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Interview With Fmr. Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI); Republicans Set For First Presidential Debate; Giuliani Set to Surrender in Atlanta. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired August 23, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:17]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Two more people have surrendered, 13 more co- defendants to go, all accused of joining Donald Trump in trying to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia.

Trump's take? Saying he will proudly be arrested tomorrow.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Rudy Giuliani about to land in Atlanta to surrender at the Fulton County Jail. He has been spilling this morning, as we are getting new details on how we will pay his legal bills.

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: All right, all of those legal developments coming on the same day presidential candidates, the Republicans, at least, will take the stage for the very first primary debate, the action just hours away, with the lineup still in question after an unexpected injury on a basketball court.

I'm Sara Sidner with the impeccable John Berman and Kate Bolduan. That's all coming in right to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BERMAN: Any moment now, Rudy Giuliani's plane will touch down in Georgia. He is set to work out his bond agreement before heading to the Fulton County Jail to turn himself in.

Giuliani faces 13 charges, the most along with Donald Trump, for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia, his alleged efforts. He spoke to reporters in New York as he was leaving a little earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: They are destroying my right to counsel, my right to be a lawyer. They're destroying his right to counsel. It's not accidental that they have indicted all his lawyers. Never heard of that before in America.

Now they have indicted people in this case, I don't even know who they are. These are just regular people making a normal living. They're going to bankrupt them. They won't convict them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: As of this moment, six of the co-defendants have turned themselves in; 13 others, including Donald Trump, they have until Friday to surrender.

CNN's Paula Reid is outside the Fulton County courthouse, where, not too long from now, we could see Rudy Giuliani, or at least he touches down soon, Paula.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right.

Giuliani is expected to land any moment here in Georgia. And then we expect that his team will come here to the Fulton County courthouse to meet with the district attorney's office and negotiate a bond agreement, so the terms for Giuliani's release.

Once that is in place, then Giuliani can head to the Fulton County Sheriff's Office, where he will surrender. That's a process that includes fingerprints, even a mug shot. Now, it's interesting that he's doing both of these things on the same day, because most of the other defendants have spread these two things out, the bond agreement and the surrender, out over a few days.

But a source familiar tells me that Giuliani wants to get this all done before former President Trump comes to town tomorrow. Traveling with Giuliani today is his spokesman and his longtime friend Bernie Kerik. Now, he's the former New York police commissioner. He also had his own criminal trial, where he was convicted.

He was ultimately pardoned by former President Trump, but he's been helping Giuliani sort of through this process and try to help him find a lawyer. Kerik is not an attorney. Now, Giuliani has had difficulty finding a lawyer to represent him.

Many of the people who have previously worked with him, he owes them money. Some of them, he owes over a million dollars to. And it has been difficult for him to find a new lawyer willing to represent him, though we're told that he does have someone with a Georgia law license who can at least sign the bond agreement. That's all he needs for today.

It's unclear if that person, though, is going to be willing to represent him through an entire trial. Now, I will also note that Bernie Kerik is also an unindicted co-conspirator in this case, and some of the bond agreements have restrictions on the extent to which you can talk to other people involved in the case.

So, we will be watching those restrictions on Giuliani really carefully. But he could potentially have more money flowing into his coffers, helping him with his legal debt, maybe helping them find a Georgia attorney. Former President Trump is set to headline a fund- raiser for Giuliani in the coming weeks.

BERMAN: And, Paula, as for Donald Trump himself, we're getting some new details, I understand, about his plans to surrender in prime time?

REID: Pretty much. Where else would you surrender, John?

He -- his lawyers came earlier this week to negotiate his bond. So that's already in place. So he chose to surrender tomorrow. And we expect him to come to Georgia in the evening to go through that process.

Now, that of course, would be after rush hour traffic, which you know is really bad here in Atlanta. But, as of now, the district attorney has been adamant that all defendants will be treated the same. So, as of now, we expect his surrender process will likely involve fingerprints and possibly even a mug shot.

And that's significant because, at the federal level, his federal prosecutions and his Manhattan case as well, they didn't do a mug shot because they argue that law enforcement uses mug shots to identify people when they go on the lam.

[11:05:10]

Well, former President Trump is one of the most famous people in the world. And they didn't opt to do the mug shot there. But here, as of now, it does appear they will likely do that mug shot. And, of course, those are released. We have only seen two of them so far. But those would be released to the public, I mean, a truly extraordinary moment in American history, John.

