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Trump Expected To Surrender Thursday In GA; Ex-Trump Campaign Atty Jenna Ellis Reaches $100,000 Bail Agreement; Fake GOP Elector Tied To Coffee County Breach Reaches Bond Agreement With Prosecutors; FOX News Pulls Spin Room Credentials For Trump Surrogates At First GOP Debate. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 22, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:27]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: We're following extraordinary developments in Fulton County, Georgia. The first of former President Trump's 18 co-defendants are beginning to surrender at the Fulton County jail and we're getting new details on their legal strategies moving forward.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: The stage is set. Eight candidates set to fight for their political future without the frontrunner by a long shot in attendance. But just because he is off the stage does not mean the former president will not be a big focus of this battle.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And student loan forgiveness take two after the Supreme Court dealt a major blow to President Biden's promise to ease college debt, his administration rolling out a new plan, so does this one pass legal muster?

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: We are tracking some fast moving developments out of Atlanta tied to the 2020 Election interference indictment against former president, Trump, and 18 of his allies. This morning, two co- defendants turned themselves in at the Fulton County jail, two filed to get the case kicked over to federal court and defense lawyers for a host of others have been shuffling in and out of the courthouse for meetings with DA Fani Willis' team.

Looming over all of that activity is the biggest surrender of all that, of course, by the former president. Trump says that he will turn himself in on Thursday and this will be his fourth time being booked on criminal charges.

CNN's Zachary Cohen is posted outside of the jail where all of this is going to be happening.

Zach, it wasn't Trump, but we did see a high profile defendant surrender today. Tell us about this.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Brianna, conservative attorney John Eastman is really described in the indictment from Fani Willis as one of the architects of the broader effort to overturn the 2020 Election. And today he was - he surrendered to the jail behind me and was treated like any other defendant who would come to surrender themselves after being charged with potential crimes.

Now, Eastman does maintain that he did nothing wrong, that he was simply asked - acting as Trump's attorney, that he was giving advice to Trump based on his role as legal counsel. And listen to what he told reporters after he emerged from the jail from being processed and booked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN EASTMAN, TRUMP CO-DEFENDANT: It represents a crossing of the Rubicon for our country, implicating the fundamental First Amendment right to petition the government for redress of grievances. As troubling, it targets attorneys for their zealous advocacy on behalf of their clients, something attorneys are ethically bound to provide and which was attempted here by formally challenging the results of the election through lawful and appropriate means. An opportunity never afforded them or their clients in the Fulton County superior court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So while Eastman was inside the jail behind me, he was fingerprinted, he was searched and he took a mugshot just like any other defendant would. That was according to his lawyer. But Eastman came out, when he talked to reporters, he said he still absolutely believes the 2020 Election was stolen. Of course, he did not provide any evidence to support that claim, but it does show you where John Eastman's head is at and sort of how - a window into how these defendants are being treated when they turn themselves in to the Fulton County jail after facing criminal charges.

[15:05:02]

KEILAR: Zach, can you tell us anything about the process? This is a little different, obviously, going to a jail. What is it like?

COHEN: Yes, Brianna, in a lot of ways it's similar to just like anybody else that would turn themselves in or surrender to a jail. As you were talking about earlier, Eastman was fingerprinted. He took a mugshot just like anybody else would.

Now that remains to be seen if that will happen for the former president when he is expected to arrive here on Thursday to do the same. Obviously, we're in sort of uncharted waters here a little bit. A former president has not had to surrender himself to the Fulton County jail before, but so far the two defendants that we know that have surrendered have been treated just like any other defendant in any other criminal case.

KEILAR: We shall see. It will be extraordinary if that's the case.

Zach Cohen live for us from the Fulton County jail, Boris?

SANCHEZ: We want to take you now a few minutes down the road to the courthouse in Atlanta with CNN's Katelyn Polantz. Because, Katelyn, negotiations have been ongoing all day behind closed doors behind you. Walk us through some of the agreements that have been hashed out.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: We, at this point, have seen about half of the people that are charged in this case have some sort of negotiations with the prosecutors. And we're starting to see how these bonds are being set for each of these defendants.

