Topic That Advisers Rarely Broach With President; CNN: Giuliani Pleaded With Trump To Help Pay Legal Bills; Buffalo Shooting Survivors & Family Of Victim Sue Shooter's Parents, Gun Manufacturers & Social Media Firms. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired August 17, 2023 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

BEN GINSBERG, REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER: Under any semblance of what sort of proper behavior is, that's an election that you can contest and recount.

Donald Trump went ahead and contested and asked for recounts and brought litigation and he lost every one of those 63 cases.

And the bargain in that situation is that you can take the cases to court. You have every right. But in going to court, you also have to abide by the decisions of the court. Donald Trump failed to do that.

Al Gore conceded the election, rightly and properly. And Donald Trump has continued to basically tear down the institution of American elections with unfounded charges.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Stephanie, advisers do not believe Trump will take part in the GOP presidential debate. What do the other GOP candidates need to do to stand out and make themselves a viable alternative to Trump?

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I would say, respectfully, they need to stop kissing up to Donald Trump. That is clearly not working for them.

And the base they are trying to appeal to in order to become the Republican nominee, they like people who are tough, clearly. Look who they are going for in Donald Trump.

But how can people think these nominees are going to stand up to someone like Putin or Kim Jong-un or even some leaders of our allied countries or members of Congress if they won't stand up to this one middle -- actually, older man?

So I think that's something they need to do. They need to change and pivot and not only talk about their policies. They need to call him out and show that they have the backbone, I'll just say that, to do it.

SCIUTTO: We will be watching for that backbone. Stephanie Grisham, Ben Ginsberg, thanks so much to both of you.

Boris?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: CNN is learning that White House advisers are treading lightly around President Biden when it comes to his son, Hunter. Details from insiders when we come back.

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[14:36:32]

SANCHEZ: There is new CNN reporting out this afternoon shining light on one of the most sensitive subjects right now inside the White House, Hunter Biden's legal saga.

Sources say as this plays out amid his father's reelection campaign, it is frustrating the president. But people inside his orbit rarely bring up the topic, worrying advisers this could become a blind spot heading into 2024.

Chief national affairs correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, joins us now.

Jeff, this is your reporting. Advisers close to Biden telling you that the subject is verboten for them.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, the president has long made clear that this is a deeply personal family matter. It's been going on for quite some time.

That decision last week to appoint a special counsel means it will be going on for much longer.

It also means it's likely to get trial unfolding in the midst of a presidential campaign. So of course, that raises questions with voters.

When we talk to a variety of people inside the Biden orbit, they say, look, voters are concerned about the economy, they concerned about inflation and other matters, but is there a worry about this? That This is not something that is discussed with President Biden.

A few advisers, who are very supportive of the president, are wondering if this is a blind spot for the president, is this a blind spot for the campaign?

Right now, they do not believe it's a problem. Right now, they do not believe the voters will hold the president accountable for stuff his son may or may not have done because there is no link.

However, we know Republicans are going to bring this up. Next week, at the Republican presidential debate in Milwaukee, this will be a central debate.

So the question is, has some of the moral high ground that President Biden has had against former President Donald Trump, will that be eroded some?

This is something we will have to keep an eye on. Democrats are keeping an eye on it because they know this is very unusual. It's going to be unfolding at the same time as the presidential campaign.

It's certainly not the same as the situation involving the former president, but it certainly raises questions in the minds of some voters, Republicans at least. Will that spill over to Independents and swing voters? We'll see.

SANCHEZ: Yes, the White House so far hasn't really commented on Hunter Biden's legal saga. That may be harder to do coming closer to November 2024.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.

Jim?

[14:38:42]

SCIUTTO: With his legal troubles mounting, CNN has learned that Rudy Giuliani made a desperate appeal to former President Trump to help pay his legal bills during a meeting in Mar-a-Lago. We'll have those details coming up next on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[14:43:18]

SCIUTTO: Beyond the legal and ethical troubles, new evidence that former Trump attorney, Rudy Giuliani, is facing serious financial troubles. His money problems reportedly are so serious, sources tell CNN Giuliani went to Mar-a-Lago in recent months to personally plead with the former president for help paying his legal bills.

CNN's Paula Reid joins us now with her reporting.

Paula, these bills, enormous. What did he ask for? What did he get?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: A seven-figure legal debt, Jim. So he and his attorney, Robert Costello, went to Florida in late April to make their pitch to the former president about why he should help them out.

We learned they had multiple meetings and they walked away with some sort of implied assurance of assistance. But in a very Trump way, he did not commit to a specific amount or a specific timeline.

One month after these conversations, a Trump-aligned political action committee did pay over $300,000 to settle one of Giuliani's many legal debts.

Now going forward, it's unclear if he will get any additional money. And we are told, as of now, he has not received any other assistance.

SCIUTTO: That is some, not even half of what he goes to a seven-figure amount. Are there concerns about the consequences of this within Trump's world?

REID: Yes, absolutely, Jim. We have learned that advisers who are close to the former president believe it is in his interest to help Giuliani and keep him in the fold.

They have learned a lot from what happened with Michael Cohen, who went from being Trump's fixers to one of his most public critics and provided a lot of information that set off investigations.

[14:45:01]

And when it comes to Rudy Giuliani and other people in the inner circle, there are people pressing Trump to keep him close. These folks could potentially -- Rudy Giuliani is a complicated witness -- but could potentially be helpful to prosecutors.

