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Wagner Boss Prigozhin Listed Among Plane Crash Passengers; Giuliani Surrenders At Fulton County Jail, Bond Set At $150K; Giuliani Speaks After Surrendering In Georgia Election Case. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired August 23, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There were suggestions his plane was headed towards Belarus. So, the fact that is on this passenger manifest of this rare private jet link to him, tracked around the world, is a clear indication something is afoot. The way Russian state media has leaped upon this and put the manifest out quite early would possibly suggest, there's a hand here and trying to suggest he may have passed. But until essentially, we see some clear proof that he has died, or recognition from those around him in the Wagner Group that is indeed the case, this is still a deep mystery.

And I should point out too, Jim, as well, the investigating here of the gruesome remains of a plane crash, you've seen images from the wreckage sites here it's appalling as you would normally expect from the aftermath of a plane crash. If that were done by transparent Western investigators using DNA technology, that would be tough. But instead we're going to be dealing with Russian investigators, Russian state media. A clear agenda media there, as we've always heard from them.

You should hear the things they've said about the Ukrainian war. They say what they're told and it's unclear quite what they'll be told at this point. Instead, there we have this remarkable mystery of exactly how Yevgeny Prigozhin survived this long, the most prominent critic of Putin frankly yet. And also quite what happened to him that led him to be listed as being on this plane -- Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It's a great point. Because Russian investigators do not have a good track record of creditably investigating events like this. Looking for instance, for evidence of what exactly brought that plane down. They've lied about it in the past, again, if you look at the experience of MH-17. So that's an important point. To get true answers, you would needle a reputable group, given where down in Russian territories unlikely to get them.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And if Russian officials get there first, then even if there is a reputable group going in, they're going to be questions.

SCIUTTO: Create their own reality. KEILAR: I do want to go now to Kylie Atwood who is covering the State Department for us. She's there at the State Department. You know, it's really interesting because we've heard from a number of American officials, including the Secretary of State, sort of warning in a way some foreboding something like this might happen, Kylie.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right. And I, you know, comments that we have seen then from top Biden administration officials over the course of the last, you know, two months here, really demonstrate that they were publicly willing to say that they believe that Prigozhin still had a target on his back. That he could be killed by the Kremlin because of this coup that he failed to carry out when he, you know, staged that march on Moscow.

And we should note that it came from administration officials across the board. President Biden warned that Prigozhin should be careful about the food that he was eating. CIA Director Bill Burns agreed with that assessment. Said that Prigozhin shouldn't fire his food taster and said that Putin is the, quote, apostle of paybacks. Saying that he would be surprised if Prigozhin were to escape further retaliation. And the Secretary of State Antony Blinken said that Russia has an open window policy.

So all of them being very clear in saying that, you know, even though there was a certain period of time where perhaps things had been, you know, smoothed over or there was a perception that thing were smoothed over between Putin and Prigozhin with the two meeting and Prigozhin trying to say that what he was doing was really just to protect Wagner or not to actually go after the Kremlin. U.S. officials were still saying that Prigozhin wasn't safe.

And I talked to one U.S. official today who said that he has been a dead man walking for a while now. So comments like that help to inform what we're seeing are these early comments coming out of the White House and from President Biden himself saying they aren't surprised if these reports coming out from Russian state media are indeed true.

SCIUTTO: We're also joined by Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, I believe. If he is present and hearing me -- there you are sir. You know well the capabilities of the U.S. military with events like this. Satellites can see and monitor explosions both in the air and any explosion that could conceivably have taken place prior, including the launch of a missile prior, or a missile detonating in front of a jet like this or any explosion on board. Can you describe what U.S. military and intelligence assets would be doing right now determine for themselves what exactly happened here?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, Jim, you mentioned this at the end of the last hour, and you were right on target. I would venture to say the U.S. intelligence systems across the board, if they had a platform over Russia and no doubt they do, if you're talking about the route between Moscow and St. Petersburg, I'm sure there's coverage of that. They will pick up any heat signature from anything on the ground or they will pick up an explosion that occurs in the sky.