And there are essentially two groups. There are the groups that are getting six-figure bonds and there are the group - there's the group that is getting lower bond amounts than that. And the group with the six-figure bond amounts, a hundred thousand dollars, $200,000 bond in the situation of Donald Trump, those are the people that were at the top of the campaign or the top of the legal pyramid working around Donald Trump after the election, the people who are accused of being really at the center or the fulcrum of this racketeering charge. The sort of allegations that say that these were the people pulling things together to try and block the election's result, try to stop the Georgia popular vote from being solidified and trying to stop Congress from allowing Joe Biden to take the presidency, which he had rightfully won.

And so when we're looking at these, we have seen about six different people, either their attorneys have come in today or we've gotten their bond negotiation paperwork to look at. And those people are representative of other aspects of this investigation.

It's not just the people at the top of the pyramid. It is people - a man accused of intimidating Ruby Freeman, the election worker in Georgia. His attorneys are meeting with prosecutors today to negotiate that bond, Jenna Ellis, Mike Roman, two of the top advisors around the Trump campaign and Donald Trump. They also have their agreements coming in, fake electors in Georgia. They have had their bond agreements.

And so as we see all of these get solidified over here at the courthouse with the district attorney's office and judges sign off on them, then those people can head over to the jail and be arrested to move forward on this case.

SANCHEZ: And Katelyn, just as you've been delivering the details of those deals, we actually learned just into CNN that ex-Trump campaign attorney Jenna Ellis reached an agreement for a hundred thousand dollars bail. And we're seeing, I believe, video of her either entering or exiting - her attorneys either entering or exiting the courthouse now.

She's obviously been charged with one count of violating Georgia's RICO Act and soliciting a public officer to violate their oath. She has a history of defending the former president. Now, she's agreed to a bond deal worth a hundred thousand dollars. POLANTZ: That's right and the thing to note about that is that some of

these defendants, this is the, how I was speaking about two different classes of defendants, essentially in the way these bond agreements are set up. Jenna Ellis would be one of the top people around Trump and is charged with fewer crimes, but the allegations are - in the racketeering case against her and Trump and others, she is central to much of those efforts.

And so even if she has fewer felony charges that she's going to be facing, pleading not guilty to very likely, and trying to contest in court, she's in a different space getting a hundred thousand dollars bond compared to others today who are getting 50,000 or 75,000 who may be charged on the books with more federal - or I'm sorry, with more state crimes at this point in time.

SANCHEZ: Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for that.

Jim, this is obviously a significant development. Jenna Ellis playing a major role in Trump's effort to overturn the 2020 Election, at least publicly.

SCIUTTO: That's right. And yet, Jenna Ellis has resorted to crowdfunding to pay her mounting legal fees. She's publicly questioned why Trump and his super PAC that he formed are not helping her out. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNA ELLIS: So far, President Trump and the campaign have not given me anything for my legal defense. I have also not personally asked him.

[15:10:03]

I have not asked the campaign. I don't know what, if any, he has given or the campaign has given to other attorneys or other people who have been attacked through this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN Reporter Marshall Cohen joins me now.

Sad fact is for many of the folks who participated in this and are now facing criminal charges, they're not getting help from the former president, although he has raised many 10s of millions of dollars to cover his own legal fees.

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Jim. They're going to have to fend for themselves most of the key players in this Georgia indictment, it appears. As you mentioned, Jenna Ellis was a Trump campaign attorney who presented bogus debunked claims of voter fraud to state lawmakers in Georgia in 2020. That's why she's facing charges now.

And you just heard her comments earlier this morning saying that the cavalry is not coming. She's not expecting any money from former President Trump or his political groups. But I can think of one good reason why she's not on the Trump team anymore, Jim. She's supporting Ron DeSantis in the 2024 presidential race. She's even been mocking Donald Trump for skipping the debate tomorrow night, so she's not on his side anymore and clearly he's not on her side.

