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First Trump Co-Defendants Surrender In Fulton County; Eight GOP Candidates Qualified For First Presidential Debate; Trump's Rivals To Face Off Without Him At First GOP Debate. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 22, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:10]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: The surrenders begin. Some of Donald Trump's 18 co-defendants have turned themselves in to Fulton County authorities. But the former president is saying he will arrive on Thursday. We'll take you live to Atlanta. Next.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And the show goes on without the main attraction. Republican presidential candidates are set to square off in a debate. Could it be their big chance to break through as the front-runner sits this one out?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And in Texas, the battle between the state and the Justice Department over controversial border buoys reaches federal court. We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: So, in about 48 hours, Donald Trump is expected to surrender right there at the Fulton County Jail in Atlanta. Some of his co- defendants have already surrendered today as others unveil new legal strategies in the face of charges tied to efforts to overturn the 2020 election in the Peach State. One defendant, pinning it all on Trump, while another is trying to avoid being booked altogether. And two others completing the booking process.

Here, you see John Eastman leaving the jail. Remember, he's the lawyer that devises that six-point plan for Mike Pence to reject the Electoral College certification and try to block Joe Biden's win.

Let's get you live outside the Fulton County Jail now with CNN's Zachary Cohen. Zach, we're learning more about the specifics of John Eastman's booking. Fill us in on those details.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY & JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes. John Eastman's attorney spoke to reporters alongside John Eastman after he was booked, processed, and released from the jail behind me. And he described John Eastman's experience in the jail as just like anybody else's.

He was fingerprinted. He took a mug shot. And so, really we're getting our first look into how these defendants, these 18 co-defendants in addition to Donald Trump are being treated once they're booked inside the Fulton County Jail.

Now, John Eastman answered some questions from reporters as his attorney seemed to be trying to persuade him not to do so but he was -- he was very -- he -- you know was adamant. He said that he had every right to file the lawsuits that he filed in an effort to overturn the 2020 election and that he was acting as an attorney for the former president. Take a listen to a little bit of what he told reporters this afternoon.

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JOHN EASTMAN, TRUMP CO-DEFENDANT: It represents a crossing of the Rubicon for our country, implicating the fundamental First Amendment right to petition the government for redress of grievances. As troubling, it targets attorneys for their zealous advocacy on behalf of their clients, something attorneys are ethically bound to provide. And which was attempted here, like formally challenging the results of the election through lawful and appropriate means. An opportunity never afforded them or their clients in the Fulton County Superior Court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So, Eastman was asked if he still believed the 2020 election was stolen, and he replied, absolutely. Now, as always with John Eastman, and he's been asked us repeatedly, he did not provide any evidence to back up that claim. He said he's not spoken to the former president either in recent days, and he's paying for his own legal bills. But really, John Eastman, one of the first high-profile co- defendants to surrender here to the Fulton County Jail behind me.

SANCHEZ: Yes. He says he was just being a zealous advocate of former President Trump. Zachary Cohen, please stand by. Thanks so much.

Let's go now outside the courthouse in Fulton County with Katelyn Polantz. Katelyn, a flurry of legal activity today, including a co- defendant who provided a transcript of a meeting about fake electors.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: That's right. So, there are people in this case, some of these defendants here who are doing their best to do legal maneuvers to get this case somehow put it on hold or dismissed or disrupted in some way quickly. And one of those people is David Shafer, a prominent Georgia Republican who also was a fake elector. And he has provided a transcript in court about what was happening behind closed doors related to the fake electors as part of what he's saying in court.

But when you step back and look at what this legal maneuver is, it's quite an important one that judges are going to have to look at -- or one judge is going to have to look at not just for David Shafer, but also for Jeffrey Clark, another lawyer who was in the administration for Mark Meadows from the Trump White House as the Chief of Staff. Potentially, from Donald Trump himself, if Trump also does this. What they're asking is essentially to block this case from moving forward in the state court and said put it before a federal judge, a judge who potentially could be a Trump appointee in the Northern District of Georgia in federal court.

[14:05:08]

And what Jeffrey Clark is doing is he's trying to get the entire case. Not just for the defendants who were working somehow or had an affiliation with the federal government after the 2020 election or during that period of time, but he's looking to get the entire case moved. David Shafer, one of the other people who has filed one of these requests in federal court is claiming that the reason that he should have -- that his case moved to federal court is because he was essentially working for Donald Trump or at the direction of Donald Trump when he was a fake elector.