But at this point, it's unclear the extent to which Rudy Giuliani will cooperate in any of these investigations.

He is mentioned -- obviously, he is an unnamed co-defendant in the federal case and the charge in Georgia. Jim, when you have this much legal debt and you're not paying it, it's hard to retain and keep lawyers.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

REID: So it's unclear if he has a lawyer right now in Georgia.

SCIUTTO: Paula Reid, thanks so much.

Boris?

SANCHEZ: It is a rare legal move, and it could be a game changer. Survivors of the Buffalo shooting suing social media companies, gun companies and the killer's parents. Do they have a case? We will discuss with a legal expert in just a moment.

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[14:50:18]

SANCHEZ: A new push for accountability after the racist mass shooting at a grocery store in Buffalo. Attorneys representing survivors and a family member of one of the 10 people killed have filed two lawsuits.

They named social media companies, gun manufacturers and a gun store, and the shooter's parents, alleging they facilitated and equipped the gunman who was sentenced to life in prison in February.

According to one of the lawsuits, quote, "Just as the shooter is being held to account criminally for his actions, the defendants named in this lawsuit must answer for the critical roles they played in facilitating this reprehensible mass shooting."

Let's discuss with a legal expert. Areva Martin joins us now. She is a civil rights attorney and legal affairs commentator. Areva, thanks so much for being with us.

So of all these defendants, the shooter's parents, the social media companies, gun makers and gun companies, which do you think is most likely to be found liable?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY & CNN LEGAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: I think there is a good chance that the gun manufacturer has some responsibility and could be held to be accountable for the emotional damages that the survivors of the Tops market lawsuit have claimed in this action.

This is a little unique because, in typical cases against gun manufacturers, it is the victims themselves or the family members of the victims, like we saw in Sandy Hook.

But here, these bystanders, these witnesses are saying, look, we're traumatized by having to witness this mass shooting.

We saw the Sandy Hook case. They sued the gun manufacturer. The Supreme Court refused to allow them to escape responsibility. That was true to state law in Connecticut.

But ultimately, that case resulted in a $73 million settlement for the victims' families of the Sandy Hook shooting.

So there is precedent for these losses. Even though there is a shield in federal law for gun manufacturers, that's starting to change.

SANCHEZ: How about for social media companies? It is surprising they would try to go after Google, which is the parent company of YouTube? Is there precedent there?

MARTIN: Not really, surprising. Because what we have seen over the last couple of years, in particular, with respect to school districts, school districts have been suing social media companies claiming that the content on these various Web sites is causing increases in anxiety, depression and even suicide rates among students.

So there is a big push to hold social media companies responsible for the content on their sites. And, again, by federal statute, these social media companies have enjoyed a great deal of immunity and haven't been held accountable.

But in this lawsuit, they're saying this shooter was radicalized on social media. Passages from his diary and other statements that he made where he said he hatched this idea to shoot these African- Americans based on what he saw online.

SANCHEZ: I'm also curious about the parents as well because the lawsuits alleges they, quote, "abdicated their duties" when they failed to intervene.

What kind of evidence would these plaintiffs need to bring to court to find the parents liable?

MARTIN: Well, clearly, they would have to establish that the parents had some prior knowledge, that they knew he was, one, being radicalized online, that he had access to the firearms that he used in the mass shooting, and that they had an opportunity to intervene, to prevent him from engaging in this criminal act.

Courts have been reluctant to hold parents responsible for the actions, the criminal actions of their children.

And particularly, I think the plaintiffs may have a difficult time with respect to the parents because the shooter was 18 at the time. So he was of legal age. He's an adult. So I don't see a court holding these parents responsible.

But I do think this lawsuit and others like this, where there are mass shootings, are really, really important. They're drawing what we saw with litigation against the tobacco companies, where tobacco companies were held accountable.

We saw nuclear verdicts against those companies and those verdicts had an exponential impact on smoking, decreasing smoking because of the liability that tobacco companies eventually started to face in the courts.

SANCHEZ: Areva, I wanted to dig into a point that you made earlier about the fact that some of the plaintiffs in these lawsuits are not just victims or loved ones of the deceased. It's also witnesses, employees of the Top Supermarket who have been traumatized by this act.

[14:55:05]

If this is successful, could it set a precedent for similar victims in mass shootings?

MARTIN: Absolutely. We would see a lot more class-action lawsuits.

And, in fact, there was a class-action lawsuit filed as a result of the mass shooting in the 2017 case involving Las Vegas, in that country music festival, where I think it was close to 100 people were shot and killed as a result of that.

We're not sure what happened to that class-action lawsuit. It was closed in 2020. Possibly there was a settlement and a confidentiality agreement was entered into.

But I would not be surprised if we didn't start seeing more class- action lawsuits filed, again, not just by the victims or the family members of the victims.

But by bystanders that have to witness the kind of trauma that we can only imagine, you know, happens when you watch someone get gunned down in a way that these witnesses did and these bystanders at the Tops market.

SANCHEZ: Areva, thanks so much for sharing your expertise with us. Areva Martin.

MARTIN: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Jim?

SCIUTTO: Some on the right wing go too far. Death threats towards a judge. Doxing members of the grand jury. The latest on these incidents and what's being done about them. That's coming up.

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