SCIUTTO: Now, there are some that the president puts on his side or at least his side of the ledger in terms of who he's paying for, who gets the money and who doesn't.

COHEN: I mean, we have seen in some of the other cases that Donald Trump is facing, like the Mar-A-Lago trial down in Florida. His group is funding the lawyers for his co-defendants, his body man, Walt Nauta and his property manager at Mar-A-Lago, Carlos De Oliveira. Their lawyers are paid for by Donald Trump, and they've stayed very loyal so far.

But when it comes to some of the other players and as many of the lower level players, they're going to have to fend for themselves. But so far, Jim, she's done a pretty good job. Jenna Ellis, she has raised almost a hundred thousand dollars on that crowdfunding website so far.

SCIUTTO: Interesting. It's a start.

Marshall Cohen, thanks so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. We do have some more breaking news right now into CNN. Lawyers for Cathy Latham, who allegedly acted as one of the fake electors in Georgia, among other actions that she is alleged to have taken has struck a $75,000 bond agreement with prosecutors.

I want to bring in Katelyn Polantz for the very latest on this.

Seventy-five thousand dollars, tell us what Cathy Latham's alleged role was in this. It's very interesting.

POLANTZ: Well, Cathy Latham has a two-part role here, in that she was a fake elector for Donald Trump after the election and also had a role in Coffee County, Georgia. That area - a rural area outside of Atlanta, where different people in the Republican Party were interested and people in the elections office were interested in getting some sort of access to vote tabulating machines.

And Sidney Powell, the lawyer who was working for Trump after the election, she was really one of the central figures around this and is accused in taking part in that scheme as well. But Cathy Latham is an important figure just because she's politically connected here in Georgia.

And so that is another theme that we're seeing here as these defendants and their lawyers come in one by one. These are people who are known and involved in Republican politics in this state that are involved in elections in this state, and are often, some of them are quite well known in their communities, having large roles either as elected officials or just civic leaders of different stripes.

And so Cathy Latham is one of those people who is getting a bond of $75,000 at this time, has not been over to the jail yet to be arrested that we know of, but she is accused of crimes here in this racketeering case against the former president to try and overturn the result of the popular vote here in Georgia as part of a scheme for Trump to hold onto the presidency after the election.

KEILAR: And so she, Katelyn, has said that she was not personally involved in the breach of voter data there in Coffee County, where she was the former chair of the GOP, but she can be seen in surveillance video. Can you tell us what she appears to be seen doing there?

POLANTZ: I believe so. I believe she's in surveillance video that is captured inside of this election office. But one of the things in this case is that we don't see the evidence just yet. If there are things in the public domain that we have seen out there, like video of an elections office like that from previously, that is not necessarily spelled out in the charges from the Georgia prosecutors at this time.

And so we would need to wait to trial to see exactly how this will factor into the case. But I'm looking right now at one of the counts for Cathy Latham.

[15:15:00]

There's several of them related to computer crimes, invasion of privacy, some other computer breach-related crimes. And those are the sorts of things that are quite serious that raise quite a bit of alarm, because it is a question of whether people were accessing protected machines for voters in a county in Georgia who were not supposed to or who were not authorized to even if they were elected officials or people working in elections in some way.

KEILAR: Yes. We're showing some of that surveillance video right now. It's such a good point that you make there, Katelyn. And that, look, this is someone who isn't a household name necessarily after all of this, but obviously someone who in this case may have played a very significant role. And obviously, a lot of this is to be seen, what comes out in this case.

Katelyn Polantz live for us from Atlanta, thank you so much for that.

Joining us now to discuss is Norm Eisen. He was special counsel for the House Judiciary in former President Trump's first impeachment trial. And also Clark Cunningham, who is a law professor at Georgia State University.