[15:35:02]

So we can conject and have a bunch of aircraft analysts on to say what might have happened and how it would have affected this falling plane that you're showing now on the screen. But I would venture say that I think the U.S. intelligence community probably already has a pretty good feal of it.

To your other question of the analyst inside the military. What does this mean? And this is the point where truthfully, Jim, I don't give a fig if Prigozhin was in this crash or not. What I'm concerned is what is going on inside the Russian military? There have been rumors that Mr. Putin kind of transform the military to take over all the private military companies, the PMCs as Prigozhin led. If that happens, there's certainly a lot of loyalty is -- has already been mentioned toward Prigozhin by his thousands of mercenaries.

Those individuals are going to be pretty upset. Primarily because they get paid well in the PMC and most Russian soldiers don't. so, you're talking about a split between these PMCs and the regular military, number one. If Shoyu and Gerasimov, the two leaders of the ministry of defense in Russia have now taken claim to revamp the military during a time of war. At the same time where it appears Ukraine's momentum is steadily increasing, although it's still slow, we're going to see some really interesting things. This is not a good time to start reforming the military to try and address the failures and the dysfunction (INAUDIBLE).

KEILAR: Jim -- no, it may not be. General, if you can stand by, we of course are monitoring two breaking stories, very different stories.

I want to go now to Georgia and Fulton County where our Zach Cohen is standing by as we are awaiting word from Rudy Giuliani. Actually, let's go to Nick Valencia who is there in Atlanta to tell us a little bit about what you are seeing and expecting -- Nick.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's chaos here to be quite honest. It is a circus. A lot of media just anxiously awaiting the exit of the former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani, the former attorney for the former president. We are looking at his, what appear to be -- appears to be his vehicle exiting the jail right now. He seems to be held up by some sheriff's deputies. But he is all but guaranteed that he wanted to make a statement to the media after being arrested, and after surrendering. So we are standing by with a host of others from networks from around the world waiting for Giuliani to comment.

Ahead of his expected press conference, we have been talking to an individual who identified himself as an adviser to the mayor. He briefly talked about the bond agreement that was negotiated with the district attorney's office here in Fulton County. But the really didn't say much else. Saying that he is going to leave it to Rudy Giuliani to speak about the process.

We heard Giuliani leave New York City earlier this morning where he parroted the narrative that this is politically motivated. That he would be hard-pressed to find a prosecutor like him with a record like his in the last 100 years. We've been talking about this at nauseam but it's worth underscoring. The irony of a man who literally used the RICO statute in the '80s to take down some of the most violent criminals this country has ever seen, only to be indicted himself with the same statute.

It has been an incredible fall from grace for a man who was known as America's mayor. And now for him to be on the other side of the justice system.

One of the outstanding questions here that we want to ask him, who exactly paid for the plane, the private plane, we understand, that he used to travel down here from the northeast to Georgia. Last we heard that Giuliani was running out of money and was having difficulty finding local representation to take him through this bond agreement process.

Another question is, if he regrets attaching his name to the former president. He has been held accountable it seems by the prosecutors' office here, meeting with Georgia lawmaker at least three time after the former president lost the 2020 election. He met with Georgia lawmakers three time to spread conspiracy theories and election lies. In those conversations with Georgia lawmaker.

And we caught up with him when he testified in front of the special purpose grand jury and asked him if he lied to Georgia lawmakers when he spoke. He didn't really answer the questions. He did, we should mention, testify as well in front of the special purpose grand jury. That was the body that gathered the evidence that then presented charging recommendations to Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis. Who then took her case to the grand jury here to ultimately get indictments against 19 co-defendants.

So as we stand here outside the Fulton County Jail on a very hot Wednesday in Atlanta, we're waiting for Rudy Giuliani to come to the cameras to make a statement -- Jim, Brianna.