BERMAN: You can say that again.

All right, Paula Reid, thanks so much for being there. We will talk to you again soon -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: And, right now, there are at least two co-defendants in Georgia who are hoping to skip this step of being booked and processed, former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark.

Both are also asking a judge to move their state case to federal court and, in the process, kind of let them off the hook for facing arrest this week.

CNN's Jessica Schneider, she has more on this one for us. She joins us now.

So, Jessica, what are they asking for here?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, they're really banking on these motions to move their cases to federal court.

And in the short term anyway, that would be so they could avoid arrest before the noon deadline Friday that was set by the Fulton County DA. So it's both Mark Meadows and Jeffrey Clark. Jeffrey Clark was a Justice Department official.

And they have argued that their status as federal officers when their alleged conduct occurred that forms the basis of this indictment in Fulton County, they say that it -- that because they were federal officers, it requires their cases to be heard by federal and not state court. And the advantages, in their view, would be that they would be taking

it to a higher-level court with different judges, also a different jury pool that would actually draw from the suburbs of Atlanta, rather than just the city of Atlanta. And the suburbs, maybe those jury members might be more sympathetic to Trump and his allies. At least, that's the thought.

So the DA here, Fani Willis, she has until noon today to respond to these motions made by Mark Meadows and Jeffrey Clark. A hearing in the case on this issue of whether to remove it to federal court, it's been scheduled for Monday. But because the deadline for Mark Meadows and Clark to turn themselves in, Kate, is Friday at noon, a court in this case, they could actually rule on parts of this.

They could issue an order in the next day or so that could help Meadows and Clark avoid arrest. So this is all unswirling at a different court, in federal court. While these charges still remain in state court, they're trying to get them removed.

So we will see probably in the next less than two days what happens here -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right. Thanks for laying it out, Jessica. It's good to see you -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right, with us now is CNN anchor and chief legal analyst Laura Coates.

Laura, thank you so much for being here with us. I know you have a late show to do tonight.

(LAUGHTER)

SIDNER: I do want to ask you about...

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Why? What do you mean, Sara? Is there big news?

SIDNER: Apparently, there's something going on, some debate that's happening, which I'm sure you will be a part of, the analysis, of course.

I want to ask you about these cases, and this -- in particular, the case in Georgia, Mark Meadows being joined by at least one other defendant asking the federal courts for an emergency order to move his case out of Georgia. What do you see happening here?

COATES: Well, Jessica is so right about the factors involved in trying to get something removed.

And, by the way, it's not a slam dunk to simply say, you know what, I prefer federal court,I don't want the state court level, it's just easier for my schedule and my life. No, you have to meet some criteria to do so.

One of it has to be that you're going to tell the court, look, what I was doing was under the color of my office. This is part of my job description here. I was just doing that. You can't criminally indict me for doing what was required of my job.

But, of course, the response to that is, well, if this goes beyond your job, or at all not even a part of it, because elections are the purview of the states, not the federal government, please explain to us how a chief of staff is going to be involved in that particular process, that could fail.

Second issue and criteria is whether you have a viable federal defense to what you're talking about. And, if you don't, then it's not likely to be removed. But the demographic nation -- notion of having jurors and the pool maybe, in your mind, more favorable is part of the consideration for likely Mark Meadows.

But even if it's removed to the federal court, it doesn't automatically go to a federal charge now. It's still a state charge against the defendant. If convicted, it would be a state level conviction, which means not pardonable.

SIDNER: Yes, that's really interesting and an important point there.

I do want to ask you. Rudy Giuliani is on his way, as we understand it, to Atlanta to turn himself in. And he had a whole lot to say today, mostly, basically just going on the attack against everyone and everything, saying that this is all a basically a conspiracy to take away his rights.

Should he be talking?

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: Oh, gosh, is that the question here?

SIDNER: That's the question.

COATES: Because the answer is no. He has right to remain silent and probably stood for so many reasons, as in all the defendants in this very notion.

[11:10:06]

But it's a very great question. I always am tongue in cheek for a moment for you.

Because the notion, should you be talking, should you be articulating all of these things in the court of public opinion, when you know full well what you say can be used against you and, by the way, can be used to compare and contrast what other statements you have made? Are they consistent? Have there been others to corroborate what you have said or to fatally undermine it?

