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Wagner Boss Prigozhin Listed Among Passengers In Plane Crash; Russian State Media: Plane Matching Profile Of Prigozhin Aircraft Seen Falling Out Of Sky With 1 Wing Missing; Giuliani Reaches $150K Bond Agreement In Fulton County. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired August 23, 2023 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: "And now it would seem, to this."

I also just received a reaction moments ago from the Estonian prime minister. Estonia sits right on the border with Russia and has many interactions with the Kremlin, including hostile ones.

It says, "If true, it shows Putin will eliminate opponents and that scares anyone who is thinking of expressing opinion different than his."

Julia Ioffe has covered Russia for a number of years, written extensively about the Putin regime.

Julia, you know, as well as anyone, that Putin has a history of taking out, of killing opponents, dissidents, critics on Russian territory and outside Russian territory.

What is your reaction to what we're seeing so far?

JULIA IOFFE, FOUNDING PARTNER & WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, my first reaction, Jim, is that we know and we have known for a while exactly how Vladimir Putin thinks about specifically traitors.

Because Prigozhin was not an opponent and he was not a dissident but he was a traitor. And that's the worst kind of enemy. They meet the worst kind of fate.

And Putin has spoken about this extensively that he has said traitors will end up dead in a ditch. This is one way to get to a ditch.

The second thing is, Jim, you and I were in Aspen last month where CIA Director Bill Burns said, if he was Prigozhin, he would not fire his food taster because Putin believes is a dish best served cold. And that Putin is, quote, "the ultimate apostle of payback."

Everybody who knows Putin, and Bill Burns certain does, he's a well- known Russia specialist, in addition to running the Central Intelligence Agency, that this is how Putin views traitors and he will not stop.

Just because Prigozhin had a couple months to walk around and recruit troops to go to Africa, there was always this sword over his head.

SCIUTTO: That's a good point. Because a couple of folks they couldn't kill or attempted to kill Sergei Skripal, for instance, the former KGB agent who turned himself over to British authorities. He tried to kill him with a nerve agent --

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: --in Salsbury. Alexander Litvinenko, he successfully killed with polonium. Also viewed as a traitor.

That's a great point because there's no worse crime to Putin than to be one of his guys, right, and then betray him.

IOFFE: That's right. And --

(CROSSTALK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Julia, I wonder what you make of the various developments that we have seen here recently. General Surovikin getting the boot, obviously, someone whose loyalty to Putin was questioned in the wake of the coup, Putin recently purging a lot of generals.

There's been a pattern of him cleaning house here in recent months.

IOFFE: Yes. And this seems like the last bit of clean-up that was left. It seemed like, in the meantime, Putin cleared up the people who were directly in his chain of command.

So with the military, we still haven't seen Surovikin, we haven't heard from him. Sources in the U.S. government are telling me he's likely in detention, under detention. And yesterday, we finally got confirmation that he was, in fact, fired from his post.

It seemed he knew about the mutiny beforehand. Others, other lower- ranking officers were cleared out afterwards.

But Prigozhin was walking around like a free man. He was seen, photographed with various African leaders at the African summit that was held in Russia. He just posted a video earlier this week looking like he was in Africa saying he was recruiting fighters, quote, unquote, "strong men" to go to Africa with him.

It was like, why is he still walking around? Is Putin going to let him get out scott free?

Today, I just want to point out, today is two months to the day that Prigozhin announced his march of fairness on Moscow on June 23rd. Putin loves anniversaries and he hates traders.

SCIUTTO: This is new video from the crash scene, a little closer view of what is a catastrophic crash. You can see in the last frame there some of the cockpit there. But all on fire. Russian authorities said a short time ago they recovered four bodies. We should note, the Russian Investigative Committee said it launched a

criminal case. We should take any criminal case launched by Russian authorities or investigation with a heap of salt.

If you look for instance, the circumstance when Russia shot down M.H.- 17 over Ukraine, the U.S. had a good deal of data showing it was a Russian missile that took it down. Russia's investigation, its own investigation, of course, denied that reality.

