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Giuliani Heads to Atlanta; Two Co-Defendants Surrender in Fulton County; Eastman's Defense in Fulton County Case; Burgum Debate Attendance in Question; Eight Candidates Face Off Tonight. Aired 9- 9:30a ET

Aired August 23, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:50]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Mug shots, fingerprints and bond deals. A flurry of activity in Donald Trump's Georgia election fraud case. The clock ticking as the former president and 14 more co-defendants have a couple of days to turn themselves in.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Moments ago, Rudy Giuliani leaving his New York home, literally headed to jail in Georgia. His surrender could come in the next few hours as new questions arise about how he will pay for his legal defense.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And for the first time of the 2024 race we get to say it, it is debate day in America, friends. Eight Republicans getting ready to take the debate stage in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but one of them just got injured playing basketball. Full stop.

A wild 24 hours ahead. I'm Kate Bolduan, with John Berman and Sara Sidner. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BERMAN: So, happening now, Rudy Giuliani is on his way to Georgia to surrender. The former New York City mayor once served as a lawyer for Donald Trump, literally helping him write in to two impeachments, and holding court at Four Seasons Landscaping. Now Giuliani himself faces the most charges, along with Trump, for trying to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia. He said this moments before boarding a plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I don't know if I plead today. But if I do, I plead not guilty. And I get photographed. Isn't that nice. A mugshot for the man who probably put the worst criminals of the 20th century in jail. You find a prosecutor who has a better record of mine in the last 100 years. I bet you don't. Or a mayor. And they're going to -- they're going to - they're going to degrade themselves by doing a mugshot of me. Like people will recognize me.

And then, of course, they can fingerprint me, but I've been fingerprinted 150 times. So, this will turn out exactly like the FBI search turned out. They're lying. I'm telling the truth. They're destroying my right to counsel, my right to be a lawyer.

They're destroying his right to counsel. It's not accidental that they've indicted all of the lawyers. I never heard of that before in America.

Now they've indicted people in this case, I don't even know who they are. These are just regular people making a normal living. They're going to bankrupt them. They won't convict them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Once Giuliani gets to Georgia, he is expected to go first to the DA's office to discuss his bond agreement. Once a deal is struck, he could then go directly to jail and not collect $200, although that would be useful to him because he seems to be having issues paying for his defense.

Katelyn Polantz is live outside the courthouse.

About to be a lot more going on in Georgia, Katelyn.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Of course, John. This morning we are awaiting the arrival of Rudy Giuliani now that he is in the air or on the road at least to get to Georgia today. And what we're expecting is that Giuliani wants everything to be taken care of that he needs to do to respond to this criminal indictment. He wants it all to happen today. He wants his bond negotiation to happen and have that set and done and then he also wants to go to the jail and be arrested, apparently, according to the reporting we've put together here at CNN on what his intentions are.

The reason for that is because he wants to get it done before Donald Trump would be coming in to town tomorrow. There is a lot of questions around their relationship, how it is existing right now, if they are going to be taking the same approach to this case and other investigations around January 6th, like the federal investigation. But it is a really big moment for Rudy Giuliani to be coming here as perhaps one of the most well-known former prosecutors in America, and, obviously, one of the most well-known people among the people charged in this case among the 19, except for maybe Donald Trump himself.

We have seen more than half of the people who were indicted in this case already go through their bond negotiations. We're starting to see them turn themselves in, be arrested, have mug shots taken even.

[09:05:01]

And so Rudy Giuliani will be one of the next ones to put on that list. Really important to see exactly how it goes for him today because he's had a couple hard weeks where even money has been difficult for him to come by to fight some of these cases.

BERMAN: No, absolutely. How he is paying for his defense, very much an issue right now. We will be following the former mayor's movements. Katelyn, keep us posted. Thank you very much.

Sara.

SIDNER: Overnight, two more of Donald Trump's co-defendants surrendered to the Fulton County Jail in Georgia. Both were key players in the fake elector plot in that state. If you're keeping count, that's now four co-defendants who have been booked and processed. The 15 who remain, including Donald Trump of course, have until noon on Friday to turn themselves in.

Cathy Latham is the former chair of the Coffee County Republican Party. She faces nearly a dozen charges. Latham was one of the individuals who falsely tried to certify Donald Trump as the winner of the 2020 presidential election in Georgia.

