Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Republican Candidates Set For Debate; Some Trump Co-Defendants Surrender in Georgia. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 22, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:36]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Some of the first to surrender, but not the last.

Former President Trump's alleged co-conspirators in Georgia begin to turn themselves in ahead of the Friday deadline, as Trump himself says he will surrender on Thursday.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Plus: fighting for traction when the front- runner is missing in action. Republican candidates are preparing their playbooks for debate night without Trump on the stage, as we are learning that FOX is keeping the former president's allies from showing up in the spin room after the debate.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus: identifying the dead on Maui. The attempt to solve a tragic mystery of the hundreds still missing.

We're following these developing stories and many others, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: Two down, 17 to go.

Today, the first batch of Donald Trump's indicted co-conspirators are surrendering at the Fulton County Jail in Atlanta. It is all part of the sweeping indictment against the former president and his allies for their efforts to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia.

There, you see a key architect of that scheme, the lawyer John Eastman, leaving the jail this morning. In about 48 hours, Trump himself is expected to surrender there. Thursday will mark his fourth booking on criminal charges.

The remaining defendants have until Friday at noon to surrender.And now one of them accused of leading the fake electors scheme in Georgia says he was acting at the direction of the 45th president.

CNN's Zachary Cohen is outside the Fulton County Jail. Katelyn Polantz is outside the courthouse.

Zach, first, who has surrendered? We should note it's a temporary surrender under the agreements they have negotiated with their lawyers. Who has surrendered and what happens actually when they're booked, as it's known? ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Jim, right now we

know of two co-defendants, two of former President Donald Trump's co- defendants, who have surrendered here at the Fulton County Jail, which is right behind me.

One of them is a local bail bondsman. His name is Scott Hall. He's charged with several crimes as part of this sprawling indictment, including crimes related to his alleged role in the breach of voting systems in Coffee County, Georgia, a rural Georgia county about 200 miles south of here.

The second person we know who's turned themselves in today is conservative attorney John Eastman. As you mentioned in the lead-in, John Eastman is described in this indictment as one of the architects of the broader effort to overturn the 2020 election. We know John Eastman went in around 10:20 this morning. And we saw him leaving just before noon, so he was in there for a little under two hours.

He told us that he was fingerprinted. He took a mug shot. He was searched. And he was treated really like any other defendant that comes here to turn themselves in at the Fulton County Jail. And maybe we're starting to see a pattern established here that the defendants who are turning themselves in as part of this Trump case are being treated almost like anybody else.

Now, that will be -- remains to be seen if that will happen for the former president. Obviously, there are special circumstances that go into a former president surrendering himself to a jail, sort of uncharted waters in itself. But we're already seeing people come here to the jail, turn themselves in, be processed and then released.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Quite a prospect there, seeing those very senior former officials getting mug shots, getting fingerprinted.

Katelyn, there is also activity where you are outside the courthouse there. Who exactly has been in and out today, and what are they up to?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Who we have seen today are some attorneys for some of the fake electors for Donald Trump in Georgia after the 2020 election.

And the reason that they're coming to this courthouse is because they want to do that before they go over to the jail, where Zach is and was just speaking about what's happening whenever defendants in this case are being arrested.

But they're coming over here first because their attorneys are negotiating with the district attorney's office, the prosecutors on this case, about bond, so that, whenever they go to the jail, they don't have to sit there for a very long time and wait to post their money. They can have that all worked out and approved by a judge before they turn themselves in for their arrest.

So, the three -- there were three groups of lawyers we have seen so far related to this case out of the 19 defendants. There were several yesterday who came in, including Donald Trump's attorneys to negotiate his bond agreement.

[13:05:04]

But, today, it was Shawn Still's attorney, David Shafer's attorney, Cathy Latham's attorney. All three of these are prominent GOP officials, fake electors for Donald Trump. One of the attorneys for David Shafer was leaving. Here is what he had to say whenever we catched him exiting the courthouse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Have you been in touch at all with the former president?