SCIUTTO: We also have our Zach Cohen who is outside the Fulton County Jail. That is where those charged in this case have been surrendering themselves. Rudy Giuliani among the latest. Tell us what you're seeing there.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, Jim, we're all just waiting for Rudy Giuliani to leave the jail. He went in roughly a little under an hour ago. And you know, we have been told he's going to come out and he's going to speak to reporters.

[15:40:04]

Now as nick mentioned, Rudy Giuliani did speak to reporters before he got on the plane to come to Atlanta, Georgia and he sounded a lot like Donald Trump. He was very defiant. He said the prosecutors were coming after him for simply doing his job as an attorney and an adviser to the former president. Now the also said that, you know, the lawsuits that he file and the work that he did on behalf of Trump was all valid. You know, that precludes the fact that Rudy Giuliani did also try to overturn the 2020 election and claimed that it was stolen and echoed the baseless claim of widespread voter fraud without ever producing any evidence to support those facts.

So as we wait for Rudy Giuliani to emerge from the jail, it is going to be interesting to see, did he take a mugshot? Did he get fingerprinted like the other defendants that we know of bond in today and yesterday?

KEILAR: And we have Evan Perez with us here onset. You know, Nick Valencia brought up the question of, does he regret attaching himself to the former president?

No -- Giuliani is in this car as we understand it. We're looking at this SUV. This is the SUV with tinted windows. So we'll be awaiting to see if he says anything.

And as we do that, Evan, he has been so outspoken. No indication that he regrets attaching himself to the former president.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, and this is despite the fact that the former president from our reporting has rejected his efforts to, you know, his pleas to help pay for some of his legal defense. It appears perhaps he might try to change that in the coming days. But you heard him today as he left his apartment building, almost speaking to an audience of one. And you see him there emerging. It appears he's trying to emerge from this car surrounded by --

SCIUTTO: They have lots of cameras.

KEILAR: Let's actually -- let's listen in. Because I think this is a rather chaotic situation. And let's see what's going on there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to hear from the mayor, please, go to the spot that we all agreed on. We agreed to do it over there. Please, guys. Please. We're not going to get out. We're not going to get out. Come on. I know you. Gary, get over there. Come on!

SCIUTTO: As we've been saying, Giuliani is expected to make comments. That's the back door to the SUV. It appears they made arrangements with reporters there. Evan Perez, you say the president -- Giuliani was speaking to an audience of one when he was saying, it's my right to be a lawyer. They're destroying my right to counsel. That was his comment this morning.

PEREZ: Right, and he pointed out, that they're going -- what he said was that they're going after all of the former president's attorneys because John Eastman, of course, Sydney Powell, people who provided legal advice to the former president.

SCIUTTO: Let's listen in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Giuliani, who paid for your jet down?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to stand --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who paid for your jet down here Mr. Giuliani? Do you regret attaching your nail to the former president? RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY AND CO-DEFENDANT: Do I what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you regret attaching your name to the former president?

GIULIANI: I am very, very honored to be involved in this case. Because this case is a fight for our way of life. This indictment is a travesty. It's an attack on not just me, not just President Trump, not just people in this indictment. Some of whom I don't even know. This is an attack on the American people. If this can happen to me, who is probably the most prolific prosecutor maybe in American history and the most effective mayor for sure, it can happen to you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does it feel to be on the other side of the justice system? How does it feel to be on the other side of the justice system?

GIULIANI: All right, don't interrupt me. I'm making a statement.

If they can do this to me, they can do this to you. Remember, three years ago, the FBI raided my apartment and my law office. And they investigated me for two and a half years. 20 years of my life they investigated and they wrote a letter to the grand jury that they couldn't find a single crime. So that should have pretty much cleared me. Don't you think?

Except for this ridiculous case in which I'm being prosecuted for defending an American citizen who I do as a lawyer. And five other lawyers are indicted. That should tell you right away that this is an assault on our Constitution. Fani Willis will go down in American history as having conducted one of the worst attacks on the American Constitution ever when this case is dismissed. She has violated people's First Amendment right to advocate for the government, to petition the government for grievances, like an election they believe was poorly conducted or falsely conducted. People have the right to believe that in America.

