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Wagner Leader Listed Among Passengers in Plane Crash; Suspect Opens Fires on Law Enforcement in Pittsburgh; Rudy Giuliani in Atlanta to Surrender. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 23, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:59]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Two cities and two stories with a impact on politics and our democracy.

In Atlanta, all eyes are on the Fulton County Jail, where, sometime today, Rudy Giuliani, the guy once called America's mayor, is expected to surrender, as we are learning more about former President Trump's own plans to turn himself in.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And, in Milwaukee, GOP hopefuls for the presidential nomination face off in the first debate of the 2024 campaign, each one with their own goals, but one goal that may be out of reach, winning the nomination, as Trump maintains a double-digit lead, uses that as an excuse to skip the debate, among other things.

We are following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Intense legal battles playing out in Atlanta ahead of tonight's first Republican primary battle in Milwaukee.

Donald Trump is the focus of both. He is the clear GOP front-runner. But he won't be at that debate alongside his rivals. Instead, he is hunkered down in New Jersey on the eve of his surrender on RICO charges in Georgia. So far, six of the former president's co- defendants have turned themselves in at the Fulton County Jail, part of that sweeping indictment on 2020 election interference in Georgia.

And, today, one of the architects of the fake electors plot, Kenneth Chesebro, was booked. And Rudy Giuliani, the central figure in Trump's barrage of failed post-election lawsuits, is in Atlanta now, and he could be next.

CNN's Paula Reid is outside of the courthouse for us.

Paula, it's a little bit different than the other defendants so far. Giuliani is actually planning to work out his bond terms and surrender all in one day.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brianna.

A source tells me he wants to get this all done today before former President Trump comes to town tomorrow. Now, right now, we have learned that Giuliani is huddled with his team ahead of their scheduled meeting with the district attorney's office.

Now, that meeting will happen in the courthouse right behind me, and they will work to hash out the terms of his release. Once that bond agreement is in place, then Giuliani can go to the Fulton County Sheriff's Office to surrender.

And it's really remarkable, Brianna, to think about that process, which will involve fingerprinting and even a mug shot, considering the fact that Rudy Giuliani was at a time one of the most powerful law enforcement officials in this country, when he was serving, of course, as the U.S. attorney in New York, prosecuting many RICO cases.

Now he is a criminal defendant in a RICO case down here in Georgia. Now, it's unclear if he has an attorney who's going to help him throughout this case. All he needs today is just someone with a Georgia license who can sign that bond agreement. We're told he has secured that person.

But we know, because of his significant legal debt, he owes millions of dollars in legal fees to various legal entities that have helped him through his other legal problems. So, as of right now, Brianna, other lawyers who have worked with him, they're not willing to help him right now until they get paid.

And he's had trouble retaining a new attorney. But I also want to point out something, Brianna. Today, when he came to Georgia, he didn't fly into he didn't fly into Hartsfield-Jackson. He didn't take Delta and ride the train from the gate to baggage claim. He flew private. He came in on a private jet.

And it is unclear where he got the money to do that, unclear if it's his money or if someone provided that service for him, because just last week, his lawyers were in court claiming that he didn't have money to pay his legal bills.

And that has also been an issue helping him get processed in this case, trying to find a lawyer who will help him. So, that's something we're definitely continuing to dig into today. Who has been willing to help him at least fly private down here to Georgia?

KEILAR: Yes, that's certainly not cheap.

Do you have any more insight into how the process with the former president is going to go tomorrow?

[13:05:00]

REID: Of course, he is truly unlike any of the other defendants.

Not only is he a former president. He has Secret Service protection. So, logistically, it is just inherently a little more complicated for him. His lawyers were, of course, down here in Fulton County earlier this week, Brianna, to hash out the terms of his bond agreement. That is in place. So, now he will just go through the surrender

process. And our colleagues Kristen Holmes and Alayna Treene, we have learned that he's going to surrender in the evening. That is after rush hour traffic here in Atlanta. Anyone who's tried to drive down here in Atlanta traffic knows it's quite difficult to get around.

So, to accommodate some of the logistics, this will happen later tomorrow. He will travel here from Bedminster, New Jersey. He is expected to surrender in the evening. And it's also expected, we're told, to be a pretty quick trip. It's not going to be an overnight.