And David Shafer is the former chairman of the Georgia Republican Party. He faces eight charges for his role in organizing and participating in that fake elector plot.

CNN's Nick Valencia is outside the Fulton County Jail.

Nick, it's going to be a busy next couple of 48 hours. You have 15 more people, including the former president, who have to turn themselves in.

What's the latest?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sara, there has been a lot of activity outside the Fulton County Jail. And we expect more major developments today with the expected arrival of Rudy Giuliani. But it was overnight that David Shafer, the former GOP chairman here in the state of Georgia, turned himself in. He was charged and indicted in this case for his role in organizing the Trump campaign's slate of fake electors. Of course, those 16 individuals tried to subvert the Electoral College and say that Trump won the state of Georgia when he really lost. So, Shafer has said in a court filing that he acted at the direction of the incumbent president, as well as other federal officials.

And in addition to Shafer, we also saw Cathy Latham. She is the former chairman of rural Coffee County's GOP party. And she was charged as well for being a fake elector, as well as her role in the illegal accessing of voting data in rural Coffee County. Latham has said that she was not personally involved in that breach.

And look, Sara, it is very interesting because we've been talking to defense attorneys in Fulton County who tell us that their clients in the past who have had bond, much like these defendants, have shown up at this facility and have waived their first appearance by signing that bond, or agreeing to that bond. But at best the process takes hours or at worst it could take several days.

These defendants have been in and out in about an hour, an hour and 15 minutes. The Fulton County sheriff has said that he's going to treat everyone equally, including these defendants in the subversion case. We should see if that applies to the former president when he is surrendering -- or expected to surrender sometime on Thursday.

Sara.

SIDNER: Nick Valencia, thank you.

We've been looking at live pictures of the Fulton County Jail. And then that is the courthouse there, as we are waiting for the rest of the folks that are charged to be processed and mug shots taken.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: In moments after his arrest and booking, co-defendant and former Trump attorney John Eastman, he spoke to reporters outside the jail.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN EASTMAN, CO-DEFENDANT, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I'm here today to surrender to an indictment that should never have been brought. I am confident that when the law is faithfully applied in this proceeding, all of my co-defendants and I will be fully vindicated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still think the election was stolen?

EASTMAN: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely? Still?

EASTMAN: No question. No question in my mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Joining me now, CNN's senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

So, that is John Eastman there.

I want to play something also from one of his attorneys on Erin Burnett's show last night because it's an interesting legal argument and defense that they might now start - starting -- be starting to set up.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARVEY SILVERGLATE, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN EASTMAN: His role was 100 percent that of a lawyer trying to come up with creative ideas that pushed the margin of the law in order to reverse the Electoral College count. So, he's unique. He is on trial for being a lawyer who was coming up with creative ideas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: So, he's testing out a theory, pushing the boundaries, but not doing anything illegal. What is he trying to do here? ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it is correct to say that

bad lawyering is not a crime. Bad lawyering cannot be a crime. Aggressive lawyering, you know, reaching for a legal argument, I mean, lawyers do that all the time. And it would really be a problem if that was a crime.

The problem with what we just heard Mr. Silverglate say is sort of is an end run around what the prosecutors are alleging, which is that he crossed the line -- John Eastman crossed the line, first of all, by one - at one point allegedly submitting false information to a court knowingly. That could cross the line.

And the other thing they allege is that John Eastman was a key player in the whole fake electors scheme and having people gather and falsely certify we are the dually elected electors for Donald Trump and then sending those documents into the archives.

[09:10:07]

So, the bad lawyering part is part of the story, but I don't think that's the crime. It should not be the crime. And prosecutors have to prove something more than that.

BOLDUAN: What isn't so clear is where that line - is it clear to you where the line is?

HONIG: Yes, I think the line is between making a theory that's aggressive or novel. Look, losing 9-0 in the Supreme Court, not a crime. Making an argument that you believe will lose 9-0 in the Supreme Court, also not a crime. Your job as a lawyer is, what's the best argument I can make on my client's behalf.

And even if you make an argument that's inappropriate, maybe you get sanctioned by the ethics bar of the court or something like that, but a criminal matter is a different thing. You have to show, as a prosecutor, beyond a reasonable doubt, conduct that was criminal. And knowingly submitting false information to a court could go to that.