He wrote in his court filing. Mr. Shafer and the other Republican electors in the 2020 election acted at the direction of the incumbent president and other federal officials.

We're going to wait to see what the judge says. It appears the judge is going to move very quickly on to untangling this and what it means for the state case here in Georgia.

SANCHEZ: Looking forward to those details. Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: Well, Boris, former President Trump is of course a habitual norm breaker, he's a rule bender and he's a persistent attacker of his enemies both real and perceived. But now, he faces serious legal consequences if he keeps that up. According to his bond agreement in Georgia, what is known as a bond consent order, Trump is prohibited from intimidating any witnesses, any of his 18 co-defendants, any of the 30 unindicted co-conspirators, and this includes posting or even reposting anything on social media that could be seen as threatening.

So, that could prove very difficult for the former president of course, when you consider his rich history of attacking witnesses, accusers, prosecutors, and even judges. And there are of course many examples. He frequently attacked Special Counsel Robert Mueller in his investigation into Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 elections -- election. He called him and his team angry Democrats even though Mueller of course was a Republican who was appointed by a Republican.

You may recall that Trump also repeatedly blasted his former attorney general, Jeff Sessions. He said that if he'd known Sessions was going to recuse himself from that probe, he "would have picked somebody else". And Trump of course has repeatedly attacked his former vice president, Mike Pence. He claimed on January six that Pence "didn't have the courage to overturn Biden's win."

Well, now, Trump is attacking Special Counsel Jack Smith, the man who has overseen his federal election interference case. He has called him deranged. He's called him a lunatic, a thug, a psycho, and he has said that he looks like a crackhead.

Well, also, we have seen Trump attack the judge who is overseeing that case. That is U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan. He has called her very biased and unfair. And then when you look at the Georgia election interference case, Trump has launched brutal and totally baseless attacks against Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis. He's called her racist. He has alleged that she had an affair with a gang member.

And Trump also, by the way, attack the key witness. He called former Georgia Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan, who is now a CNN political commentator. We just had him on the program last hour. He called him a loser.

Trump also said Duncan should not testify before the Georgia grand jury. Duncan of course, did. He's going to be joining us later -- he is going to be joining us, of course on the program later.

And of course, there are many other targets of Trump's attack. We've seen E. Jean Carroll, Stormy Daniels, prosecutors in Manhattan, to name a few as well. It remains to be seen if Trump can go more than a full day without violating the terms of his new consent order in Georgia, Jim.

SCIUTTO: That is quite a list. Let's bring in CNN's Chief Legal Analyst and one of our newest primetime anchors Laura Coates. So, Laura, this -- the release conditions for Donald Trump, one it has a bond of $200,000 but also a prohibition on intimidation through social media like Brianna was just taking off there. Witnesses, judges, prosecutors, you name it. What happens if Trump, as he is often done, breaks the rules as it were, breaks these specific rules, and attacks like that again?

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST & ANCHOR: Well, theoretically, one could have their conditions of release revoked, meaning you can no longer be free pending your trials.

SCIUTTO: As in, picked up and going to jail?

COATES: As in you're going to jail. You're picked up. That's the theory behind it. It could also take the course of what Judge Chutkan has said in DC, which is, look, these attacks are going to accelerate the actual trial date. I'll push it closer to ensure --

SCIUTTO: Right.

COATES: -- that I've got an unbiased jury, that I've got witnesses who are going to be inclined to actually testify. The real-time challenge here will be not whether maybe he'll violate but how you prove it. Because of all the different indictments he has pending, four to be exact, if he has a generalized statement on Truth Social where he talks about, you know, either you're with me or against me, or if you -- you know I'll come for you in some respects, which case are we talking about?

[14:10:10]

Is it a specific claim against an individual person, or a more generalized notion? A judge could look at this and say, well, is it my case you're referencing? Is it my witness? And maybe it's not and I can't do anything about it. Or they could say, you know, what? All is fair in love and prosecution and this is violative for that reason.

SCIUTTO: Well, it'd be quite a test. Another question. One co- defendant, David Schafer. He said in a court filing that he and the other fake electors acted at the direction of Trump. Is that incriminating for the former president if they're saying he told me to do it?

COATES: If they can prove it. Because of course, the natural retort would be no, I didn't. And you can't prove I can. The prosecutors have a burden of proof for showing that every single statement that they're trying to get into evidence can be corroborated. That there's credibility attached to it.