(LAUGHTER)

QUESTION: I take as a no?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: There are several more who have not yet gone through this process yet that we are expecting that they will by Friday at noon to both have their bonds negotiated and arrested and also be arraigned under their pleadings of not guilty.

Some of those boldfaced names we're still waiting on, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell and others, some of the most prominent attorneys that surrounded themselves or became part of the Trump campaign after the 2020 election and were enmeshed in Donald Trump's administrative activities when he was the president and now have received quite a bit of infamy for what they are accused of doing after the 2020 election.

SCIUTTO: And at least one of them saying doing so at the former president's direction.

There has been now one more effort to move this state case to a federal court. What do we know, and what do we know about the potential time frame for that?

POLANTZ: So, many moving parts here in this case in state court.

So, this racketeering case charges several people, including Donald Trump himself, but several people who had some sort of an affiliation as an official in the federal government at the time of the election or shortly after.

And those people are popping up to say, we want to get this case out of state court. We want to put it in the federal court system, a different court system, one where there's no cameras allowed and they play slightly different rules there whenever you have a court proceeding.

And so the most prominent motion to do this so far has come from Jeffrey Clark, the Justice Department official who Donald Trump considered installing as attorney general to try and overturn some of the results in various states.

And Jeffrey Clark, he's asking the federal court to put the whole case on hold, get all of the defendants, all 19, moved out of state court into federal court before a federal judge, rather than a state judge, perhaps a judge that could have been appointed by Donald Trump.

And so he's asking for that to happen. The timeline on this is, he wants something to happen fast. Mark Meadows already has a hearing on one of these similar motions set for Monday.

SCIUTTO: Katelyn Polantz outside the courthouse there, thanks so much -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation now with CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams.

Elliot, let's start with the two co-defendants that just surrendered, first, John Eastman. He put out a statement through his attorneys, essentially saying that he was just doing his job. He says that he was being charged for -- quote -- "zealous advocacy of Donald Trump," who he was ethically bound to represent.

Could that be a successful defense?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It could.

He could have been zealously advocating on behalf of the president, or he could also have been carrying out crimes at the direction of the president. And that will be for a court and a jury to sort out. Any number of the individuals in this case, Boris, they're attorneys who were providing advice to other people.

That advice often ended up being, at least as alleged, criminal misconduct. And as evidence comes out and certainly as this gets to trial, he can get in big trouble for it.

SANCHEZ: David Shafer, who reached the bond agreement with prosecutors today, he also is essentially saying that he was just doing his job, he acted at the behest of President Trump.

He actually provided a transcript of a meeting about fake electors.

WILLIAMS: Right.

SANCHEZ: Could his ability to point...

WILLIAMS: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... to documents that say, hey, this is what they asked me to do, I was just doing what they asked me to do, could that have an impact on his case?

WILLIAMS: Yes, so what that's about is to -- what he's asking to do is move the case into federal court.

It's right now in Georgia state court. SANCHEZ: Right.

WILLIAMS: They would like to move it in federal court.

In order to do that, you have to establish that some officer, perhaps the president of the United States, was acting in the context of their office, not as a candidate, not as an individual, but as president.

By saying that the president was writing me memos, he's saying necessarily, look, the president was doing his job as president. Therefore, we should all be moved into federal court.

It's an argument that might work. Again, there's entire classes in law school on just this one idea, how you get things into federal court.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

WILLIAMS: It's very hard. It's very confusing. And a court has to sort it out.

SANCHEZ: It's interesting to me that, so far, there's only been a handful of co-defendants out of the 19 that have surrendered and turned themselves in. Are you anticipating a rush by Thursday, Friday?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I think, the next 72 hours, when you have 15 defendants showing up, I guess that kind of is a rush. It's like a bank run on going to court, but they have to.

[13:10:02]

SANCHEZ: Yes.

WILLIAMS: I don't think anybody wants -- setting aside the bluster of these big personalities, nobody wants to be put in handcuffs on television, thrown in a jail cell that they have no control over.