Biden and the Biden state doesn't have a right to tell you what the truth is.

[15:45:00]

And number two -- number two -- and I will tell you, if you need to know what this is all about, the FBI stole my iCloud account. And you know, when they stole it? The day that I began representing Donald Trump three years ago. They gave it back the day after I represented Donald Trump. So for all that time, the federal government was spying on Donald Trump and his lawyer. I am being indicted because I'm a lawyer, as is --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Mayor Last month -- Mr. Mayor, last month --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayor, will you be here tomorrow?

GIULIANI: By the way, you're wrong. I didn't do that. I entered into a stipulation for the purposes of that case to move on. I specifically said, I do not in any way admit the truth of those allegations. Those allegations are totally false.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you still believe the election was rigged, Mr. Giuliani?

GIULIANI: You're wrong and you're lying as you often do. If you read it, it says it was only for the purposes of that case and it was not an admission.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you still believe the election was rigged? Mr. Giuliani, do you still believe the election was rigged?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, good job. Stay with him.

SCIUTTO: There was Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump's former personal lawyer, making his case for innocence. In effect saying -- and his exact words were -- people have a right to believe. That he's referring to a stolen election. Let's listen in. He might still be commenting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got it.

They took the whole thing and you the drone and looked great. They may take -- (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: We have with us Norm Eisen, Evan Perez as well. He's making the case in effect, Norm Eisen, that there's nothing wrong with believing, even if wasn't true, that the election was stolen and therefore pursuing every, as he claims, legal outlet to contest the election. What's your response to that? Defense, as it were.

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there are two problems with the defense that has been previewed here. The first is, the evidentiary basis and the second is the legal basis. On the evidentiary basis, it will be very difficult to persuade a jury that the 2020 election was stolen. A variety of courts and other authorities have definitively cohesive.

SCIUTTO: It was they just believed it, whether it was true or not, they believed it.

EISEN: And that brings us, Jim, to the legal insufficiency. Take this January 2nd call to Raffensperger. Just find 11,780 votes. I may believe you owe me $11,780. But if I break into your house and help myself, no matter my good faith belief, there are laws.

PEREZ: But it's more than that, right? I mean the former president and Rudy and all of these people, they actually filed lawsuits. There were about 60 lawsuits.

KEILAR: It's actions and not words.

PEREZ: And they took actions. Right. And they were rejected. So, you know, there is a process by which you can make, you know, you can put forward those claims and they were adjudicated. They were seen by the courts and they were roundly rejected. And of course the Republican leadership of Georgia says that it is not true, right? So I mean, what else is there that you can do?

KEILAR: The Republican leaders of Georgia, these are actions based on claims that are false and that they know to be false. In some cases, there is actual written documentation that they were aware they were false.

PEREZ: I think what we're seeing though today is, I mean, beginning with his apartment speech this morning, and those comments just now, is the former president, I'm sorry, the former president's lawyer is hugging the former president as tightly as he can. Because he needs him to help pay for his legal fees. He needs him desperately. And so, he has decided that all of his eggs are in Donald Trump and he needs to make sure that he stays as close as possible.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you for your expert advice, Norm Eisen. Because another hole in his argument there is that for instance, when you're dealing specifically with the fake elector's scheme. When they concocted this plan, they made it seem like only if they were to win a case in court. Of course, they did and yet continued to pursue that plan.

EISEN: That's another one of these actions that we're talking about. Beyond the lawsuits. They fabricated, allegedly, electoral certificates. Those have no more legal validity than counterfeit documents. And then to pile on top of the actions, there was a scheme here allegedly, and we have to remember Mr. Giuliani and all these defendants, innocent until proven guilty.

KEILAR: Can we just say this video that you're looking at is Rudy Giuliani, and I believe, is that Bernie Kerik with him, to be clear?