Evelyn Farkas joins us now. She's former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia/Ukraine/Eurasia.

[14:35:00]

Evelyn, there's one major thing we don't know right now and that is for certain that Prigozhin was on that plane. We know he was on the passenger list for that plane according to Russian state media.

We also know that was a plane -- and this is something CNN's own reporting indicate -- that that is a plane based on edge administration, that it belongs to him and that it fell out of the sky.

Your reaction as you absorb this news. Does this look to be an intentional act?

EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR RUSSIA/UKRAINE;/EURASIA: Yes, Jim and Brianna, it's interesting because my first reaction was he is probably is dead. But when he died, whether he died in this plane crash is another question.

We haven't seen Prigozhin live in person, I don't think -- I mean, we've seen these pictures of him that Julia Ioffe referred to and the video.

We don't know when these pictures were taken, when the video was shot. We don't know whether Prigozhin was dead, whether he was on that plane, whether he's dead or he died another way.

But it is likely, if he's not dead, he will be soon. Therefore, it's likely that he's dead because Putin, in the wake of the march on Moscow that Prigozhin initiated and conducted, Putin called it traitorous. He said it was a stab in the back. And we know what he does with traitors. He kills them. He kills them. He hunts them down all over the world and kills them.

And this is a moment, Jim, we should note, where Putin is looking very weak on the international stage. He was supposed to be in South Africa today, supposed to be at the BRICS summit, the summit of the kind of nonaligned countries, Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

He couldn't go because there was an arrest warrant for him from the International Criminal Court that the South Africans would have had to abide by. That made him look weak. He's trapped in Russia.

So picking this day, yes, he does like dates that matter. I would imagine he would like this exact two-month date from when Prigozhin marched on Moscow but he also needed something now to shore up his image.

KEILAR: And, Evelyn, you know, how do you see the big picture here with the war in Ukraine? Certainly, all of these Russian casualties -- and, listen, we have to be clear, there is a lot of internal Russian support for the war.

But there are also a lot of dead Russians and a lot of families who have paid the toll internally the greatest toll. And there are a lot of people with questions as well inside of Russia.

How do you see Vladimir Putin's position right now? And what this says about his desire to try to shore up his support internally as he's trying to play this out here for the next year as he's helping to get maybe a little more favorable outcome in the election in the U.S.

FARKAS: Yes, I mean, Brianna, I think most of us, when we saw that Prigozhin wasn't immediately hauled off to jail or, you know, suffered an accident or was killed by Putin, we thought, well, it may be because he needs Prigozhin to do something for him.

It may also be that he's really afraid of the nationalist and the Russian people's reaction.

Because Prigozhin, remember, said a lot of things about how badly the war was going and how the military wasn't providing him with enough ammunition, how the Russian men fighting in the trenches in Ukraine were being let down by their government. That resonated with the Russian people.

So I think, regardless of all the other motives, Putin may have been thinking I have to bide my time and take this guy down when I have assessed I have all the control, I have all the other elites behind me.

I have maybe some way to address the Russian population that won't make me further weaker. I don't know whether the Russian people will take this, you know, in stride.

Because there are all indications that Putin is looking to actually do another mobilization. He's raised the military age for men who are qualified to be called up in a draft to fight in Ukraine and he's clamping down on people who want to leave.

So this may end up backfiring on him or he may have assessed that he has enough control, he's gotten rid of the generals who would cause problems and other elites who might do so as well and he can proceed.

SCIUTTO: We have some more news coming in. We're sharing with you as it comes into here.

And that is the plane, which matches the profile of the Embraer Legacy 600, the model of the plane that appears to have gone down here, is seen falling out of the sky with one wing missing. This, according to video published by Russia state media. Once again,

a lot of these reports coming from Russian state media, including the detail that Prigozhin was on the passenger list of this plane that went down.

[14:40:05]

The reason that we note this detail is that a plane with a wing missing is not something that typically happens to planes in flight.

