Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Texas Woman Charged With Threatening To Kill Judge; Sources: Trump Plans To Skip First GOP Primary Debate, Plotting Counterprogramming Instead; Hawaii Gov: 1,000 Plus Still Unaccounted After Deadly Wildfire. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 17, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:50]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Threats and calls for violence. Fears today that jurors and judges tied to Trump cases are at risk as the former president's legal battles grow. What we're learning about those threats and who's behind them.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And we have new details about when Donald Trump is planning to turn himself in to face those charges in Georgia. As we learned, he is now plotting counter program for the first GOP primary debate.

Plus, new focus on a power company facing lawsuits over Maui's wildfires and anger growing over the response to the tragedy as officials warned that 1,000 people or more could still be missing.

We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: The Fulton County Georgia Sheriff's Office now says it is working with other agencies to track down where the threats to Georgia grand jury members are coming from. A law enforcement source tells CNN "people are being threatened to be killed for doing their civic duty."

This comes just days after the grand jury voted to indict former president Donald Trump. Their purported names, photos, social media profiles, even home addresses were published on far right message boards linked to violent extremist attacks. Experts tell us that some anonymous users are calling for violence against those jurors.

And meantime, in Texas, a woman has been charged with threatening to kill the federal judge overseeing Donald Trump's January 6th case. After police say she left a voicemail message saying, "You are in our sights, we want to kill you."

CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller, joins us now.

John, let's begin with that dangerous threat to Judge Chutkan. What do you make of all of that? JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST:

Well, the threat to Judge Chutkan comes from a phone call that comes from places - a town called Alvin, Texas. Federal Protective Service officers from the Department of Homeland Security went to that address, interviewed the woman who made that call allegedly, Abi Jo Shry. She said, "Well, I was never going to carry out the threat out of a gun. I'm not going to go there and shoot anybody. I was drinking when I did it." Her father testified she's a nonviolent alcoholic.

And yet, they brought this charge because the recent court decisions really say, as long as the person has a conscious disregard to the idea that their threat would be taken seriously and cause fear in the person that's directed at, that's still a crime. And, that's a federal crime when you're threatening a federal judge.

So, she went in front of a different federal judge and was denied bail while they sought out what those conditions are going to be.

SANCHEZ: John, how about the jurors in Fulton County, the grand jury members whose personal information was apparently leaked online, what kind of protection can be offered to them?

MILLER: So, with the resources of the Fulton County grand - Fulton County Sheriff's Office, Pat Labat and his team probably don't have the resources to put a police car or a security team on 20 some odd members of the secret grand jury and protect them indefinitely.

What they are talking about is directed patrols, which is to have a police presence around their homes, a car that sweeps by every few minutes when it's not answering your call that it's back there, that they have a hotline to the police where if they see something and they call, they'll get an immediate response.

And Boris, in the meantime, remember the back end of this which is as threats may be coming in, those threats are going to be traced back to an IP address or to a phone number or to a social media post or to a message board.

[15:04:58]

Subpoenas will go out, individuals will be identified and that could be another set of arrests and prosecutions under a Georgia state law that carries a 20-year sentence for threatening a juror or a member of a grand jury on account of a charge and indictment or verdict.

SANCHEZ: We will keep an eye out for more potential charges ahead in Fulton County.

John Miller, thank you so much for that. Jim?

SCIUTTO: We have learned that Trump plans to surrender at the Fulton County jail, those are live pictures there, in Georgia next week. Of course, that's the same week as we will see the first Republican presidential primary debate. A debate, CNN is told, he is not expected, at least for now, to attend. CNN's Alayna Treene joins us now. So president - former president

plans to turn himself in next week, not show up at the debate, so what are his other plans perhaps?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Right. Well, Jim, there could be a collision course here because we are hearing that he's going to surrender next week. I'm told that the Fulton County District Attorney's Office and Donald Trump's lawyers in Georgia are expected to continue their talks and negotiations around his surrender into next week.