And one way to undermine his credibility in a courtroom is to suggest, oh, now you've changed your tune now that you're a co-defendant, but you had said nothing of the sort before you were actually implicated in the legal -- in the legal sense. So, it could be they can prove that aspect of it.

SCIUTTO: Right.

COATES: But the direction of whom is really why you see that high bond for Donald Trump compared to the other co-defendants. He is the presumptive ringleader in all this for RICO.

SCIUTTO: Right.

COATES: And so, if you are the kingpin in all these scenarios, then you being able to demonstrate as a lower defendant, so to speak, that the kingpin instructed something gets a stronger RICO case for the prosecution.

SCIUTTO: Understood. OK, another question. Schafer, along with Mark Meadows, of course, Trump's former chief of staff, and the former DOJ official Jeffrey Clark, they are all now attempting to move this to federal court. Does that have a realistic chance of success? And does it -- does it -- the Georgia case would continue as those things are being considered, but could it eventually delay things?

COATES: So, here's the basis. If you want the removal of a federal court, you got to prove, one, that you actually have some basis to do so. That what you were doing, and what you're accused of is under the "color of office."

SCIUTTO: Right.

COATES: Meaning, look, I want to have some level of immunity as you want your members of Congress, for example, or the executive branch and beyond to say, if you're just doing what is required of your job, you should not be held liable for doing it. But --

SCIUTTO: Even is that doing is allegedly criminal?

COATES: That's the key here, Jim. SCIUTTO: Right.

COATES: Because if what you're saying you're doing is the purview of the states, remember, it's the elections belong to the states. And there's really no business you have as a federal or of course, chief of staff to do anything about it. What was the color of the office?

The second criteria also were as well, what is your viable federal defense to your conduct? And again, that separation of powers and federalism aspects of it, say there's not a lot there. Finally, it may be a case of forum shopping for juries because obviously --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

COATES: -- a Fulton County demographic, everything in the District of Georgia, excuse me. But here's the key to remember. Even if it's removed, it's on a federal statute that's not implicated. It just means now that the state law that's implicated goes to the federal system.

SCIUTTO: Right.

COATES: But if you are convicted, it's still a state law violation --

SCIUTTO: And can't be --

COATES: And still can't be pardoned.

SCIUTTO: Understood. See? You think of everything, Laura Coates. Thank you so much.

COATES: If looking at you, Jim, you know?

SCIUTTO: We might -- we might have some more legal questions for you going forward. We'll see. Thank you so much. Brianna.

KEILAR: Well, the Secret Service has spent weeks working to secure former President Trump's surrender at Fulton County Jail. We'll more on what to expect and how it's different than his previous bookings. And while Trump prepares to turn himself in, his Republican primary opponents are preparing for the first debate in the hopes of chipping away at the former president's huge lead.

And then later, an LA hospital loses power forcing it to evacuate hundreds from a building that houses neonatal intensive care patients. You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL. And we'll be right back.

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[14:17:44]

KEILAR: Eight Republican candidates have qualified for the party's very first 2024 primary debate that is happening tomorrow night. But the clear front-runner in the race, former President Donald Trump, isn't going to be there. He has instead pre-recorded an interview with Tucker Carlson that is expected to air during the debate. And then the following day, he says that he will turn himself in over a fourth indictment for alleged election meddling in Georgia which obviously will take a lot of attention off of the debate.

CNN's Steve Contorno is joining us live with more on this. OK, Steve, how are these other candidates preparing for a kind of unusual debate here?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Well, one thing they're doing leading up to the debate is criticizing Donald Trump for not showing up. They have suggested that he is acting like he is entitled to the nomination. For example, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis said "Trump owes it to the people to be there tomorrow night."

Haley has said it's hard to earn support if your absence. And Chris Christie went so far as to call Trump a coward. Now, not all of the Republican candidates feel this way. Vivek Ramaswamy, the conservative entrepreneur said he doesn't mind if Trump isn't there tomorrow. Take a listen to what he said.

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VIVEK RAMASWAMY, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If he refuses to debate through the entire debate season, I have an issue with that. But I have no issue with him skipping the first couple of debates. The truth is, I -- many people in this country didn't even know who I was six months ago. So, this is a good opportunity for me to introduce myself to the country.

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CONTORNO: Now, if Trump doesn't show up tomorrow which he said he will -- he won't, DeSantis's allies are preparing for him to become the focal point of tomorrow night's debate. He will be at center stage next to Ramaswamy and he says that he believes he will be coming under fire from all sides.