All right. First off, let's react, Norm, if you will, to what we have just learned about this deal being struck here, $75,000 when it comes to Cathy Latham. There is someone else involved in this alleged breach and they did not strike a deal where it was $75,000, it was $10,000. So what does that tell you about her involvement?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Cathy Latham was involved in multiple dimensions, Brianna, because she was one of the alleged false electors. Part of the thing that is unique about Fani Willis' case, unlike Jack Smith with his focus on Trump, she - Fani Willis really explains that this reached down into the states. You couldn't have had this alleged conspiracy without state Republican

officials like Cathy Latham, who signed those counterfeit documents. But that wasn't her only role. She's also involved in the breach, allegedly, of those voting machines, a variety of Georgia statutes that have been charged in the indictment in the nature of computer trespass or hacking for going into these voting machines, again, to try to prove a baseless conspiracy.

So she's in the medium to high range. We have Trump, $200,000. We have the legal - alleged ringleaders, Clark or rather Eastman and Chesbrough.

KEILAR: Mm-hm.

EISEN: They are at the hundred thousand dollar range, she's just below that, but certainly much more than some of the lower level officials.

KEILAR: And Clark, we saw John Eastman in public today, obviously a very central figure here, one person turning himself in ahead of this deadline. He sent a statement through his lawyers. And what he is basically arguing here is that he was just doing his job, that he was ethically bound to challenge the results of the election, ethically bound to zealously provide services on behalf of his client. What do you make of that defense?

PROF. CLARK CUNNINGHAM, GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: I don't think it's a good defense at all. What we're seeing is that the fake - he's at the head of the fake elector scheme, which was the most dangerous part of the RICO conspiracy that's alleged by the district attorney.

And it appears that Eastman was involved in getting these electoral certificates from Georgia and elsewhere under false pretenses. He was part of a scheme to tell these electors that these alternate electoral certificates would only be used if Trump won a lawsuit. That was false. That's not what happened. He and others were lying to these electors.

And in fact, they got these certificates under false pretenses and then used them to present to the vice president in an effort to prevent Biden from being certified as president. That's all him. That's nothing to do with the First Amendment. That's nothing to do with free speech. That's nothing to do with being a zealous advocate for your client.

KEILAR: Yes. And it was his privilege, actually, that was one of the first - Norm - I think the first actually to be pierced when it came to, hey, is what you're doing for your client actually lawyering or is what you're doing something that's illegal. He spoke to reporters. We saw this video after his release from jail today. He says he still believes the election was stolen, as I suppose many of these alleged co-conspirators do. What do you think about that and how that works towards his defense?

EISEN: I think it's going to be an extremely unlikely to succeed factual defense before a judge and a jury here, Brianna, because authority after authority have found that the election was not stolen. That is not something that can be factually substantiated at all.

[15:20:03]

And Eastman continuing to hang on to that after there's so much evidence that it's false is just not going to avail him. It's as bad as his legal arguments. He's claiming somehow legally the vice president - his arguments - had the power to suspend Congress or recognize the electors of the loser or send it back to state legislatures to recognize the electors of the one who lost the election.

Come on. It's not going to work legally. It's not going to work factually. He's in a lot of trouble.

KEILAR: And Clark, co-defendant, David Shafer, he's the former Georgia GOP chairman, fake elector as well. He said in the court filing that he and the other fake electors "acted at the direction of former President Trump" while also arguing that his case should move to federal court. You have co-defendants, Mark Meadows and Jeffrey Clark, arguably bigger fish here, they're also trying to move their cases to federal court. What do you make of these arguments?

CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I think what Shafer filed, I think it was today, in an effort to get his case moved to federal court, could be devastating for the former president, because David Shafer explicitly places the entire responsibility for the fake electoral thing squarely on Donald Trump. He says, I was acting at his personal direction.

He does that because the only - he's trying to get into federal court under a law that says even if you're not an officer of the United States, if you are acting under the officer's direction, you can get to federal court. He is making that statement to get to federal court. But at the same time, implicating Trump directly in the fake elector scheme. This is a very important development in the case, I think.

KEILAR: Certainly, and we will keep our eye on that.

Clark Cunningham, Norm Eisen, thank you so much to both of you on this very busy day.