Is anything you're saying now going to be different in the future? But, as we reported, just yesterday, he had had some trouble getting counsel. And part of that reason might be financial. Another part of it might be defense attorneys, while everybody

certainly has a presumption of innocence, at times, you might consider the juice not to be worth the squeeze.

And so if you do not have a viable defense, if you are entangled in some way with another co-defendant, such that you could not realistically make a separate argument or distance yourself from that person, then you might be undermining your own ability to have and mount a defense.

And so when you think about whether he's talking or not, it might be the attempts of an otherwise desperate person who's hoping to have a chance to argue in the court of public opinion, to curry favor in one direction, or to extend a 10-foot pole in another.

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: At the end of the day, though, we're not talking about a layman. We're talking about Rudy Giuliani.

This is a seasoned prosecutor, who knows RICO cases very well, made a lot of his fame off of them. So, if anyone should know whether he should stop talking, it should be Rudy Giuliani. And yet here we are.

SIDNER: Here we are.

He's not the only attorney talking. There are a heck of a lot of attorneys -- that has to be said -- who are charged in this case. And no shade to attorneys, but I hear they can be the worst kind of defendants.

I want to ask you about John Eastman.

(LAUGHTER)

SIDNER: You know better than I do, but that's what I hear.

John...

COATES: I mean, doctors are horrible patients, right?

SIDNER: Right. Exactly.

COATES: It's not just us. Doctors are horrible patients. So there you go.

(LAUGHTER)

SIDNER: To be fair.

But John Eastman has also said -- come out and spoken. We -- actually, I'm going to hold on one second here, because we have got a little bit of news for you. Giuliani's plane -- it's the plane that we believe Giuliani is in as he has flown up from New York into Atlanta, landed there, going along the strip there. He will have to, of course, do the whole thing, get off the plane, get in the car and go down to the jail. But that is believed to be Giuliani landing there in Atlanta as he prepares to negotiate bond and then surrender in Fulton County at the jail that we have been watching where at least four or five other people have now already surrendered.

This is a big moment, in that everyone knows Giuliani. Not everyone knows all of these other defendants. But he is a very well-known former mayor of New York, someone who is very versed in how these things are supposed to happen, although Georgia is a little different.

But once he gets done with all this, Laura, he is going to be booked, and he's going to have bond, and there will be a mug shot of him. According to the sheriff, everyone will be treated the same. When you consider what has happened with Rudy Giuliani, as you mentioned those RICO charges, tell us about these moments that we're watching, as he lands there in the plane we think that he has taken from New York to Georgia, about his fall, if you will, putting aside that we know that you are innocent until proven guilty.

COATES: Yes.

Well, we did a wonderful special over the weekend, on Sunday, I believe, talking about that fall for Rudy Giuliani, once known as America's mayor. But he was also the top prosecutor in New York. And he was somebody to use the RICO statute, which, of course, he has now been charged under as part of this, to go against crime bosses and mafia and the mob family,knowing about the criminal enterprise.

It's actually a pattern and a blueprint that now other prosecutors follow, including one Fani Willis out of Fulton County as the DA.

But taking a step back, the fact that he has not perhaps already negotiated bond terms is very significant here, Sara, because the reason you're hearing about bond agreements in advance for people like John Eastman, for people like Sidney Powell, for people like Donald Trump, is because in Fulton County, I believe, if you do not otherwise have it pre-negotiated, then you're going to have a lengthier process waiting for a judge to sign off on your bond terms, to go through the rigmarole, as they say, of conditions of release, to have you sitting there longer, like you would for any other defendant.

Now, every defendant, again, has the opportunity, not just this Fulton County nine -- 19, to pre-negotiate terms of it. You want to, in the interest of court expedience and efficiency, have the opportunity to do so.

The fact that he has not yet done so means that he now enters a kind of general population of those who might have court-appointed attorneys, who might not have had the opportunity to negotiate in advance, and now are in a line of people.

[11:15:11]

So I expect there to be some delays here in that. But it also might speak to the fact that, for the very reasons that you are intimating, that this is a former mayor, former prosecutor, who knows RICO, who knows the law quite well, knows federal law quite well, in spite of what we have been seeing, perhaps he feels he is best positioned to actually negotiate the terms of what he would like to do.

And are we -- that -- may be getting a preview of a pro se litigant here in Rudy Giuliani, in the sense of somebody who's able to represent themselves? Now, most defendants would be, well, quite frankly counseled against representing themselves in any court proceeding, let alone negotiations.

SIDNER: Yes.