It raises a whole host of possibilities as to what happened to this jet in the air that brought it down to the ground, including a possibility of some sort of explosion or missile strike.

KEILAR: And on the question of the missile strike, what we heard Pete saying was, in that case of a missile strike, a missing would zero in on the hottest part of the plane and that would be the engine, which is located on the wing. So this development is going to raise a lot of questions.

SCIUTTO: And it also presents the opportunity, if someone other than Russian investigators could get to the scene, that you could then confirm what kind of missile brought the plane down.

For instance, in the case of M.H.-17, they were able to pick pieces of a Russian Buk missile out of the cockpit of that plane to prove it was a Russian missile that took it down.

So if you were able to get credible investigators there, you could then figure out what brought it down. Whether it's a missile or not. It could be an explosion on board. There are other opportunities.

Again --

KEILAR: Such a good point.

SCIUTTO: -- we're getting these details in. And many coming from Russian state media. Russian state media has an axe to grind, is not a credible source on a number of these things.

But we do have CNN's own reporting that has tied this jet now lying in flames there on the ground there to being one owned and operated by Yevgeny Prigozhin, one that he has flown on multiple times before.

Fred Pleitgen continues to be with us. He is in Berlin now but has spent many years covering Russia and the Russian leadership.

Tell us your reaction as you're seeing these details being released by Russian state media.

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, first of all, those videos are remarkable with that plane coming down and seemingly having encountered something catastrophic.

I'm speaking to folks inside Russia who are all saying they believe that plane was taken down by an outside source or something inside the plane.

One of the things you guys have been talking about, which is absolutely key, is that Vladimir Putin did view and said that he viewed Yevgeny Prigozhin as a traitor.

And when he started that mutiny two months ago and marched toward Moscow, that seems to be where that big break where Putin and Yevgeny Prigozhin took place. Before that, the two were very loyal and close to one another. And

Prigozhin was always loyal to Vladimir Putin.

When he did that march on Moscow, maybe he did not realize how much he was crossing Vladimir Putin and what that would do. And he wanted to unseat the top general, going to the Russian Defense Ministry, and still remaining loyal to Vladimir Putin. Clearly, Putin saw that in a different way.

At the same time, it took a very long time for something to happen to Yevgeny Prigozhin. It was surprising to see him, very quickly after that, already resurfacing in Russia and then resurfacing in Belarus and then resurfacing in Africa and reconstituting that whole company and taking it to a different location.

One of the things that's key as well is that the Wagner private military company. once it left Ukraine. became a lot weaker. We have to keep in mind that they gave up all of their very heavy weapons and gave them back to the Russian military.

So this essentially was a mercenary group once again, one that could not defend itself, if it came to a conflict there, and certainly one that was weakened as well.

I think the other thing that we have to keep in mind is, while the Wagner mercenaries went to Belarus afterwards, conducting training for the Russian military and seeing where they wanted to go next, it certainly seemed as though that was always an uncomfortable situation.

Even said that they wanted to go somewhere else, that they were threatening to invade NATO territory, invade Poland because they were getting so antsy moving off the battlefield. And then they were maneuvering toward Africa.

So really this was not the same organization that it had been in Ukraine. That was also certainly a big pride for the organization, despite the fact that obviously that was very brutal.

But I've been in contact with folks from Wagner and they took great pride in their performance on the battlefield inside Ukraine. So a lot of that was shattered by that.

And certainly you could tell that Yevgeny Prigozhin was also a figure who had become a lot weaker than he was before.

[14:44:58]

But once again, I also think one of the things that we really have to look out for was if Yevgeny Prigozhin was on the plane, but if his second in command was on the plane as well.

All the things we have seen from the Wagner private military company in the past eight years. Inside Syria -- I saw them in Syria years ago when they were starting to operate there. And later in Ukraine as well.

He was behind a lot of that. And that would certainly indicate a complete decapitation of the entire Wagner military company and an uncertain future.