They are likely to surrender between now and Friday.

SANCHEZ: There are certain aspects of this that we still have a lot more questions about, specifically about the former president and his financial help for some of his co-defendants.

But we're going to stand by for a moment, Elliot, if you don't mind, and get to Brianna.

Actually, we don't have Brianna yet, so I will just get to it right away.

Elliot, one of the stipulations in Donald Trump's bond agreement is over his use of social media, not something that a lot of the other co-defendants have in their bond agreements. Is that standard? How is that enforceable?

WILLIAMS: It's increasingly standard over time as we become more of a wired world that's on social media. Juries get instructions now on how they can use their computers and

phones while they're sitting as jurors in the case, and it's certainly the case for a defendant. Now, this defendant here has a history of social media and aggressive posts and threats and so on.

SANCHEZ: Right.

WILLIAMS: So it's not surprising that the judge put it in.

Now to your question about, is this enforceable, there's a lot of gray areas when you're talking about speech and online conduct. And the question is, is something a threat? Is it just aggressive language? Is it an unlawful statement? Is it just something that he maybe shouldn't have said?

He's got to tweet it first or TRUTH it first, and then the court has to bring him in and say -- and really pick apart what he did and whether it broke the law.

SANCHEZ: Now, there's an interesting scenario at play, because this bond agreement comes after we learned that Donald Trump had recorded an interview with Tucker Carlson that's set to air tomorrow night during the Republican debate. It's some sort of counterprogramming that they have planned.

If Donald Trump said something in that interview with Tucker Carlson that can be perceived...

WILLIAMS: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... as he's said before, about Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan and others in Georgia as witness tampering or witness intimidation, but it was said before the bond agreement was reached, could he potentially get in trouble for that?

WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely.

The mere fact that he made the statement before he knew about the bond agreement doesn't change the fact that the statement might still have a threat on a witness in the future. So if it comes out and is public, even if you recorded it a couple days ago, a judge has the discretion, wide discretion, to bring him in and ask him questions about it, and then maybe adjust the terms of his release or his bond.

And lastly, Elliot, we know that Trump has not exactly come to the aid of these co-defendants in the Georgia case when it comes to finances, Jenna Ellis, Rudy Giuliani, among others, being clear that they are struggling when it comes to pay all these legal fees.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

SANCHEZ: What do you make of that move?

WILLIAMS: A couple things.

One, it's a lot of money to pay for lawyers, and I think a lot of people are going to struggle in any litigation. What you're beginning to see here is something you see anytime you have multiple defendants in a case. They're just not always going to be in alignment with each other over questions like what their strategies are, what their defenses are, but also who's paying.

And this is the kind of thing that will bubble up and continue through the trial. And we will just have to see how it gets resolved.

SANCHEZ: And this is the strength of a RICO case, right, where lower- level defendants find themselves mired in these legal bills. It makes it more likely, perhaps, that they can flip?

WILLIAMS: And they have a huge incentive to do that, because flipping or at least pleading guilty in our system comes with a huge benefit.

You get a lower sentence, maybe all kinds of benefits coming to you down the road. They really are incentivized to do it. Now, look, this former president does engender a lot of loyalty, but I have seen a lot of guys looking at the prospect of jail time really change their minds real quick when the music starts.

SANCHEZ: Make you question that loyalty.

Elliot Williams, always appreciate the perspective.

WILLIAMS: Thanks, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Thanks -- Brianna.

KEILAR: While former President Trump prepares to surrender, his GOP competition for their first debate. Can they deal a blow to a front- runner that isn't even on stage?

Plus, President Biden tapping a new White House counsel as investigations encircle his family and his administration. We will have more on that.

And a daring rescue nearly 1,000 feet up in the air, four children pulled to safe safety from a dangling cable car in Pakistan. See more of the amazing images ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:18:06]

SCIUTTO: Since former President Trump will not be participating in the first Republican debate of 2024 tomorrow night, FOX News has just informed his campaign that, in turn, they will not provide credentials for some Trump surrogates who plan to be in the debate's spin room, as it's known, before and after the debate.