COATES: But is that where we are if he is landing and negotiating this now? He has to now have a judge sign off on it. He gets to the back of the line.

And, as we heard from Fani Willis yesterday, there's no extensions being granted.

SIDNER: Right.

COATES: Noon Friday is the deadline.

SIDNER: Well, it's interesting, the thought of him basically trying to defend himself in this part of the case, because we know that he's having really major money problems, so we will have to see what happens there.

Laura Coates, stay close. Stay with us.

And, again, we're watching that plane as it taxis there in Chamblee, Georgia, as we believe Rudy Giuliani is on that plane headed potentially to court and then to be booked into jail.

I want to go now to Paula Reid, who is outside of the court.

Do you have any further information as to whether or not Rudy Giuliani is headed to court first, or is going to end up sort of waiting at the jail for the court to make some decisions here?

REID: Well, down here in Fulton County, the way it works is, first, you need to negotiate your bond.

And with this particular case, the district attorney's office has asked all of the legal teams to come and meet with her in person. That extended to the former president's legal team that had to travel here on Monday, meet with the district attorney's office in person to negotiate that bond.

That's exactly what's going to happen with Rudy Giuliani. His team is scheduled to meet with the district attorney midday today here at the Fulton County Courthouse. It's unclear if Rudy Giuliani is going to attend that meeting.

But then, after they get the bond agreement in place, then he can go to the Fulton County Sheriff's Office and surrender. Now, most of the other defendants have done this over the course of a few days, right? They have their lawyers do the bond agreement, they come in a day or two later to surrender.

Rudy Giuliani wants to do all of this in one day. A source tells me that he is keen to get out of Georgia before former President Trump comes to town tomorrow. Now, I want to note that those photos of him arriving, that is not Hartsfield-Jackson Airport, OK?

He flew in here private. And this is a man who currently has seven figures in unpaid legal debts. And he has been using -- Bernie Kerik, the former New York police commissioner has volunteered to help him. He's an unindicted co-conspirator in this case, but also a longtime friend of Giuliani's, and has been helping him try to find a lawyer to represent him in this case, despite his money woes.

So it's notable that somewhere he got the money to be able to fly here to Georgia today private. That is significant for someone who is in such debt and is unable to pay so many of their legal bills. At this point, we believe he has at least one lawyer with a Georgia license who will help him through this bond agreement today.

There's also at least two other lawyers we believe traveling with him. But it's unclear if these people have agreed to actually represent him in this full case, or if they're just willing to help over the course of these few days, as Bernie Kerik is as well. Kerik is not a lawyer, but his extensive law enforcement experience, not only as a police commissioner, but also as the defendant, and he is helping Rudy Giuliani as he gets through this initial stage.

And, again, at this point, it is unclear if any of the lawyers he has today will be representing him throughout this case in Fulton County.

SIDNER: It is really interesting, those developments, hearing from Laura Coates that he may try to represent himself. Of course, you have to have a Georgia attorney at least alongside you.

And your comments about how much he owes, and the fact that he has taken a private plane, clearly landing at a different airport, not Atlanta Hartsfield. We are watching this.

I just want to mention that, if you see the plane in the background there, you see the stairs are down. So, clearly, we're going to be seeing people start coming off that plane. We do believe that Rudy Giuliani is on that plane.

Paula Reid, thank you so much to you and Laura Coates as well -- now over to you, John.

BERMAN: All right, we will continue to watch that plane. We will see if we can notice Rudy Giuliani's legs at least getting off the plane and walking to that SUV to take him to the courthouse, we believe, to negotiate his bond deal.

We will bring you the latest from Fulton County, including the Fulton County Jail. Also, last-minute preparations for the first Republican debate. We're

going to speak with someone who's been on that stage many times and is advising candidates not to listen to their consultants.

[11:20:00]

And some advice that might not be that welcome -- why a growing number of experts are now encouraging people, some, at least, to mask up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right, moments ago, this was Rudy Giuliani's plane landing in Atlanta. He is on his way at this moment, we believe, to the Fulton County Courthouse, where he will negotiate the terms of his bond agreement.

[11:25:00]

Then he will report to the Fulton County Jail and surrender there. The former mayor of New York City will surrender. We believe he will be fingerprinted,have his mug shot taken. This is all as part of the Georgia case, the case against 19 people with charges that they allegedly tried to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia.

We expect Donald Trump to surrender tomorrow night in prime time. So, that's the legal ring.

