Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Trump Set to Surrender in Georgia; Republican Debate Fallout. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired August 24, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:42]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Donald Trump is headed south to get arrested today. So why did he just shake up his legal team again?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: So, the post-debate mystery. Why did the other candidates leave Ron DeSantis alone? Should he be happy they didn't attack or sad that they didn't think it was worth the bother? New reaction coming in.

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: An accident or murder? A plane dropped from the sky in Russia said to be carrying Yevgeny Prigozhin two months to the day that he led a revolt against Putin's regime. Is Vladimir Putin behind that crash?

We're going to discuss it, I'm Sara Sidner with Kate Bolduan and John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BOLDUAN: Donald Trump has a schedule to keep today, leave his golf club in New Jersey, hop on a plane bound for Georgia, head to the county jail in Fulton County then, and be arrested again.

We have seen Trump enter several courts this year. There are courtroom sketches from New York, Florida and Washington, D.C., as he faces dozens of criminal charges. But we have never see him asked to enter a jail until now. What could also set this arrest apart from all the rest, he could be forced to stand for a mug shot and his arraignment could also be broadcast live.

The judge in this case has allowed cameras in the courtroom through at least September 8, is what we hear.

CNN's Paula Reid is standing by outside the jail in Fulton County now for us.

Paul, what is the latest that's happening behind you? How are they preparing?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, we expect the former president won't be here until later on this evening.

But there are definitely security preparations under way, road closures, folks confined to certain areas if they want to come here to watch or to protest. But we don't expect, again, this will happen until after rush hour traffic. One of the goals here is not to shut the city of Atlanta down,

because, even though former President Trump will be treated like any other defendant, he's not like any other defendant. He has a Secret Service detail, of course, and we have learned that he is going to get a full security escort.

So here's how this is going to work. We expect that he will leave his Bedminster, New Jersey, home in the afternoon, head here to surrender around 7:00 p.m. Now, this process for most people has taken a little over an hour. It involves fingerprinting, a mug shot and some paperwork.

The former president's lawyers have already come here to Georgia to negotiate his bond. So, this is just about having the former president processed. And, as you noted, even though this is his fourth indictment, this is the first time that we could see a mug shot of the former president.

In his federal cases and in the criminal case in Manhattan, they opted not to do a mug shot, arguing that mug shots are used to identify people if they go on the lam. But, of course, former President Trump is one of the most recognizable people in the world, so they decided they didn't need a mug shot.

But here in Fulton County, Kate, they're adamant that they want to treat every defendant equally, which is why, at this point, we do expect that mug shot will be taken. But we still have a while before the former president comes here.

We also have eyes out for former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark or former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. Kate, both of those men tried to get their surrender deadline pushed until after their efforts to move their case to the federal level were settled. But a judge disagreed, so both of them also expected here by noon on Friday.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

Thanks for being there, Paula. We will be checking back in with you -- Sara.

SIDNER: Right.

Right now, Trump is at his home in New Jersey gearing up to leave for his surrender there in Georgia, but not before making an 11th-hour change to his legal team.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is in Bridgewater, New Jersey, near his golf club.

Kristen, what are you learning about this change and why it was made?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Sara, well, Donald Trump is replacing his top Georgia lawyer just before he surrenders in Atlanta. What we know now is that Drew Findling, who has been representing

Trump in this Georgia investigation in the case -- he was actually part of the legal team who helped negotiate that $200,000 bond -- is being replaced by another Atlanta-based criminal defense attorney by the name of Steven Sadow.

[11:05:00]

Now, I was told by Trump sources that this was not about Findling's performance in any way, that it is because Sadow is simply the best defense attorney. But, of course, we are still trying to glean more details about why exactly this switch happened and why it happened so close to his surrender.

And I want to read you a statement that we got from Steve Sadow.

He said: "We look forward to the case being dismissed or, if necessary, an unbiased, open-minded jury finding the president not guilty. Prosecutions intended to advance or serve the ambitions and careers of political opponents of the president have no place in our justice system."

Of course, there, it appears he is referring to Fani Willis. That is that something that the former president himself has said routinely, that this is going to be used to advance her career in some way. And, as we know, the former president hasn't been hesitant to shake up his legal team even in the 11th hour.

Just back in June, he removed two of his top attorneys in that indictment into whether or not he mishandled classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago resort.