But watching that process, Brianna, we expect, because the district attorney has said all of the defendants in this case will be handled just like anyone else. That would mean fingerprints and a mug shot. In the other three criminal cases that he has faced, they have opted not to do a mug shot. As of now, we expect that he will have a mug shot taken.

Those so far have been released publicly. But, again, that's our expectation. But that's something we're really watching, because this would be the first time that he would have a mug shot. Even though this is his fourth indictment, this would be the first time we see a photo like that of the former president, not only the first time in his legal issues, but the first time in the history of the United States.

KEILAR: Yes, it will be extraordinary.

Paula Reid live for us in Fulton County, thank you so much.

And let's take you now across town to the Fulton County Jail, where CNN's Zachary Cohen is.

Zach, more surrenders today, more arrest reports. Walk us through the latest details that you're getting.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Brianna, there's been a bit of a revolving door of Trump's co-defendants here at the Fulton County Jail so far today.

And it started in the predawn hours of the morning, when two co- defendants, Cathy Latham and David Shafer, who's the former Republican Party chairman in Georgia, turned themselves in just before 3:00 a.m. That was followed by two lawyers who turned themselves in just in the last few hours, Ray Smith, who is a local Georgia lawyer for the Trump campaign, and then also, Ken Chesebro.

Ken Chesebro has been sort of described by the January 6 Committee and in this indictment from Fani Willis as the architect of the fake electors scheme. We obviously know that that happened in seven states, including Georgia, and it was a core part of this broader effort to overturn the election.

Now, we expect a steady stream of more of these defendants to show up and turn themselves in at the Fulton County Jail throughout the day, ahead of Trump's expected arrival tomorrow. Obviously, Rudy Giuliani is the biggest name that we know of and anticipate showing up here today.

But it's clear that these defendants are trying to surrender before the former president arrives in Atlanta and is expected to turn himself in.

KEILAR: All right, we will be looking for that.

Zach Cohen, thank you so much for the latest there from the Fulton County Jail -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: All right, with me now to discuss, CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen, who served as special counsel for the House Judiciary Committee during former President Trump's first impeachment trial.

Norm, good to have you.

So, Giuliani is making an argument that we heard from John Eastman yesterday, similar. I want to play his defense and get your reaction. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: They are destroying my right to counsel, my right to be a lawyer. They're destroying his right to counsel. It's not accidental that they have indicted all his lawyers. Never heard of that before in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I believe John Eastman's phrase was zealous advocacy here.

In the simplest terms, of course, a lawyer cannot recommend illegal action to a client. What's the standard of determining what legal advice is unacceptable? When does bad lawyering, in effect, become illegal or criminal?

NORMAN EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Jim, because of the extraordinary power that lawyers have in our system, there are boundaries on how far you can go.

So it crosses a line if the advice that you're giving to a client is so nakedly illegal, so far beyond the pale that you actually become a co-conspirator. And that is what Fani Willis is alleging here. And she's doing that with a lot of legal justification.

Why? We had a federal judge in an earlier fight involving another lawyer, John Eastman, and Trump say that this alleged attempted overthrow of the 2020 election was a coup in search of a legal theory. And the allegation that Fani Willis is making -- and it hits Giuliani hardest of all after Trump -- the allegation that she's making is that that line from legitimate legal advice, maybe aggressive legal advice, to recommending criminality, that that was crossed by Giuliani and the other lawyers.

And that's why you're seeing so many lawyers who are a part of this case. [13:10:02]

SCIUTTO: Understood.

OK, another question is the role of Mark Meadows in all this. Of course, it was the chief of staff to Trump and was in these meetings. He was on the call, for instance, the call to Georgia state election officials by Trump asking to find votes sufficient to overturn the result here.

Let me play his comment -- rather, Marc Short's comment, worked for Vice -- Pence -- Vice President Pence -- on Mark Meadows last night. I want to get your thoughts. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I think it's fair to say that mark was a ringleader of much of the events that happened around January 6.

He was somebody who was -- the president sought to find additional attorneys who gave advice different than White House counsel, and it was very central to the events that happened on that day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He goes on to question the fact that Meadows, not named in the federal indictment by the special counsel, named here.