And then very quickly from there, once they have a plan, I think you'll quickly see him head to Georgia for his surrender. And so there could be some sort of collision course with that debate on Wednesday. But regardless, like you said, Jim, he's not expecting to be on the debate stage on Wednesday.

And instead, Donald Trump himself has been personally throwing out ideas about how he might want to counter program it, including a potential interview with Tucker Carlson, as well as calling into different cable news shows.

I'm also told his team has been coordinating with Trump surrogates about having them there to represent him in the debate room. People like Byron Donalds and Matt Gaetz, both congressman from Florida, as well as Kari Lake and members of Donald Trump's team.

So even if Trump isn't there, there's expected to be some sort of Trump presence at the debate in the spin room that night.

SCIUTTO: And we've seen the former president do that before, seek friendly outlets as opposed to being challenged, say, on a debate stage.

So when we look at the debate stage, you had a couple of different markers to get you on that stage in terms of fundraising and polling. Do we know what the final lineup will look like or it might still change between now and then?

TREENE: It could still change between now and then. But there are five candidates who have met both the donor threshold and the polling threshold as well as have signed the RNC pledge that states that they would ultimately support the eventual Republican nominee and that includes Nikki Haley, Gov. Ron DeSantis, Vivek Ramaswamy, Sen. Tim Scott and Gov. Doug Burgum. So, they all are going to be there.

There's three candidates as well who have qualified for the polling thresholds, as well as the donor threshold but have not signed the pledge. And that's former New Jersey governor, Chris Christie, Mike Pence and, of course, former president, Donald Trump.

So, I am told that Mike Pence said he's expected to potentially sign that pledge. And I do think, you'll end up seeing some of those three on the debate stage next Wednesday.

SCIUTTO: Alayna Treene, thanks so much. Boris. SANCHEZ: We've got a lot to talk about. Let's dig deeper on that

conversation about potential political violence with former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams and former Secret Service agent, Jonathan Wackrow.

Jonathan, I want to start with you because there is a serious challenge when it comes to protecting a judge in such a high-profile case and it's not just her, her family was threatened as well.

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, Boris, what you're raising is a problem that just keeps metastasizing and getting bigger and bigger. And what we're seeing is the deliberate targeting of not only judges, but we're seeing prosecutors, we're seeing jurists now in the favorite foil of the former president, which is the FBI. But how do you protect them, right, with all of these inbound threats.

It's a challenge for law enforcement to assess the means, opportunity in the intent for individuals who are making those threats to actually transcend from political rhetoric into violent acts. And - but we're seeing that speed of rhetoric to violent action shortening.

Most recently, we've seen an individual by - who was picked up by the Secret Service by Obama's residence that literally took messaging off of social media and transcended that messaging into a call to action and specifically a call to violence. We start with Paul Pelosi.

So this isn't out of the realm of possibility when we're seeing these threats. We're seeing them materialize into violence very quickly.

SANCHEZ: Sure. And Elliot, in a perfect world, these threats would not impact the case in any way, but we're in the real world and it could potentially have an effect.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, yes and no. Federal judges, believe it or not, Boris, most federal judges don't have any sort of protection around the clock at home. I've worked for two different federal judges and they carry on and do their jobs.

[15:10:02]

And in the face of near constant threats, maybe not all of them actionable but certainly people who are unhappy with the decisions they make, I would think that nothing really slows the case down in - at least on the judge's perspective. Now, look, certainly jurors are - or people in the public are seeing this information and maybe getting frightened about what might be looming out there.

But I really do think most judges are able to put this kind of nonsense aside and do their jobs for the American people.

SANCHEZ: So it may not slow the case down, but could it speed it up? I mean, we've seen the judge talk about not tainting the jury pool in the context of Donald Trump's social media posts. Could these move things along fast?