Also, I mean, Mr. Silverglate just said, the goal here was to reverse the Electoral College. So, if you can prove that a lawyer was using the legal process to try to achieve an illegal end, that can get you there, too.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about Mark Meadows for a second also. He is asking in a new filing that a federal judge stop the local DA, stop Fani Willis from seeking his arrest in state charges, as we're seeing all play out this week, because they're waiting for a decision on whether or not his case will be moved from state court into federal court. Why?

HONIG: So Meadows, Jeffrey Clark and probably at some point Donald Trump will all argue, we were federal officials acting within the scope of our federal jobs, therefore the case should be moved over to federal court. That will be heard. It's in the process of being heard and decided by the federal court.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: It will take weeks.

What Meadows is asking here, that I think he has no shot on, is -- and, judge, while we're waiting, I want you to pause my surrender date, give me extra time to surrender. I don't think there's much chance that a federal judge is going to get involved in that level of micromanaging the logistics and nuances of when a person surrenders. I think the federal judge will say, I'm going to hear your case, I'm going to hear your briefing, I'm going to rule, but I'm not going to get involved in who surrenders when down in Fulton County.

BOLDUAN: Another one of the defendants, David Shafer, he's already turning himself in. He's the former state Republican chair -- chairman of the party. He's making a case in a court filing I wanted to ask you about. He says in this filing that he acted at the direction of the incumbent president and other federal officials. When you hear that, that sounds like a similar argument that's been made by some of the people who have been charged, convicted and sentenced some of the rioters after -- from the January 6th insurrection.

Does the argument being made in this case seem stronger?

HONIG: It does seem a little stronger. I don't think it's strong enough to win the day. The January 6th rioters who claimed, we thought we were acting on behalf of the president, that was an - just an absolute fabrication of a defense that carried no water. It hasn't succeeded for any of them.

What I think this person is arguing, though, he's trying to piggyback on to the potential federal immunity.

BOLDUAN: Right.

HONIG: If Donald Trump or anyone can show, what I was doing was within the scope of my job as president or chief of staff or DOJ official, like Jeffrey Clark, it was within the scope, it as necessary to do the job, it did not go beyond that, then they're going to have immunity, which means the cases get dismissed.

Now, I think that's an uphill climb for all of them.

BOLDUAN: OK.

HONIG: But I think what Mr. Shafer is trying to do is saying, I was part of that. I was acting as an agent on behalf of them, therefore, I should get that benefit, too. It's an aggressive argument. I don't think it's particularly likely to succeed. But that's what he's arguing.

BOLDUAN: Yes, should he -- should he have known - should he have known better I guess is always the question, of course.

HONIG: Yes.

BOLDUAN: It's really interesting how so quickly we're getting some of this - some of the groundwork for these legal arguments are - are being laid out. It's really interesting what we're going to be seeing.

HONIG: Yes, it's good inside into what's to come. But, remember, we're a couple days in, there are months and months of litigation ahead.

BOLDUAN: Elie says with a bright smile.

HONIG: I'm ready to go.

BOLDUAN: Thank you, Elie.

Sara.

SIDNER: Elie's already ready to try the case. What is going on here?

All right, just into our CNN newsroom, the first presidential Republican debate may have one less candidate taking part. A source telling us Governor Doug Burgum has been injured playing basketball with his staff. If he does attend, this is what the debate stage will look like. Candidates are arranged based on how they rank in the polls. Notice DeSantis and Vivek Ramaswamy right next to each other as one and two. They'll be taking the stage and battling it out right next to each other.

CNN's Jessica Dean joins us from Milwaukee this morning.

I guess there are some -- this was not on my bingo card, I have to say, that someone might miss the debate because of a basketball game. How is he doing at this hour? What do you know about his status?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Sara, this continues to be the theme of this presidential cycle, this primary cycle, is just surprises coming up at every turn. And my colleague, Dana Bash, reporting first on CNN this morning that Governor Doug Burgum did suffer this injury while playing basketball with his staff, a pickup game of basketball with his staff. He had to go to the emergency room. And at this point, as of this morning, it's unclear if he'll be able to stand up for the debate.

And, of course, he was really hoping to use this moment to really get his message out there, really expand his name ID, introduce himself to voters.

[09:15:03]

And so to miss this opportunity, especially after clearing both those fundraising and also polling thresholds would really be not a great thing for him. So we will -- we will keep an eye on that and be checking in to see if we expect to see him on that debate stage.