But some Trump allies will still attend, former Arizona gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake, also one who proffers election lies, as well as Florida Congressman Byron Douglas -- Byron Donalds, rather, and Matt Gaetz.

CNN's Alayna Treene joins us now live.

So, what's going to happen tomorrow? Will Gaetz, Donald's, and Lake be able to be in that spin room to make their case for the non- participating Trump? Or will there be sort of dividing lines?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: I think they will be there, Jim.

I think, since this reporting, they have come to a resolution. And, really, the Trump team has found somewhat of a loophole here. They will be able to use outside media, other media organizations that aren't FOX News. If they are able to give the Trump team and some of his surrogates a credential, they will be able to be there in the spin room tomorrow night.

And that is currently the plan. But I will tell you, Jim, that this really frustrated a lot of Trump advisers and people I spoke with yesterday, who spent a lot of time trying to sort this out with the network. They felt like this was a slap in the face from FOX, even though, of course, FOX made this decision given that the former president will not be on the debate stage tomorrow.

But I am told that the surrogates will be attending. They will be at the debate and in the spin room, as well as several Trump advisers who have since found other credentials with other networks.

So that's going to be the Trump presence tomorrow at the debate. But we also know that the former president himself does not have plans to be in debate, but he does have a planned interview. He has prerecorded an interview with former FOX News host Tucker Carlson to air at some point tomorrow, of course, as sort of counterprogramming for this.

[13:20:04]

But I think the bigger thing that we should be watching for that will really upstage a lot of tomorrow night and the debate will be when he goes to Georgia on Thursday. His team very much welcomes the fact that his surrender is going to get a lot of media coverage, and it's likely going to take away from a lot of the coverage that his rivals would have had if his surrender wasn't happening the day after this debate, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, surrendering at the county jail under charges of attempting to overturn the election there.

Alayna Treene, Bridgewater, New Jersey, thanks so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: And we are joined now by two CNN political commentators.

We have former Georgia Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan with us and Errol Louis. He is a political anchor at Spectrum News.

I mean, Geoff, when you look at this counterprogramming strategy and what we're going to be seeing the day after the debate, this is going to swallow up any of the headlines that come out of the debate. Do you think that that is very much on purpose? GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, everything's

intentional to put the spotlight on Donald Trump and his world. That's why we're in the mess we're in now.

But I'm actually looking forward to this debate. I think, with him not in the mix, this is a great opportunity to really see what these other eight are made out of, right? Do they want to sit there and try to falsely prop up Donald Trump's conspiracy theories, or do they want to take a bold stand and paint a really clear direction as to how we move this party and this country forward, how we beat Joe Biden?

And I think they also have a burden on their shoulders to really prove that Donald Trump's been a fake Republican for four years. He talked all about draining the swamp, and we really spent four years watching him fill the swamp with $8 trillion worth of additional debt.

He built a wall for photo-ops and not really for security. I think it's an opportunity for these Republicans to do something about it, and Donald Trump's going to do what he's going to do. I just, at the end of the day, can't think it's going to help him to be arrested for the fourth time. I just don't think, long term, that's a winning strategy.

KEILAR: Errol, do you see, similarly, an opportunity here for these other candidates on the debate stage without Donald Trump?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's definitely an opportunity. I'm not sure they're going to take it.

By some indications, like the leaked memo from the DeSantis camp, it seems that they may end up turning on each other and fighting for a chance to be 25 or 30 points behind the front-runner. If that's the only stakes that they're playing for, then they're going to turn it into much less of a debate than it should be.

What really needs to happen is, if they're going to really be true to their own campaign rhetoric, they have to start talking about a post- Trump era. That's really what they're all calling for. They're saying the Republican Party has to move beyond Donald Trump.

And without getting into the ins and outs of why, they really have to start laying out a vision of what that might look like. It's a risky strategy. It's much more attractive and easier to get a sound bite by simply attacking Donald Trump.