BERMAN: Kristen Holmes, thank you very much for that.

Now, on top of all of that, there was a debate last night. Donald Trump wasn't there, but eight candidates were. And here are some of the key moments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm the only person the stage who isn't bought and paid for, so I can say this. The climate change agenda is a hoax.

FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON (R-AR), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

MIKE PENCE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now is not the time for on- the-job training. We don't need to bring in a rookie.

FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like ChatGPT standing up here, the same type of amateur standing on stage tonight.

(BOOING)

(LAUGHTER)

RAMASWAMY: Give me a hug, just like you did to Obama.

CHRISTIE: The same type of amateur.

NIKKI HALEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is exactly why Margaret Thatcher said, if you want something said, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This election is not about January 6 of 2021. It's about January 20 of 2025.

PENCE: I had no right to overturn the election.

HALEY: It is time for a new generational conservative leader. Trump is the most disliked politician in America. We can't win a general election that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: With us now, former senior adviser to President Obama and CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod and CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp.

Those were just a few of the fiery moments.

Who won, David?

(LAUGHTER)

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think, in the -- in the largest sense, I think Trump won last night, honestly.

I think he made a bet not to go, that his rivals would, with his absence, clash with each other. And they did. And, look, Nikki Haley had a great night. I think S.E. wrote this. I thought she stood out among the group. Pence was much stronger, I think, than people anticipated.

But anything that creates more of a muddle among the rest of the candidates serves Trump's project. He is way ahead. And the thing that was threatened him as if somehow all the voters who are not with him coalesced around one candidate. I don't think that happened last night. Nothing advanced that.

I think DeSantis was probably weakened by a middling performance. And he's in second place, and everybody else is grabbing their share. So I think Trump was the winner last night.

BOLDUAN: Let me play actually DeSantis from this morning reacting to his own performance and why, if you say he kind of stayed in the background or didn't really -- and he wasn't even really attacked and he wasn't the focus of it.

Listen to his take and spin on it from this morning. This is SOT six, guys.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DESANTIS: I'm not here to get in a food fight. If someone came after me, I was ready to go, loaded for bear. We were going to respond and put that to bed.

But I was more interested in talking directly to the people at home, rather than kind of some of the bickering that was back and forth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: More of a statement that they didn't go after him than the fact that he was loaded for bear and ready to take them on, but they didn't?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He was certainly not the center of attention. I think he had a real sort of slack-tied performance, where I don't think he advanced his campaign, which he needed.

I'm not sure he had any fatal blows last night either.

BOLDUAN: Right. Yes.

AXELROD: Right.

CUPP: But, yes, I don't think he looked like he was the center of attention, and for good and bad. There were other centers of attention, right?

Nikki Haley, I think, was one. Vivek obviously really wanted to be one. And Mike Pence was more of one than I thought he would be. And Ron DeSantis in the middle there was really kind of lost.

AXELROD: Yes.

You know, one of the things about these debates is, people, they're not just watching your set pieces. Ron DeSantis clearly was well- rehearsed and well-prepped. And when he could deliver set pieces, he did that relatively well.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

AXELROD: When it got into the back-and-forth, when he was challenged in any way, he seemed lost.

And I think the absence of sort of spontaneity makes people question your authenticity. And that's what Haley did well. That's what Pence did well. They were more organic and in the flow.

[11:10:13]

BOLDUAN: Right.

AXELROD: And so it didn't look as if they were calculating every answer. And this is a problem DeSantis has had, I think, from the beginning.

CUPP: Yes.

AXELROD: And it was kind of underscored last night. I agree didn't make any big gaffes.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

AXELROD: His answers were fine, as he rehearsed them, but they look rehearsed.

CUPP: And he's very angry, like from the jump, right?

And I think that anger at like the moderators at one point, even, from...

BERMAN: I'm not going to raise my hand.

CUPP: Yes. We're not schoolchildren.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: That was a little off putting.

And I think, as annoying as Vivek Ramaswamy was -- and he was annoying -- I think that was in a way more authentic than DeSantis' anger. I think Vivek Ramaswamy probably lives that life in general. And I think Ron DeSantis tries to turn on his anger and turn on is his personality.

And it doesn't always come across.

SIDNER: Yes, it hasn't come across on the campaign trail either, as we have heard over and over.