As you mentioned, there were eight candidates out of the field who did clear those hurdles to make it to the stage tonight, really nine, but, of course, the leader and the one that continues to suck up so much oxygen, former President Donald Trump, will not be on the stage tonight. And that is just a continued x factor in all of this. Of course, we know he's turning himself in, his fourth indictment in the last several months in Georgia, tomorrow. And in the meantime, all of these candidates will be on the stage trying to really break through and convince voters out there that they are the alternative to Donald Trump, who continues to lead all of them in national and early state polling by double digits.

And there in the center of the stage, who continues to come in, in second place, is Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who has come off the summer with a campaign reset. He's been on -- in Iowa, in New Hampshire, on the ground. His team is expecting him to take a lot of fire. And the question for him is, how will he respond to that? Could this be a breakout moment?

And what we have to remember, Sara, we've seen them on the trail. We've seen a lot of these candidates pitching themselves to voters in these early states. But for so many Americans this will be the first time they're hearing from them. It is a big moment for so many of them.

Sara.

SIDNER: We understand now, Jessica, that Doug Burgum has made it out of the hospital. We hope that he is OK. But it remains to be seen whether or not he will be able to attend the debate.

Thank you so much for all your reporting.

John.

BERMAN: Yes, much more on the ripple effects of Doug Burgum's absence potentially from the debate stage.

Also, who has the most to lose in this first Republican debate?

Also, a Mar-a-Lago employee changes his story completely according to court papers as soon as he gets a new lawyer not connected to Donald Trump. Now a key witness at the center of the Mar-a-Lago documents case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:21:13]

BERMAN: All right, Kate, there's something you'd like to say.

BOLDUAN: Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Let me say it again. It's debate day in America, friends.

BERMAN: Joining us to discuss is former senior spokeswoman for Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, CNN political commentator Karen Finney.

And we may have another special guest who pops up during the course of this conversation. I'll just tease that possibility.

Karen, there's this debate. These will be eight Republicans on stage, assuming that Doug Burgum, the North Dakota governor, makes it now that we know he's injured, on the disabled list. But let's start with Ron DeSantis, the man who will be at the center

of the stage, Karen. What do you think? Complete this sentence for me, the one thing Ron DeSantis has to avoid is blank.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Losing his cool. You know, Ron DeSantis has had a number of moments on the campaign trail and, frankly, we've even seen him as governor where he gets a little snarky, he kind of snaps. There's an infamous one where he goes into a group of school children and he says, we're not going to wear masks. And he's got to keep his cool because we also know that he is likely to be the target of a lot of attacks. Certainly I think it's fair to say Governor Christie is going to be gunning for him. So, to not lose his cool because, you know, these debates -- these early debates are really about likability. You want people who are maybe tuning in for the first time to take a second look, take a first look, take a second look and decide, hey, I'm going to go see that candidate next time they're in Iowa or New Hampshire.

BOLDUAN: But, Karen, do you really - do you want to be - do you want to be nice or do you want to hit hard?

FINNEY: You know, again, I think you can do both, right? I mean I think you have to both be likeable, you want to give the audience -- because, remember, this audience is -- are voters potentially who haven't paid attention yet, who might say, you know, I'm open to somebody other than Donald Trump. So, you want to give them -- you do need to have some positive message that you're selling, not just attack, because attacks can really backfire. If you come off as too mean or nasty, that can also turn people off. So, you can attack in a firm way without being seen as a bully or just being nasty or even what might be considered, you know, kind of a low blow.

BERMAN: Likeable versus memorable, though.

FINNEY: Yes.

BERMAN: I mean, is it the deal now what Roger Ailes calls the orchestra pit moment.

FINNEY: Yes.

BERMAN: The only thing anyone remembers is if someone falls into an orchestra pit.

FINNEY: Yes. Right.

BERMAN: How important is getting a viral moment?

FINNEY: Well, it -- look, I'll tell you why the viral moment's really important, particularly given that, let's be honest, given that Donald Trump is turning himself in tomorrow, there's a very short time span in which people -- this is actually going to have any kind of impact, even shorter than normal in a regular news cycle. Those viral moments are important not just because they get paid over and over and what does the audience see, but for fundraising. And that's kind of the second big thing in these debates. If you can have a viral moment, your campaign is usually ready to go with a press release and ready to go with a fundraising appeal.

And it's going to be interesting, frankly, to see, after the debate, how much money each of these candidates raises because that will tell us a little bit about the amount of support they may have gained during the debate. So, be memorable.