WILLIAMS: I think she'd be far more likely to move things along faster if it were coming from the defendant himself, right? And if the defendant is tainting the jury pool, as we've seen statements from at least this defendant here, then certainly that could be the case. But in terms of crazy people outside in the public, threatening judges and court personnel and so on, it's sadly far more common than it ought to be. And I think judges are sort of used to that kind of thing.

SANCHEZ: Jonathan, I wanted to dig deeper on something that you noted. And that's the fact that in this voicemail, this grotesque voicemail that the woman in Texas left for Judge Chutkan. Apparently, the woman claimed to police that she was inebriated, and she didn't really take any steps to carry it out. Could that be relevant at all in a potential criminal case? How does law enforcement view it?

WACKROW: Well, as I said, Boris, there are three major pillars of how they're going to look at this threat. It's the means, the opportunity and the intent, right? So we have to look at - did this - does this individual have the opportunity to go and cause harm to the judge.

Making a threat in itself, that is a crime especially against a federal prosecutor. But listen, this individual didn't just do that on her own, right? She was influenced by something else. And we have to look at the forums where these discussions are being held where violent political rhetoric is really metastasizing.

These discussions are taking place at increasingly volumes in different pockets of the internet and a lot of them have a long history of being linked to violent extremism, they're basically the safe harbors for violent rhetoric.

And the issue right now is this borderline content is rapidly being amplified and we're amplifying it, we're seeing the consequence of that amplification. But we're really seeing violent extremism move from the margins to the middle right now because of that amplification and that's the biggest threat that I see right now.

SANCHEZ: And that is just a tragic development for democracy in general.

Elliot, quickly to you, we talked about how this kind of intimidation could or could not impact the judge, but what about jury members. We're seeing the grand jury in Fulton County, Georgia, their information allegedly posted online.

WILLIAMS: Yes. One of the great tragedies of the Internet age is that it's brought us all together. But the problem is that a lot of things you can say lawfully on the internet might actually be quite frightening or threatening to other people. Posting people's addresses isn't by itself criminal, but it could lead to somebody getting hurt or getting threatened.

So certainly, far more than court personnel or politicians, jurors could be influenced by having their names and information out there. Or more importantly, Boris, somebody but the same name might get threats.

SANCHEZ: Right. WILLIAMS: (Inaudible) Elliot Williams is a common name in America.

SANCHEZ: Common name, yes.

WILLIAMS: And somebody could post something about a juror and just be wrong. It's just - it's problematic all around and there's no place in our innocent society.

SANCHEZ: And the other terrifying thing about these online forums, so much of it is anonymous.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Right, yes.

Elliot Williams, Jonathan Wackrow, an important conversation. Thank you both for joining us. Jim?

WACKROW: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Let's dig deeper into the extent of these threats against public officials. It extends beyond judges. Last week, FBI agents shot and killed a Utah man, they were trying to arrest after he allegedly threatened to kill President Biden along with several prosecutors who brought cases against Trump, including Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg; and New York state attorney general, Letitia James; and FBI director, Christopher Wray has called the level of threats against agents now quote, unprecedented.

One of those instances was last summer, a man wearing body armor carrying an AR-15 rifle allegedly tried to break into an FBI office in Cincinnati after posting online that he wanted to kill FBI agents. He was killed in a standoff with responding police.

Also, last summer, a man carrying a gun, knife and zip ties was arrested near the home of Supreme Court justice, Brett Kavanaugh. The suspect told police he wanted to kill Kavanaugh and himself because he was upset over the leaked draft opinion that overturned Roe v. Wade.

And in October, a man who broke into the home of then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi attacked her husband, Paul, with a hammer.

[15:15:07]

Before the assault, he echoed a question shouted by many January 6 Capitol rioters: "Where's Nancy?" Boris, these are not isolated incidents. We're seeing them more and more often.

SANCHEZ: It is part of a troubling pattern as Jonathan Wackrow just shared.