But this is an opportunity for several of these candidates who have not had a chance to speak in front of such a large audience before to have their moment in the spotlight. Someone like for example, Doug Burgum, the North Dakota governor. He has never spoken to an audience this large before and he's going to get an opportunity to make his case and share his vision.

It will be interesting, though, to see candidates like Mike Pence, who have made their campaign so much about presenting a contrast against Trump. You know, he has been very sharply criticizing Trump lately for what he did on January six, his attempts to overturn the election.

[14:20:09]

It would have been very compelling to have someone -- have Mike Pence stand alongside Donald Trump on a debate stage. And Pence actually went so far as to hold mock debate sessions that included Trump. But, Brianna, now that is not going to happen.

KEILAR: It isn't. But that would be an interesting moment indeed. Steve Contorno, thank you, live for us from Florida. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation now with CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist Karen Finney and CNN senior political analyst Gloria Borger. Also with us is CNN senior political commentator and former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who is also the honorary chairman of the Country First PAC.

And, Congressman, let's start there because as part of our conversation yesterday, you mentioned that you've been in touch with Chris Christie. He actually spoke at a town hall hosted by your Pac yesterday. Let's share a clip with viewers.

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CHRIS CHRISTIE, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For some folks, they believe this is a political calculus that somehow Donald Trump will be defeated by the legal process. And that when he is if they're the ones who have said nothing bad about Donald Trump, that they're more likely to inherit the Donald Trump voters. Well, I'll tell you something. If you want to know what a failure that strategy is, talk to me or Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio.

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SANCHEZ: Congressman, Christie is one of the few candidates on the stage tomorrow night that has adopted that strategy of going directly after Trump. And the reward has been single-digit support. But do you believe there's still a path broad enough for a Republican not named Donald Trump?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I do. I believe there's a path big enough if, you know, some people start speaking out. I mean, if you just have one person speaking out or two, you can kind of point to them as outliers. You know if it's just a son of Chris Christie.

If more people join, then all of a sudden the base looks at that and goes, OK there's a real problem here because the people we trust are telling us there's a problem. So eventually, we believe that there may be. So, I think that's part of the issue. It's just like, you know, we've got a few people that are willing to speak out, some aren't willing to speak out.

And the great thing about that thing -- that line you just had with Chris Christie, he was there. I mean, we all remember, we all can think back to 2016 when you know I was guilty of it, I assumed that there was no way Donald Trump could win. And even up until frankly, he was elected president, I thought like there'd be some miracle that would happen.

And Chris Christie knows that. And he knows that this is just a repeat of 2016. So, he's speaking now. Others need to join too because by the way, if you think sitting back and not criticizing the former president is going to work, it's not working for any of these people. Nobody is really in the -- in the double digits. Although Christie's in second place in New Hampshire. SANCHEZ: Gloria, the approach here is difficult because if you go after the former president, you won't get his base. But then if you don't go after him, you have to hope that somehow he gets in meshed in his legal trouble. And that defeats him. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. It's threading the needle. And it's crazy. It's very, very difficult for these candidates who do it. Some of them aren't doing it. Ramaswamy, for example, might as well just get out of the race and endorse Donald Trump.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

BORGER: I mean, he's -- you know, there's no criticism of Donald Trump there. But if you're Mike Pence, for example, and you are out there now, really, really talking about what happened on January six and saying that you know Donald Trump asked me to pick him over the Constitution and I would never do that, you can't just stop. You have to continue with your criticism.

You can't sort of thread the needle and say, but oh, by the way, I'd vote for him. Oh, by the way -- you know, by the way, I would -- I -- you know, we did a lot of great things together that --

SANCHEZ: Yes.

BORGER: That I respect him for. So, maybe he's not that bad. I think he -- you know you have to tell the public what a disaster you really think Donald Trump would be if that is what you believe.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I think that debate is an opportunity. It's less about, yes, you've got to take on Trump, but I think it's more about two things. Be likable, right?

BORGER: Yes.

FINNEY: Because a publicize -- you know, a televised debate is an opportunity for people to watch who maybe haven't really paid attention from the Republican primary electorate, who may be open to voting for someone other than Trump. You want to connect and be likable to those folks, or talking about them. Don't talk about yourself and don't talk about Donald Trump for like five seconds.

And number two, it's about fundraising. It's about trying to have a moment that goes viral where you can then --

BORGER: Well --

FINNEY: hop out a press release, raise some money, and which I think is an important strategy because as we know, the whole conversation is going to switch right back to Trump --

SANCHEZ: Yes.