But the harder route, I think, is going to be the correct one and might actually get them somewhere in the polls.

KEILAR: To your point, Geoff, former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie has some advice for those candidates who are planning to continue defending Donald Trump on that debate stage.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For some folks, they believe this is a political calculus, that somehow Donald Trump will be defeated by the legal process, and that when he is, if they're the ones who have said nothing bad about Donald Trump, that they're more likely to inherit the Donald Trump voters.

Well, I will tell you something. If you want to know what a failure that strategy is, talk to me, or Jeb Bush, or Marco Rubio.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What do you think about that assessment?

DUNCAN: Once again, Governor Christie couldn't be any more spot on with his assessment of the situation, right?

I mean, I just don't see a winning strategy for playing nice with the situation that Donald Trump's created around himself and the party. You have got to go right at him. You have got to call him out for lying to Republicans and for essentially bankrupting our party, morality in our party, the fiscal responsibility in our party, and, last but not least, the winning percentage of our party.

Chris Christie, here's a guy who's, on the surface, 20 points behind in New Hampshire, but there's only 300,000 people that are going to vote in that primary. If he can find 30,000 people that really believe a 91-indictment charge against Donald Trump is a reason to not be the next president, he's got a chance to be break-even with him after a news cycle or a debate or just a few good stories.

KEILAR: Errol, Trump's biggest challenger says he's doing a disservice to his voters by skipping the debate.

I want to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Nobody is entitled to anything in this world, less of all the Republican nomination for president.

He has a great opportunity to come out and do this. I think he owes it to people. I don't think our voters, even people that appreciate what he did -- and I'm actually one that appreciated a lot of what he did too -- I don't think they're going to look kindly on somebody that thinks they don't have to earn it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:25:00]

KEILAR: Do you think that's the case, at least, Errol, for a significant chunk of people, that it could wound Trump?

LOUIS: Oh, look, I don't know if voters are looking for candidates to earn their vote. At this stage of the game, frankly, and on a televised spectacle like a debate, they're looking to be entertained more than anything else. And, frankly, look, let's be clear. DeSantis is not saying much about, say, Nikki Haley or any of the other candidates that are trailing far behind him, because it's not in his interest to do so.

That same logic applies to Donald Trump. It's not in his interest to go and get a bunch of knives in his backs and kicks in his butts and have a bunch of people take shots at him, and that's why he is staying away. I'm sure Ron DeSantis would do the same if he could get away with it, but he's not in that position.

So we will see whether or not they're really going to mix it up, whether it's going to be the kind of high-minded debate that he is suggesting. My guess is that we shouldn't necessarily expect that tomorrow.

KEILAR: Geoff, since I have you here, I can't not ask you about Fulton County, where the judge has put in some pretty strict parameters for Donald Trump.

He can't say anything on social media, et cetera, that would be intimidating to unindicted co-conspirators, witnesses, co-defendants. What do you think that the judge should do if and maybe when Donald Trump violates that?

DUNCAN: Well, I bet you the campaign, Donald Trump's campaign right now, is trying to hire a cell phone chaperone. I'm certain he can't police himself on the issue.

Look, I don't even speculate what would happen if Donald Trump would violate what a judge would say. At the end of the day, this is a deteriorating situation for Donald Trump. I mean, just a few days into this, we're already watching the handful of folks who've turned themselves in, like David Shafer, really starting to point the direction right at Donald Trump in the Oval Office and saying he was directed by his attorneys to do what he did.

You're watching others point to shiny objects. But what you're not hearing them point to is that the election was rigged, because there's no facts that are going to back that up in this court case.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly, there do not appear to be.

Errol, Geoff, thank you so much to both of you. We do appreciate it -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Still to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL: "As long as it takes," those words coming from President Biden as he vows to support the survivors of the wildfires in Maui. We're going to take you live to the island next for the latest on a search for the missing.

And as the drumbeat by House Republicans for a Biden impeachment inquiry grows louder, the White House is hiring a new counsel. Details on the hire -- when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)