Still ahead this hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, we're taking you to Hawaii where more than a thousand people are still missing and just a handful of the more than 100 victims who've been recovered have even been identified. The latest on the recovery efforts there.

Plus, what sales at Wal-Mart and Target are telling us about the bigger picture with the U.S. economy.

And more from the Tuohys. The family featured in that hit film, "The Blind Side." What the couple is saying about former NFL star, Michael Oher, an awkward and icky fight between these two when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:01]

SCIUTTO: It's been more than a week since the catastrophic wildfire on Maui, the Governor says officials still cannot account for more than 1,000 people. The official death toll right now has climbed to 111. Sadly, some of those are children, officials have confirmed to CNN. Authorities have released the names of just five of those confirmed dead.

They are 71 to 90 years old. All were from Lahaina, Buddy Jantoc, Melva Benjamin, Robert Dyckman, Virginia Dofa and Alfredo Galinato. Four more people have been identified but officials are holding off releasing their names pending family notification. Sad fact, Boris, is we're going to see a lot more of this.

SANCHEZ: Then, a lot of remains that likely will remain unidentified. Keep in mind that means that in total, only nine people so far have been identified by authorities. That leaves 102 victims who have not been and the process of putting names to the rest of the dead could take months, potentially years as the road to identification continues to move forward. Those who made it out alive though are facing a daunting reality.

Listen to what the state senator who represents the Lahaina area told Jim earlier in the last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ANGUS MCKELVEY (D-HI): Think about this for a second: You've lost, not only your home, you've lost your business and your income, which was pointed to earlier. You've lost your school, you've lost your daycare, you've lost your grocery stores, you've lost everything that creates what is known as a life.

And now, you're expected to rebuild it, and meanwhile, you've got chaos going on all around you and you still can't get into the areas. There's no plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Let's take you now live to Lahaina with CNN Chief Climate Correspondent, Bill Weir.

Bill, take us there. What are you seeing today?

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, you really told a lot of the story with the numbers, breaking down just how difficult a task this will be forensically. The burn area behind me is over three square miles and they have 40 dogs here that need a break every 15 minutes or so because of the heat and to protect their paws from hotspots as well.

And it takes a real skill, a forensic skill to spot maybe a bone shard in all of this, you know, scorched devastation around there. So this will take a very long time and your heart breaks for people who are in limbo right now. We met some of those folks who have submitted DNA samples who know in their heart, they've seen what was left of their mother in law's house and - but they have to hold on to hope as long as they can until they get that official confirmation.

The fact that they're opening up the main highway in for folks whose homes didn't burn down as a big stress relief just on the community there. But there are still so many questions about the alarm system, conflicting reports about whether they didn't work from the governor.

But then the head of the emergency management system here on Maui yesterday says they weren't activated because they're afraid people would run up the hillsides thinking it's a tsunami warning. Others are pushing back on that right now. There are no sirens in the upcountry fire - places in Maui, so that wouldn't help those folks up there on how to flee, so a lot of questions there.

Hawaii electric, there's new investigation showing that they had promised back in 2019 to use drones to examine the high wire lines around Maui and see where the most vulnerable areas are. But Wall Street Journal is reporting they spent less than $300,000 on that project in the last few years. And obviously, it wasn't enough to head off the disaster. You see more and more social videos sort of surveillance, security cam footage of sparking lines.

So it looks like that might have been the cause, that seems to be the most consensus on what caused this thing. But so many questions about what happened during and after, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes. The - all those kids who were at home because school was out ...

SANCHEZ: Yes.

SCIUTTO: ... as we learned last hour as well.

Thanks so much, Bill Weir. What a story to tell.

We're going to join - we will be joined now by Wall Street Journal reporter, Katherine Blunt, who reported the story Bill referred to there.

Regarding what and what it did not do, what Hawaiian Electric did in advance of these wildfires, she wrote the book, "California Burning: The Fall of Pacific Gas and Electric--and What It Means for America's Power Grid."