But, again, I think you can do it in a way that is likeable and memorable. Tell a story about yourself or tell a story about, you know, a particular idea or issue. It doesn't have to all be about attracting Trump.

And the other thing that I will say is, you know, I do think for these candidates attacking Trump when he's not there, again, you have to be very careful given that you know that solid one-third of the Republican Party base, they're not going to like that.

[09:25:01]

So how do you -- if you're someone who's trying to walk that fine line, you've got to be firm. You can draw a contrast and say, that's how he does it, here's how I would do it. But I don't think you necessarily have to just punch in the nose when he's not there.

BERMAN: I didn't think I'd hear a Democratic strategist say lay off Trump at a Republican debate.

BOLDUAN: I know. I know because it's -- I don't know how well laying off Trump has worked for any of them thus far, but, you're right, a debate stage is slightly different.

Debate preparation. You have been part of much debate preparation in the past.

FINNEY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Would you suggest debate prep basketball given that Doug Burgum --

FINNEY: No.

BOLDUAN: Doug Burgum is now injured. He was -- went to the emergency room because he was injured playing a game of pickup basketball --

BERMAN: But didn't Obama - didn't Obama used to play.

BOLDUAN: HE always played basketball.

BERMAN: Obama played basketball. I know George W. Bush used to get a massage.

FINNEY: Yes, but, OK, but, I mean -

BOLDUAN: Hey, didn't someone -- didn't he get clocked once and it was like a - yes.

FINNEY: Yes. But here's the thing. You know, I don't know how much of a basketball player Doug Burgum is, but Obama, like, he had game. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, so for him to go out and play basketball, the chances of him getting hurt were a lot smaller.

No, I would not have my candidate out there playing basketball. You know, I was a college athlete and so I always, you know, say to candidates when I work with them, you know, you've got to think about -- that's game day. So, we've got to -- what are our game day rituals that, you know, whether you're - you're really fine-tuning. You're not coming up with new, big strategies. You're probably not doing anything where you could potentially hurt yourself. I mean, let's be honest, I don't know exactly how old Doug Burgum is, but he's not a young man. So, I might lay off the sports. But, you know, what -

BOLDUAN: Don't - don't go - Karen, don't you go there. Don't you even close to go there. Doug Burgum can play basketball whenever Doug Burgum wants to play basketball.

FINNEY: I know. I know. Well, you're - well. But, again, I think the point is, you know, this is the moment when you're really - you're refining. So, for example, if you're someone like Ron DeSantis and your strategy is stay cool when the attacks come, you're kind of rerunning that in your mind. If you've - if you've got an attack, you're going to try to -- or a viral moment you're going to try to go for, you know, you're just refining that in your mind.

And the teams behind the scenes are getting ready. Their war rooms are getting ready. But this is not a moment where you come up with some new game day strategy. It's really about you should have already done all the homework, all the study, all the prep so you are just ready to go when you walk on the stage.

BOLDUAN: Meditation. Maybe that's the sport that they should choose to do.

FINNEY: Right.

BERMAN: You could pull a muscle, though, if you don't sit the right way. Just saying.

All right, Karen Finney, thank you very much for all this helpful advice.

BOLDUAN: Thank you, Karen.

BERMAN: I'm sure the Republican candidates would thank you as well for the advice that you're giving.

FINNEY: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure.

BERMAN: Always great to see you.

BOLDUAN: Sara.

SIDNER: I'm seeing a basketball team, CNC (ph) basketball team. What do you think? Get Karen on the team?

BOLDUAN: I - all I'll say is, I got thrown out of a game in middle school because I was that aggressive.

SIDNER: You can be the ref. It's fine.

BERMAN: Least surprising thing I have ever heard.

SIDNER: Oh, man.

All right, now back to serious thoughts.

We are all eyes on Georgia. Special counsel Jack Smith's office is hard at work on the former president's federal classified documents case. Investigators now looking into whether two of Donald Trump's employees really told the whole truth while testifying.

Also, we understand that Kenneth Chesebro is turning himself in at this hour. You're looking at live pictures of the Fulton County Jail where he has just surrendered. We will be seeing what happens afterwards, whether he speaks.

Also, obviously, the mug shots will start coming out and more of Donald Trump's co-defendants will be turning themselves in today. We are watching for any developments.

Stay with us.

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