[15:50:02]

Walking into a bail bond office. Is that what you call it? A bail bond office

PEREZ: Right, a bail bond office, correct. And that's the process by which they either put up the money to secure the bond that they've already signed, and they promised that, you know, if for whatever reason Mr. Giuliani does not present himself for the proceedings that he'll owe this money to the bondsman.

SCIUTTO: Second Chance Bail Bonds is the name of the place. This is the former president's former personal attorney, by the way former mayor of New York City, former prosecutor himself, who sent many folks he prosecuted to bail bonds offices, bondsman offices like that in the past. And now he himself is walking through that door.

EISEN: Exactly. The historic nature of this. The man who was perhaps the most well-known prosecutor now having put so many people to surrender for arrest, to get bail bond, to be put on trial, to be indicted, now himself on the other side.

SCIUTTO: Question -- is Giuliani the only one who would need to go -- can we presume that the former president will need to get similar insurance as it were? PEREZ: We don't know how he's going to pay for the bond.

SCIUTTO: Like the bond itself.

PEREZ: Right. He's allegedly a billionaire, so he can do that himself. But you know, certainly from our understanding he's using -- he can and is expected to use a bondsman, as well. Because I mean, it's a way for you to just put up minimal amount of money to make sure your continued freedom is still there.

KEILAR: I do not expect we will be seeing him walk into a Second Chance or any other bail bondsman shop to deal with this.

But to the point we were talking about, this idea of words versus actions because we hear Rudy Giuliani making a point of saying this is a First Amendment issue. Which we know very clearly it isn't. But I wonder who he's speaking to? Because supporters -- we know he's speaking to Donald Trump. But also supporters of Donald Trump.

When you talk to a lot of them, they're not even necessarily aware of this fake electors' scheme in the states. The information they are consuming doesn't mention it. They are insulated from knowing about it. So the actions parts of it, they see the speeches before the riots on the capitol. And that is really, I think, what informs them of what is happening. There are a lot of missing pieces for them that are not missing in these legal documents.

EISEN: Well, it's two different courts. It's the court of public opinion, that's one thing. But this case is moving briskly. Mr. Giuliani is going to have to face a court of law, ultimately a jury of his peers. And these kinds of arguments as a legal matter, the First Amendment argument, there is no First Amendment right to say words or take actions that constitute a crime. If I go to the bank, stick them up, and I get arrested, no, I can't claim a First Amendment defense.

So it's shocking. It's hard to process the alleged illegality of what happened here. But at least the allegations are that it's not just contrary to the facts but so contrary to the law to have fake electoral certificates to tell the vice president he could walk into Congress and just recognize the losers' electoral certificates or suspend the whole procedure and send it back to friendly legislatures to adopt the electors of the loser -- I mean, that's beyond. That's why these legal defenses are unlikely to avail.

SCIUTTO: And we should note while the former president and his attorney there attack the whole proceedings, as they have all these proceedings as the movements -- work of the radical left, you have the former vice president, Republican, who said what the president at the time asked him to do was not legal or constitutional. And you have others involved and many of the witnesses in this case are, as you were saying, Georgia state Republican officials, governor, election officials and so on down the line.

PEREZ: I think one of the most important things is that as soon as early next week we're going to get a test of this argument that they're making, which is that what they were doing, what Mark Meadows was doing, and what Rudy Giuliani and some of the others were doing was in the service of the former president, and under his official duties. And as a result, they deserve for this case to be essentially moved away from the state court and brought to federal court.

And then perhaps they'll take the second step, which is -- we expect to take the second step -- which is to say you got to dismiss this case. And so, we'll see whether a federal judge -- we'll get the first taking of the temperature so to speak. I think norm has -- he has a strong idea about where this will go. But look, I mean, these are valid -- these are very strong arguments they're making.

[15:55:00]

These are very good lawyers that they have, especially Mark Meadows. And so, we anticipate that they're going to get a fair hearing from some very serious judges.