Katherine, the 2019 wildfire season in Hawaii was already one of the worst it's ever seen. It's your reporting Hawaiian Electric concluded it, needed to do more to prevent its power lines from contributing to wildfires by emitting sparks. But four years later, doesn't seem like it accomplished a lot in that space. Tell us what you learned. KATHERINE BLUNT, REPORTER, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Sure, absolutely. So

2019 was a really consequential year. We've seen Pacific Gas and Electric seek bankruptcy protection after its fires started some - I mean, excuse me, its power line started (inaudible) deadly wildfires in 2017 and 2018.

[15:25:09]

Many utilities were paying attention to this and Hawaiian electric was among them and said that - and look at the California experience. We've done some initial assessment and determined that there's a range of measures that we should take to make our infrastructure safer. And so this is in a press release.

But in order to do this kind of work, the company needs to basically seek approval from the Hawaii Public Utility Commission. And the company really, frankly, did very little on that front for several years really mentioning it only - in passing it in a 2021 filing and then didn't put forth a more comprehensive plan to address, wildfire risk and other climate risks until 2022 and that proceeding is ongoing.

SANCHEZ: And Katherine, notably, many communities are switching to renewables in the United States and around the world as well. But your reporting uncovered a specific connection between Hawaii's investments in fire protection and its investments in renewable energy.

BLUNT: Well, as it was described to us by people who are close to the utility and the utilities, kind of what it was focused on over the last several years is the fact that Hawaii has been moving very quickly to replace conventional power plants with wind and solar power and, of course, batteries to store that power. And that's - the utility plays a huge role in that, has to go out and contract for these projects.

And a lot of the utilities' focus was on helping Hawaii hit these clean energy targets. That's not to say that a utility can't procure clean power and address infrastructure risk at the same time. The utilities can and should do this, but it's - a simple fact was the company was very focused on procuring clean energy and didn't recognize the extent to which it really could face operational risk exacerbated by the changing climate, as we've seen.

SCIUTTO: I mean, well, Hawaii has particular needs because it's an island. The state of island depends on petroleum for 80 percent of its energy needs has to be has to be shipped in, given that you've written a book on California, given that wildfires are a threat to communities in a number of places beyond Hawaii, and a number of those communities as Boris was saying are at the same time trying to switch to renewables.

Is there something particular that Hawaii did wrong here, Hawaiian Electric, or neglected to do based on your reporting and book writing prior to this, something that stands out?

BLUNT: Sure. Well, if it's determined that Hawaiian Electrics' power lines played any role in this terrible disaster, there's certainly a lot of parallels with California and it's very unfortunate. I think, in any case, there's indications that not only the utility company, but the utility commission as well sort of underestimated the extent to which the utility was facing new climate risks that needs to be mitigated with investments and infrastructure, and changes to the way the system operates. That was true for certainly for PG&E and it may, indeed, be true for Hawaiian Electric.

And I think, you know, in general, utilities are tend to be fairly backward looking. I think that the past is a reasonable indication of the future and that relationship is beginning to break down. And so, I think that, utilities - some - specially smart utilities are trying to do more to figure out what Congress means for them, what changes need to be made.

And, of course, we are moving into a period, I think, in which the fire risk is going to remain elevated and increased throughout the entire west (inaudible) locations for the rest of the region.

SCIUTTO: Yes. As - well, the world struggles with the risk of wildfires from the changing climate and other natural disasters as well.

Katherine Blunt, thanks so much for joining us.

BLUNT: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: For more information about how you can help the many, many victims of this tragedy on Maui, please do go to cnn.com/impact. You can also text Hawaii to 707070 to donate. Lots of ways there in each of those places to make a difference.

Coming up next, shot at while they drowned, executed in the desert, disturbing and alarming new CNN reporting on atrocities carried out over a single day this summer in West Darfur. That's next on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)