While this is happening, the first Republican presidential debate is tonight in Milwaukee. Of course, Donald Trump will not be there. There will be eight candidates on that stage, assuming that North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, who got injured in a basketball game, is OK enough to take that stage.

Nevertheless, the debate will take place.

With us now from Milwaukee is former Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker.

Governor Walker, it's great to see you.

This must feel like having all your friends over to play at your House in Wisconsin.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Look, you have been on the presidential debate stage.

FMR. GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI): It does. And, sometimes, some of my friends get injured playing.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Well, only if you elbow them while you're playing in one-on- one.

(LAUGHTER)

WALKER: Yes, exactly.

BERMAN: Listen, you have been on the debate stage many times in the presidential ring.

What warning do you have for those candidates as they take that stage? What did you learn?

WALKER: Yes, the biggest thing I think I learned from having been at that first debate, even a month later at that debate CNN did it at the Lincoln -- at the Reagan Library, was that forget about the consultants, forget about the D.C. insiders, forget about the pundits.

Be as bold as you were to get you there in the first place. If you're a governor, if you're a senator, you're a businessperson, go out and do the things that got you on this platform. Be as bold or bolder than you have ever been before. My mistake was listening to consultants, who told me to run on my record. That's not enough.

You have got to capture the attention of those primary voters, not only here inside the Fiserv Forum, but the millions more who will be watching at home.

BERMAN: So don't listen to your consultants who tell you to run on your record.

Is there a candidate right now who sort of you have the sense is mirroring that mistake that you feel you made? And I ask that because Governor DeSantis is a Republican governor of a state, seen by many in the Republican Party to be successful.

WALKER: Yes.

BERMAN: You were seeing in the Republican Party as a successful governor. Is he making some of the mistakes you think you made?

WALKER: I think so. And I think he can correct a fair amount of that tonight.

He's got a big, bold record. A lot of people look at what happened in Florida, look at his reelection, see a lot of positives there. But the reminder, as a governor to governor, is, you're not running for election to be the nation's governor, you're running to be president. So, you have got to escalate things.

You got to raise it to a whole new standard. You have got to talk about the -- not just the things that you did, but the things you're going to do going forward.

I think he can have that kind of breakthrough moment. I think he has to have that breakthrough moment if he's going to continue to be viewed as the most viable alternative to President Trump.

BERMAN: Has to?

WALKER: I think he has to. I think it's a make-or-break in that regard. I think it's not enough just to have a competent debate. Remember,

this is not a head-to-head. Many of us have gone head to head with our general election opponents. And, typically, there, you just try not to stumble, you have a good debate, your solid, you make a connection, you make no mistakes.

When it comes to a multifield debate like tonight, you're competing with time with seven other candidates. You can't afford not to capture people's attention early on. That means he's got to be bold, he's got to be decisive and probably most importantly, he's got to have some passion.

I would expect, for example, another friend of mine, former Governor Chris Christie, to come out swinging, not just at President Trump, but he very well likely will go after DeSantis. That will be a moment for him. But I think, more importantly, the public, the voters, in the primary, at least, will be watching see how Ron DeSantis responds.

I would expect he's going to push back, and that could help.

BERMAN: Do you think it's a good idea for Christine to come out swinging against both Trump and DeSantis?

WALKER: I think, right now, he's got no other shot. If you're not polling -- and all these folks are still an incredible long shot when you look at the kind of margin that President Trump has.

A little bit of that's inflated, obviously, by these indictments in a way that, if you're Republican voter, even if you're not necessarily 100 percent behind Trump for reelection or even as the nominee, you feel like it's a member of the family being attacked. And so there's going to be a little escalation because of that, even more in the coming days.

But to break through, one or more of the candidates on the stage tonight has to make a compelling case. I think, for Christie, that's who he is. He's got to be who he is. He's an attack dog. He goes after people. He's got to have a shot.

I think the key is, whether it's DeSantis, whether it's Vivek Ramaswamy, or whether it's any of the other candidates out there, they have to respond and be defensive -- not just defensive, but then bold and transfer that, say, I'm willing to fight, not just to defend my record, but I'm going to fight for the American voter.

BERMAN: You think Trump is beatable?

WALKER: I think, right now, it's a -- very, very much a long shot.

Obviously, things can change dramatically between now and early in 2024, when these primaries and caucuses really kick off. But, if I was a betting man -- I'm not -- but I would bet that Donald Trump will be the nominee.

[11:30:00]