I do want to ask you about the elephant in the room, if you will. Sorry. I didn't mean to make that pun, but I did. So, the crowd.

CUPP: Uh-huh.

SIDNER: Tell me about the impact that they have, because you can hear them audibly.

CUPP: Yes.

SIDNER: They were like the ninth person on stage.

CUPP: Right. And it isn't science, what you hear from the crowd, right? This is anecdotal evidence.

SIDNER: Right.

CUPP: However, if you're just going by the crowd in that room, Vivek Ramaswamy got most of the applause.

AXELROD: Yes.

SIDNER: Yes.

AXELROD: Right.

CUPP: And listen, I think Vivek is, like I said, annoying. He was intrusive. He was disrespectful. He was conspiratorial. He was obnoxious at times.

AXELROD: In other words, he was Trumpian, yes. Yes.

CUPP: In other words, all the things that MAGA loves in a candidate.

SIDNER: Yes.

AXELROD: Yes, he was Trumpian.

CUPP: And I think he is -- he sort of became Trump's heir apparent.

I think, if you're a MAGA voter you think, OK, if something bad happens to Trump, prison or something else, I could see myself voting for Vivek. I don't think they think that of Pence, Christie, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott.

I really think he kind of stepped into that role last night.

AXELROD: Yes, I mean, look, he is...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: But you think about that.

CUPP: Uh-huh.

BOLDUAN: Because he's up against how many governors and former governors? A former ambassador to the United Nations.

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: You're acting like expertise matters anymore.

BOLDUAN: A former vice president of the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: Listen, the MAGA movement is an anti-institution movement.

CUPP: Right. Yes.

AXELROD: Trump is an anti-institution candidate. So it's not surprising that Ramaswamy would appeal to that same group.

I think one of the things that is working for Trump with this Republican base -- and, by the way, that audience reflected the Republican base -- is that he...

CUPP: Yes.

AXELROD: ... doesn't care about institutions. He doesn't -- he disdains them. And Ramaswamy has adopted that. He's like a Mini Me in some ways for Trump, different style, but the same approach.

The problem he has is, Trump is there. And so how much of a well does he have to draw from?

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: Well, he also...

BOLDUAN: Go ahead.

CUPP: Sorry.

He also said he was the best president of the 21st century. So, like...

SIDNER: But, so, why is he running against him?

CUPP: So, why is he running against him?

And that's the question for all of them. When they were asked like, would you still support Donald Trump if he's convicted, six of eight hands went up. And they're running against him. I'm not sure...

AXELROD: Some more slowly than others.

CUPP: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

CUPP: There was a pause on DeSantis' part. I thought that was interesting.

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: Well, he was always checking left and right to see what everybody else was doing, which goes to the inauthenticity issues.

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: Totally.

BERMAN: They -- there were several candidates on that stage who really seem to dislike Vivek Ramaswamy.

AXELROD: Yes.

BERMAN: I mean, Mike Pence seemed to have it in for him very quickly. Chris Christie seemed to have it in for him. Nikki Haley, who is always a really cool character on the stage...

CUPP: Yes.

SIDNER: Yes.

BERMAN: ... she seemed to have it in for him.

AXELROD: Yes.

BERMAN: What is it about him that bothers...

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: Right. She had an in for him for a purpose. She wanted to burnish a message that went to Ukraine, foreign policy.

SIDNER: Right, experience.

AXELROD: Now, I will say this. I agree with her on Ukraine.

I'm not sure a lot of -- that the majority of the Republican base agrees with her on Ukraine. But she passionately brought that case against him, that he was putting a murderer and a thug ahead of a U.S. friend. And it was very -- it was very effective.

But I think what most of them resent about him is that he came out of nowhere. He's never done anything in public life. And so that's part of the anti-institutional thing. They are institutionalists.

Mike Pence is an institutionalist. He came up through the House. He was a governor. And he's looking at this guy and he's saying like, who the hell are you?

BOLDUAN: So, Terry Sullivan, he ran Marco Rubio's 2016 campaign. He was on with us just a short time ago.

And I want your take on what he said. He said: "Well, this was an amazing first debate for the 2028 Republican nomination, right, because, last night, nobody laid a glove other than the guy with 50 percent."

[11:15:00]

AXELROD: Right. Right.