CUNNINGHAM: Privileged to be with you, Brianna.

KEILAR: Thank you, sir, so much. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Coming up, we'll bring you more details on the threats the Fulton County Sheriff's Office is facing ahead of Trump's surrender.

Plus, debate day eve. We're going to break down the strategy for these eight 2024 Republican hopefuls ahead of the showdown, how they keep attention on the stage and not on the elephant not in the room?

And later, the Biden administration officially rolling out a new student loan program. We'll see if it passes legal muster.

Those stories and more coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[15:26:29]

SCIUTTO: Since former President Trump, the current front runner, of course, will not be participating in the first Republican debate of 2024 tomorrow night, FOX News has just informed his campaign that in turn, they will not provide credentials for at least some Trump surrogates who had planned to be in the debate spin room before and after the debate. Others will be allowed.

I'm now joined by a man who has moderated some presidential debates before, Chris Wallace, host of CNN's "Who's Talking to Chris Wallace?" Thanks so much for being here.

CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: I've even hosted debates on FOX.

SCIUTTO: You have.

WALLACE: For presidential debates.

SCIUTTO: So you know a thing or two about this.

WALLACE: Yep.

SCIUTTO: Let me start with a very basic question, is a presidential debate without the leading candidate, and by the way, the leading candidate by far, what is it? And does it matter?

WALLACE: Well, it - it'll - yes, it still matters in a democracy, a lot of people are still making up their minds. We're five months away from Iowa. But I'll give you a sense of audience participation.

In 2016, we did at FOX, the first debate, Donald Trump, 24 million people, the biggest non-sports audience in the history of cable television. In January, just before the Iowa caucuses, we did a debate, Trump skipped that one, 12 million viewers. So half the audience and my guess is whatever they're going to get tomorrow night will be much less than they would have gotten were Trump on the stage.

SCIUTTO: And perhaps Trump being very conscious of ratings is aware of that. So one thing that's different about Iowa, you know this better than anybody, is that in caucuses, second choices matter. Because eventually you add those up and you can get to a point where that - the second choice votes and the first choice votes get added up.

What do these eight candidates who are currently in distant second place at best, what do they need to do to stand out, to perhaps make some progress in Iowa?

WALLACE: Well, I think they have to do a couple of things. First of all, they can't be looking for second place votes. They've got to be looking for first place votes and - for people, because this is not just an Iowa debate.

SCIUTTO: Of course. WALLACE: This is a debate for the whole country. They somehow have to

break through this. The latest poll, Trump was ahead by 46 points of DeSantis ...

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WALLACE: ... and all the others were in single digits.

SCIUTTO: Mm-hm.

WALLACE: So you've got to somehow break that hold. I don't think you do it by going insulting Trump supporters, but you do have to make a credible case as to why you should be the nominee and not Trump. And so I think to a certain degree that's whether it's policy, whether it's persona, you've got to look big on that stage, you've got to stand out somehow, a viral moment, a lot of this is social media people who don't watch the debate ...

SCIUTTO: Yep.

WALLACE: ... but watch the coverage afterwards.

SCIUTTO: Mm-hm.

WALLACE: And somehow make an impression.

SCIUTTO: Adam Kinzinger, a former Republican congressman, he made an interesting point last hour regarding what these candidates have to do. Have a listen. I want to get your thoughts on it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I believe there's a path big enough if some people start speaking out. I mean, if you just have one person speaking out or two, you can kind of point to them as outliers. If it's just Asa (ph) and Chris Christie.

If more people join, then all of a sudden the base looks at that and goes, okay, there's a real problem here because the people we trust are telling us there's a problem, so eventually we believe that there may be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He went on to say that he doesn't expect many folks to take on Trump directly and that he doesn't see that as a winning strategy.

[15:30:01]

He said you basically have to choose and move forward. You can't try to straddle that fence and I wonder if you can give me that.

WALLACE: I think you can go after Trump but there's a very skillful and meticulous way you've to do it, with a scalpel, not with a sledgehammer.