FINNEY: -- right after the debate because of Thursday.

BORGER: Well, and it's so difficult when you have so many candidates on stage.

FINNEY: Yes.

BORGER: You can -- you can maybe get some kind of a moment that will last until tomorrow -- you know, the day right before the arraignment.

FINNEY: The next morning?

SANCHEZ: Trump surrenders, right?

BORGER: Right.

FINNEY: Exactly.

[14:25:03]

BORGER: But when you have that many candidates debating --

SANCHEZ: It's tough.

BORGER: -- it's really hard to say, look at me, look at me, and be remembered for that moment.

SANCHEZ: We do have a lot of memorable moments. As a matter of fact, we have a montage we want to play for you. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN QUAYLE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did.

LLOYD BENTSEN, 1998 DEMOCRATIC VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Jack Kennedy with a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience.

RICK PERRY, FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's three agencies of government when I get there that are gone. Commerce, education, and the -- what's the third one there? Let's say --

JOHN HARWOOD, DEBATE HOST: But you can't name the third one.

PERRY: The third agency of government I would -- I would do away with -- the education, the --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: commerce.

PERRY: I -- commerce. And let's see, I can't. The third one, I can't. Sorry. Oops.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let's dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's what Washington, DC does. That drive-by shot at the beginning with incorrect and incomplete information, and then the memorized 25-second speech that is exactly what his advisers gave him.

RUBIO: This notion that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing is just not true.

CHRISTIE: There it is.

RUBIO: He knows what he's doing.

CHRISTIE: The memorized 25-second speech.

RUBIO: Well, that's the -- that's the reason why --

CHRISTIE: There it is, everybody.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Congressman Kinzinger, as you watch that, we talked about with Karen, a candidate being likable and perhaps creating a moment. I'm wondering from you. Can Chris Christie gather some momentum here, or how about Tim Scott, who's mostly been positive through this campaign season?

KINZINGER: Yes, I think it's possible. It's funny here. And that again, I'm just -- I just start rolling because it's like, that was pretty brutal. That was a brutal one, especially the Chris Christie one.

Yes. I mean, look, he's -- Ramaswamy, he's got to -- like Chris Christie has a chance to really call him out on some of this kind of asinine things he's been saying on the campaign trail. And really to call out people like Tim Scott, who, you know, has a positive vision but won't say anything about Donald Trump, that's where I think Chris Christie been -- can be really effective is to point out sort of the hypocrisy here.

He's going to be the one I think aggressively going after Donald Trump, while everybody else on stage is going to try to go after somebody else on that stage, so they can look tough, but not offend any of the Trump people. So, they'll pick somebody and be really tough on that person, and not the actual front-runner that they're competing against. It's going to be amazing.

BORGER: I think Christie is going to go -- going to go after DeSantis also. I think. And he'll probably go after him on foreign policy, for example, Ukraine.

SANCHEZ: Talk about Ukrainians.

FINNEY: Yes.

BORGER: The difficulty is, and that happened in the Rubio exchange and I remember that also, is that sometimes if you're too tough and you're going after people standing next to you on stage, and there are a lot of them, you can look like a bully.

FINNEY: Yes.

BORGER: And people won't like you, to your point --

FINNEY: Exactly.

BORGER: -- about being likable. So, it's a very, very fine line here.

SANCHEZ: Quickly, Karen, we only have a few seconds. I'm wondering how closely you think the White House is going to be watching this given that the front-runner isn't even going to be up on stage?

FINNEY: Well, that's why the White House or the campaign at least has released these ads in Wisconsin talking about the economy, taking that issue head on and trying to show a contrast, I think between what you're going to see on the stage, the attacks, and you know, here's what Biden's doing for the economy.

SANCHEZ: Karen Finney, Gloria Borger, Congressman Adam Kinzinger, thank you all so much. We'll be watching very closely tomorrow night. Jim?

Of course, don't forget to get the critical context and political analysis you need after the debate wraps up. Anderson Cooper and Dana Bash are hosting "THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE: POST-DEBATE ANALYSIS" live tomorrow night at 11:00 Eastern on CNN. Sorry, Jim. I had to get that in there.

SCIUTTO: That's important. When we come back, Texas and the Department of Justice faced off in federal court over the border buoys on the Rio Grande. Details from that hearing. Just ahead.

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