We know that Meadows has walked something of a -- or attempted a balancing act between what he provides, what he does not provide. Does that give you an indication that he might be cooperating with the special counsel's federal case?

EISEN: There are indications that Meadows is -- must be cooperating to some extent with the federal case, Jim, because you will remember, in that case, Trump is charged.

Unlike Fani Willis, special counsel Jack Smith did a narrow, laser- like focus, because he wants to get to trial fast.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

EISEN: We will be covering that battle next week. He wants to get to trial at the beginning of 2024. Fani Willis has a slightly different schedule.

So Meadows was not really mentioned very much. He wasn't one of the six unindicted co-conspirators in the Jack Smith case.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

EISEN: Here, he is front and center. He's the fourth defendant named in the complaint, together with Eastman and Giuliani, who we have talked about, and Trump himself.

And what Marc Short said seems to be backed by the public record, Jim. We have the recording of that January 3 call...

SCIUTTO: Yes.

EISEN: ... after the election was done, counted, recounted, signed, sealed, delivered, Trump saying, with Meadows on the call facilitating, just find 11,780 votes.

That's not how it works in the U.S.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's not based on someone's recollection of those events. We have heard the tape many times.

Norm Eisen, thanks so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, so we are following some breaking news out of Pittsburgh.

Police say that they are engaged in an extremely active situation -- that's what they're calling it -- with continued shots. Pardon me, continued -- it's a situation with shots that are continuing to be fired, all of this after an attempted eviction.

I want to bring in CNN's Brynn Gingras, who is following the story.

Brynn, tell us what more you're learning.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna, we have been tracking this.

And what we have learned is some of what you just said there, that the Allegheny Sheriff's Department's deputies were serving an eviction notice to a resident who lives in the Garfield section of Pittsburgh, when that escalated into basically a shoot-out with those deputies.

I want you to hear some of those shots being fired in some of the affiliate video that we have gotten into our NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNSHOTS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: You could hear that rapid succession of gunfire in that neighborhood, of course, alarming that entire neighborhood.

And a huge police presence still remains there. We actually have learned from an affiliate that there was a neighbor of that house where that eviction notice was being served who was working in their work-from-home office and tried to rush down to their basement as the gunfire was actually going into their own home.

Authorities are actually telling residents in that area to stay at home, remain in place, and to call 911, so they could actually go to them and evacuate them safely. Now, we did learn from our affiliates, who are there on the scene that the gunfire has subsided a bit. So it does seem like this situation is tamping down just a bit, but I

can tell you that, again, a huge law enforcement presence from local, state and federal authorities there on the scene. So we're continuing to follow of this.

In the meantime, Brianna, there are hospitals in that area that have heightened their security while this remains an active situation -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, pretty dramatic moments. And we will continue to monitor that with you.

Brynn Gingras for us, thank you so much for the latest there -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, as the legal drama continues to unfold in Georgia, eight Republican candidates are getting in their last-minute preparations for tonight's Republican debate. Or it might it be seven candidates? We will explain.

Plus, we're learning the identities of more fire victims on Maui, just as the number of people who are unaccounted for is, sadly, going up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:19:06]

KEILAR: And we have some breaking news out of Fulton County, Georgia.

I want to go to CNN's Paula Reid, who is outside of the courthouse monitoring the very latest for us.

Paula, what can you tell us?

REID: Well, Brianna, Giuliani's legal team just arrived here at the Fulton County Courthouse.

As we have reported, they are scheduled to meet with the district attorney to hash out the terms of Giuliani's release as these charges are pending. Now, as of right now, he has a Georgia-based attorney, Brian Tevis, who has just arrived here to work out these details.

He needs to have a Georgia-based attorney to sign the bond agreement. And I asked Mr. Tevis -- we chased him into the building -- if he is going to represent Giuliani throughout this case, because we know Giuliani has had a difficult time retaining lawyers.

Tevis told me that it remains to be seen if he will be Giuliani's trial counsel. Now, we also asked if he was getting paid. He did not respond to my question about whether he is actually getting paid.

[13:20:03]

So, right now, Brianna, it's unclear if Mr. Tevis will represent Giuliani beyond just today. Giuliani, again, has millions of dollars in legal debt that remains unpaid. Even lawyers who have worked with him for forever, for as long as I have known him, are no longer working with him right now as they wait to get paid for their services.