EISEN: On the removal, Evan is right, what we'll get first is a kind of a dipping of a toe into the legal questions. Because all that Meadows and the others have to show -- and some of whom have filed, David Schaefer, who was the Republican Party chair, claims he was an officer of the United States. I mean, come on.

But Meadows has a more serious argument. Clark a little worse, a serious argument. All they have to show is, was it under color. But as Evan says, it's an important test because these acts appear to have been so far beyond -- they're alleged to have been so far beyond the -- what we call the outer perimeter of official duties that it may not even meet that very, very forgiving test for an initial consideration.

SCIUTTO: If it does, it would be adjudicated in a federal court, but as you noted many times, under state law. And therefore would not allow for a presidential pardon. Or is that -- is that a question for the courts?

EISEN: No, it is a question, but the -- that is probably clear. The -- in a removal case, there's one up there in the northern district of Georgia now. In a removal case the substantive law for the state, all of these criminal statutes that are in the indictment, the substance and law of the state is applied by the court. The procedural law will be federal procedural law. But pardons in the Constitution it says they're offense against the United States. These are offenses against Georgia. So this -- even if it goes to federal court, not pardonable. That doesn't mean people won't litigate it.

KEILAR: That's right. And they are. And I don't think we got this in because we've had so much going on here on both of these stories. But Fani Willis, the D.A., as she was asked -- because there was a deadline of 3:00 p.m. today, she had to respond to Mark Meadows on this. She told a federal court that it should not interfere in any efforts to arrest Mark Meadows should the former White House chief of staff fail to turn himself in by Friday's deadline.

In a court filing she called his request improper and baseless. She said the hardship facing the defendant is no different than any other criminal defendant charged with a crime including his co-defendants who have either already surrendered to Fulton County authorities -- which is true, there's one arguing the same thing who's already surrendered. Or have agreed to so surrender in the time allotted by the district attorney.

PEREZ: Right, and that's key, right? Because Meadows is saying, I shouldn't even have to turn myself in. Judge, let me ignore the state court. And you know, it's a very tough argument to make, especially because everybody else has turned themselves in. And you know, you could -- Meadows can make his argument very reasonably after he's done that. But he's trying to forestall that. And he's trying to push this judge to save him the indignity that you're seeing from Rudy Giuliani. And I get it. Right? It's a -- it is an indignity that you don't want to necessarily go through. But it is the thing that all of them are going to have to go through.

SCIUTTO: Is there a conservative/liberal legal theory split on whether the state or federal court holds precedence here?

EISEN: No, I don't think it's a conservative/liberal division. Look, when I worked in the White House, I was a strong adherent of these laws because you do want federal officials to be protected. But there is also a long tradition in the Supreme Court of saying if you go outside the outer perimeter, if you're not under color of law, if it's not really an official act, and here the allegation is these are political acts when you call Brad Raffensperger just find 11,780 votes. There's no constitutional duty to find votes in a state election. There liberals and conservatives agree, if you color out the lines, you're not protected.

SCIUTTO: And as you noted many times, our system is run so that the states run those elections, right, a then you go to Congress.

Well, quite a day here on CNN. And the day continues. Certainly, legal developments in the courthouse and the jailhouse in Fulton County.

But these remarkable developments overseas with the possible death of the man who just two months ago to the day challenged Putin in a way he'd never been challenged before.

KEILAR: That's right. Yevgeny Prigozhin, according to Russian state media, on that passenger list of a jet that crashed northwest of Moscow. Still details to be worked out here, but this comes amid a bit of a reckoning for Vladimir Putin's enemies, perceived in real following that coup two months ago to the day.

[16:00:00]

And also, of course, watching what's happening in Fulton County where we just saw Rudy Giuliani, the former president's former lawyer, booked on $150 bond. Extraordinary, booked in jail, and then off to a bail bondsman to secure that process. Something the likes of which you just don't really see. To all of our guests, thank you so much.

SCIUTTO: "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper with much more news on all this starts right now.