SCIUTTO: Decapitation is the word.

KEILAR: Yes. That would make sense if Vladimir Putin had questions about Prigozhin and those close to him. He would have as well.

You know, Fred's mentioning there the presence of Wagner in Belarus, not sustainable. So much of what happened right after that coup was not sustainable, including the sort of state of the Kumbaya relations with Yevgeny Prigozhin.

So for those of us joining us here, according to Russian state media, a plane matching the description of Yevgeny Prigozhin's, which is a jet, an Embraer jet has crashed northwest of Moscow.

And this is video that's coming from the Tver region where you can see this plane just falling out of the sky. And according to observations, it does appear to be missing a wing.

I want to bring in retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.

Cedric, a 26-year career in the Air Force, including much of that as an intelligence officer, what questions are raised for you as you are looking at what are pretty extraordinary pictures that we are getting in here and these details that we are learning?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, Brianna, I think one of the key things was, what kind of explosion was this? Was it something caused by a missile, like when M.H.-17, or was it something that happened with an onboard explosion, something that could have been created by a bomb placed onboard the aircraft.

So that's something that is not quite clear yet based on what we've seen so far.

If it's true that a wing was missing as the plane came down, obviously, the plane is not airworthy in that situation. And when it comes down like that, it's not something that can fly in a normal pattern.

And that would explain the trajectory of the plane as it was, you know, moving rapidly toward the ground. So those are key things.

Then from a more broader perspective, looking at this power struggle that we're clearly seeing between Putin, Prigozhin, the Wagner elements, all of those things become a key element in what we have to analyze here, why this happened. And then also, if, in fact, Prigozhin is on board this aircraft and if his second in command is on board, then you get into a situation where it's the decimation of the Wagner Group.

Which is clearly going forward in this case. I think we're seeing the results of that effort by Putin to get rid of any opposition from at least that sector.

SCIUTTO: We should note, as the U.S. assesses this -- the U.S. has tremendous ability to watch the planet for any missile launch anywhere. It can detect the burn as the missile is launched.

It's how they determined that a M.H.-17 was brought down by a Russian missile in 2014. They can detect the burn of the missile, where it came from, which was Russian territory, what kind of missile it was.

So presumably. they're looking at that right now. The Defense Intelligence Agency has the capability to look to see if there was something that went up before that plane went down or also to detect an explosion on board.

And they've used those capabilities to investigate things like this in the past. I was in the room when they determined that M.H.-17 was brought down by a Russian missile.

Anyway, many more questions to ask.

That's certainly an interesting one, Cedric. I wonder what you think about that.

LEIGHTON: It's absolutely right, what you're mentioning, Brianna, because, what you're looking at is heat signature. And the instrumentation that is used in order to determine whether a missile launch occurred is quite sensitive. It is also global in nature.

And that becomes key in nature for missile launches as well as attacks on aircraft. It becomes part of the intelligence as to how these things actually happened, and potentially what other things might come up as a result of that.

This is certainly a catastrophic failure for the aircraft, but it seems very much to be induced by an external force, not something internal to the aircraft.

[14:50:06]

KEILAR: Yes, maybe we'll get some answers soon because it does seem, obviously, there's an ability to get them.

Cedric, thank you so much.

I do want to shift gears, real quick here. We have breaking news from Fulton County, Georgia. That has to do with Rudy Giuliani. We been waiting a while.

CNN's Paula Reid is outside the courthouse in Atlanta. Tell us what you're learning, Paula.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, a moment ago, Giuliani and his Georgia-based legal team just exited the door behind me. They left the Fulton County courthouse where they were meeting with the district attorney to negotiate a bond agreement for Giuliani and establish the terms of his release.

Now, we just got his bond agreement and it is for $150,000. He will have to post a percentage of that.

He has certain restrictions about who he can and cannot discuss the case with. Now, according to the terms of his release, he cannot discuss the case with any of his co-defendants.