Last week, a lawyer for Giuliani said that they don't expect him to get any more help with his legal bills. But we do know that former President Trump will be hosting a fund-raiser for him in a couple of weeks, so more money coming in.

It's possible Mr. Tevis could wind up representing him. But they're here. They're going to go inside, negotiate this bond agreement, and then, if they can get that squared away with the district attorney, then Mr. Giuliani will surrender to the Fulton County Sheriff's office.

Mr. Giuliani did not appear to be here. He did not arrive with his attorney. We did not expect him to attend this meeting. But he will be, of course, the one who will have to show up later today or tomorrow at the Fulton County Sheriff's Office.

But, Brianna, a source tells me Giuliani is keen to get all of this squared away today, so he can leave town ahead of former President Trump's arrival tomorrow.

KEILAR: Yes, as you mentioned, he is very much in debt because of legal bills. And yet he still came in on a private jet.

Who paid for it? We don't know. Still very interesting there.

Paula with the very latest there from Fulton County, we do appreciate it -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: We do have this breaking news just into CNN.

That is the Wagner mercenary group chief, Yevgeny Prigozhin, has been listed among passengers on board a plane that crashed just north of Moscow, this according to Russian state media. You may remember that Prigozhin and his Wagner Group led an attempted mutiny coup against the Russian president two months ago to the day on June 23.

He made his way close to Moscow before turning around, and now, two months later, CNN is reporting that the chief listed among those on the passengers of this plane that crashed north of Moscow.

Our Fred Pleitgen covers Russia extensively for us. He joins us now from Berlin.

Fred, I don't need to say that this is shocking news. It comes just two months after this attempted coup. Prigozhin had enormous power in inside Russia as head of the Wagner military group. Tell me what you're hearing about this and the significance.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Jim.

And, obviously, we are still in the very early stages of this, but you're absolutely right. This could be potentially huge news, with Yevgeny Prigozhin on that passenger list. We are hearing some of this from Russian state media, some of it also

from the Russian Federal Aviation Administration. I want to read you some of what Russian media is quoting from the federal Russian Aviation Administration.

They're quoted saying -- quote -- "An investigation has been launched into the crash of the Embraer Air aircraft, which occurred tonight in the Tver region." That's a region that's sort of north of Moscow, south of St. Petersburg.

We, of course, know that Yevgeny Prigozhin has essentially his headquarters in St. Petersburg, even though large parts of his organization have moved to Belarus in the Tver region. "According to the list of passengers, among them is the surname of Yevgeny Prigozhin," it says there.

We're also hearing that possibly 10 people in total were on board that aircraft, that that aircraft is an Embraer Air 160, an aircraft like that owned by Yevgeny Prigozhin's company, by Yevgeny Prigozhin himself. So, possibly, this could be very big news, as the Russians are treating this very much as possibly Yevgeny Prigozhin being on that aircraft left, obviously, right now, his whereabouts very much unknown.

One of the things that's really interesting about this is that we do know that Yevgeny Prigozhin was traveling abroad, Jim. We do know that he was in Africa at least a couple of days ago.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PLEITGEN: There was a video that he released saying that his forces, his Wagner forces, were now working. In Africa, that it was very hot there. But he was on the ground there as well, claiming that those forces were fighting against ISIS.

Of course, as you very correctly stated, Yevgeny Prigozhin started that mutiny on June 24, about two months ago, which failed, which was then called back, obviously, a big threat to Vladimir Putin. And there were many people who were wondering about Yevgeny Prigozhin's safety and whether or not there could be payback from Vladimir Putin or from the Russian Security Services.

Again, still very much unclear what exactly is going on, what exactly happened there, but, certainly, this potentially could be very, very big news coming out of Russia, Jim.

SCIUTTO: That's right. You mentioned that video from two days ago. I believe we were playing just a clip of it, we could play it again, in which he spoke about Wagner's exploits in Africa as making, in his words, Africa free year.

We should note, Prigozhin's Wagner Group has operated as really a private military for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, Prigozhin close to the Russian president. He was known for a time as Putin's chef, although his role much greater than that.

[13:25:02]

He also played a role in the 2016 Russian interference in the U.S. election, leading the group that helped interfere and spread false news here in the U.S.