So former President Trump is, of course, one of his co-defendants. We know the former president will host a fundraiser for him in a few weeks. Rudy Giuliani and others have been in touch with Trump about getting more money to help Rudy Giuliani pay his legal bills.

So unclear if he'll be able to walk that line between continuing the relationship and not discussing the Fulton County case at all. He's also prohibited from threatening anyone involved in this case.

Now, he's also prevented from communicating about this case with anyone who could be called as a witness.

This is interesting, Brianna, because Bernie Kerik is an unindicted co-conspirator. It is possible he could be called as a witness. And he's been with Rudy Giuliani. We believe he even traveled to Georgia. They're longtime friends.

And Kerik has been helping him try to find the right counsel to handle this case and walk him through this whole process, even though Kerik is not an attorney, but a former New York commissioner.

Again, if Kerik is helping him through this process but he can't talk to anyone who could be a witness in this case about the case, that could prove a little tricky.

The next stop for Rudy Giuliani, who did not come for this meeting, he will head to the Fulton County Sheriff's Office to surrender. Brianna, that process is expected to include fingerprints and a mugshot.

Truly remarkable, the idea of Rudy Giuliani, formerly one of the top law enforcement officials in the United States when he was U.S. attorney in New York, now a criminal defendant, and soon to have a publicly released mugshot as he is now a criminal defendant here in Fulton County.

KEILAR: In his most recent comments, Paula, he really seemed to make a big deal out of what you just said. Someone who put away some of the biggest criminals in recent history -- I'm paraphrasing.

He said, now here he is having to turn himself in. He also said, here they are going after the lawyers and he said that that is unprecedented.

But that's not actually unprecedented. We've seen it with Watergate.

REID: Not at all.

KEILAR: The lawyers do get in trouble when they do things to get themselves in trouble.

REID: Absolutely. Attorneys are not immune from prosecution. Neither are former law enforcement officials.

Bernie Kerik is helping him through this, former New York police commissioner. He was prosecuted. He was convicted. He was ultimately pardoned by former President Trump, in part, thanks to Rudy Giuliani.

But as we've seen across the country, state level, federal level. Just because you are a law enforcement official in no way insulate you from being charged with a crime if a prosecutor believes there is evidence to charge you.

But it will be up to the jury here in Fulton County or, potentially, at the federal level, because Giuliani has said he will try to get it to the federal court. It will be up to the jury whether he is guilty and ultimately convicted.

But the idea that he shouldn't be charged solely because you used to prosecute people, that's not the way justice works in the United States.

KEILAR: It's quite a change, though, for Rudy Giuliani from yesteryear.

Paula Reid, thank you very much for the latest there.

We'll have a whole lot more on this story ahead.

And on the breaking news that we've been covering for the last couple of hours. Wagner chief, Yevgeny Prigozhin, listed among passengers on board a plane that crashed northwest of Moscow. That is according to Russian state media.

But we are seeing these pictures. The tail numbers appear to jive with what we know the tail numbers of the jet linked to him are. So that is significant. You're seeing some pictures just in. We're going to continue to follow this after a quick break.

This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:58:59]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

SCIUTTO: We are following major news this hour. Russian state media is reporting that Wagner chief, Yevgeny Prigozhin, the man who led the short-lived rebellion against Putin in Russia two months ago to the day, was listed among the passengers on board a jet that crashed just north of Moscow.

This is video of that plane going down, smoke trailing behind it. And then you'll see in a moment the burning wreckage on the ground.

Russian state media now says that eight bodies have 10 Russian state media has said were on board have been discovered at the site.

CNN chief international security correspondent, Nick Peton Walsh, is in Ukraine.

I wonder what reaction you're hearing from Ukrainian officials. Prigozhin's forces fought in Ukraine. They were some of the most brutal and they were highly involved in fighting in the east in recent months.

[14:59:56]

What's the Ukrainian reaction to this news?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, let me give you a brief reaction from someone serving right on the front line in the heart of the counteroffensive.

Initially, they said maybe it is time for good champagne.