And, to Fred's point, you cannot mention today's events, as Russian state media reporting that he was on the list of passengers of this plane that went down, you cannot mention those events without mentioning events from two months ago, when Prigozhin was the man who unsuccessfully led a coup against the Russian president, Vladimir Putin.

KEILAR: Yes, and I think one of the big questions, obviously, at that time was, what is the fate going to be of Yevgeny Prigozhin?

And so there are going to be a lot of questions about, obviously, what has happened here...

SCIUTTO: Absolutely.

KEILAR: ... and about certainly how this is going to maybe affect the dynamics of a war that we are seeing fought in Ukraine by Russia.

I do want to bring in Nick Paton Walsh. He is there in Ukraine for us..

Nick, this is quite a bombshell that we are learning that Yevgeny Prigozhin listed among these passengers on board this plane that has crashed north of Moscow.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's important to remind people, though, that him being on the list of passengers doesn't automatically equate to him having been on that plane.

It does appear from the images we're seeing and the reports we're hearing from Russian state media that those on board have indeed perished. Remember, Russian state media is not Yevgeny Prigozhin's friend, frankly, at the moment. He's the man who led that unsuccessful coup and then disappeared for a number of days.

And it's fair to say he's a man who's good at hiding his whereabouts. The fact he's listed on this very rare aircraft -- you don't see many of them flying around, frankly, Russia, at all -- doesn't immediately suggest that he had to have been on the aircraft, though we are dealing with an extraordinary moment, potentially, which is the question that so many had asked.

How does this man, Yevgeny Prigozhin, who appeared to have led that coup, and then changed his mind radically on the way to Moscow, how did he stay alive this long? Those who've even half upset Vladimir Putin as much in the past have met a grisly end, fallen from windows, some critics, some poisoned as well.

Prigozhin essentially led an armed rebellion against the Kremlin head, yet lived and, as you said, Jim, was seen in Africa a matter of days ago. And so many Kremlin watchers were wondering, how precisely did he manage to survive? Was a deal cut? We know of the public deal arranged by a man who Putin had scorn for, frankly, the president of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko, that essentially appeared to have turned Wagner's troops around on the way to Moscow.

But what happened to Prigozhin next was going to be an exceptionally difficult question to answer. We have heard from -- today from Russian officials the suggestion that one of the Russian generals who were thought to have been close to the Wagner head, Prigozhin, have suddenly been removed quietly from their post after suggestions they have been under house arrest for some time, General Surovikin.

And so this fate potentially comes at a similar time as that. But it's important to point out to people we know little at this time. This is a moment, potentially, where people might suggest that Yevgeny Prigozhin now disappears for a while. We don't know.

If he's been listed on that plane, does he emerge shortly and say to everybody, he's actually fine? Did he get back from Africa suddenly very quickly and find himself on this private jet? A lot of questions to be answered here, but it's important to point out these are state media channels, and the state agency Rosaviatsiya telling us that he's indeed on that private jet.

That may not have happened by accident. We're still, I think, trying to work out what's really happened here, but if state messages are this clear, there may be a bid suggest that Prigozhin was indeed on that plane, the fate of which is now clear, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question.

It's important to inject that question because we don't know for certain he was on the plane. We do know, as you say, that state media's reporting he was listed on the passengers on board, and this was a plane that he was known to use.

We should also note first as a matter of context that the Russian president has not hesitated to kill his opponents in a number of ways. He used radioactive materials to kill Litvinenko in London. He attempted to kill Alexey Navalny using a nerve agent. As Nick referenced, there were a lot of officials who stood up to the Russian president who have fallen out of windows, accidentally or otherwise.

KEILAR: Many, many of them.

SCIUTTO: Other -- another one was famously shot quite close to the Kremlin.

Matthew Chance has also covered Russia extensively, joins us now on the phone.

Matthew, to that specific question, Russian state media, including the TASS News Agency, are reporting that he was on board. What is the significance of Russian state media reporting that he was on this plane? MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean,

first of all, the significance is that it's something that makes it as close as we can possibly get to an official confirmation.

And it clearly shows that the authorities are fully aware and fully across these very dramatic developments that we're seeing unfold in Russia

[13:30:00]