BOLDUAN: "And, frankly, even more surprising is what happened to DeSantis. It was single-digit guy or -- and gal attacking single-digit guy and gal on the stage."

And he would -- the way Terry puts it is, he -- like, they did nothing to advance their cause in '24.

CUPP: I think Nikki Haley got the closest in saying like, look, he's just not popular. He's not the candidate for a general election.

I think she's just trying to inject some honesty, giving MAGA voters what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. But no one on that stage got up and said, he might be in prison. AXELROD: Yes.

CUPP: Why are we even entertaining someone who might be in prison from four different, like, indictments?

AXELROD: Well, Christie -- Christie tried to do that.

SIDNER: He tried.

AXELROD: And you saw -- you saw what happened.

SIDNER: Yes.

AXELROD: I thought she was pretty artful in the way she brought her attacks against Trump.

CUPP: Yes. Me too.

AXELROD: The question is whether she can coalesce all of the -- all of the nons into her category. And I think that's a major task.

CUPP: That's right.

Right. Well, she's got to elbow Tim Scott out first, because they are splitting.

AXELROD: Well, he helped. He helped last night.

CUPP: He did.

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: They're splitting South Carolina surrogates and money and voters and all of that.

SIDNER: I was talking to Will Hurd before he was in our studio doing an interview.

CUPP: Yes.

SIDNER: And he had a really interesting point. He said, you know, what didn't happen that everyone thought might happen is, Donald Trump did not take eyeballs away from this when he did his interview with Tucker Carlson.

CUPP: Yes.

SIDNER: And that was a loss for him. So he may have won on the stage, but this was a losing proposition for him.

CUPP: FOX -- FOX is fine. FOX is fine without even its biggest stars. We see that time after time.

Even Roger Ailes left, and FOX did better in the ratings. No one's bigger inside FOX than FOX is, including Donald Trump. And, look, does he help their ratings? Of course he does. SIDNER: Right.

CUPP: But people still tuned into this debate.

AXELROD: Yes.

What's interesting about FOX is, the way the moderator -- they didn't get to Trump until more than midway into the debate.

SIDNER: Yes, it was like an hour in.

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: And the questions they asked were -- and the questions were fairly tepid. You could have gotten a lot deeper into those questions, so they know who their constituents are as well.

SIDNER: Yes.

CUPP: Yes. Yes.

BERMAN: S.E. Cupp, David Axelrod, thank you both. Great to see you in person.

CUPP: Thank you.

BERMAN: Really appreciate it.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, guys.

AXELROD: Always good to stand with you guys.

BOLDUAN: Sitting...

SIDNER: You want a chair.

BOLDUAN: ... I'm done with you.

SIDNER: Because we can -- if you ask for it, we will get it. So...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: I don't know about that.

(CROSSTALK)

SIDNER: You ask for chairs...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Challenge accepted.

Coming for us: Security is tight. Everyone's watching for former President Donald Trump to arrive in Georgia. What we're learning about the plans to surrender at the Fulton County Jail -- coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:22:40]

SIDNER: As we have been telling you all morning, Donald Trump is expected to turn himself in at the Fulton County Jail today ahead of Friday's noon deadline.

This is the fourth criminal case being brought against the ex- president since March. Nine of his co-defendants have yet to surrender before that deadline hits.

Criminal defense attorney Caroline Po -- Polisi -- I knew I was going to do that -- Polisi -- get it right, Sidner -- joins us now.

Let's talk about the -- what has happened with Mark Meadows, because this is a significant move. The federal judge has said, look, you and Jeffrey Clark both have to face the consequences for now in Georgia. You do have to be booked into jail. You will have to go through that process.

And here's exactly what the judge wrote. It says: "The clear statutory language for removing a criminal prosecution does not support an injunction or temporary stay prohibiting DA Willis from enforcement or execution of the arrest warrant against Meadows."

They have 24 hours now to turn themselves in. What happens if they decide not to?

CAROLINE POLISI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Fani Willis actually made it abundantly clear to Mark Meadows' lawyers just exactly what would happen if he and likely Jeffrey Clark don't turn themselves in by the 12:00 p.m. deadline.

And that is, she noted she would be filing arrest warrants by 12:30, just a half-an-hour thereafter. As you noted, the federal judge in this case declined to grant those emergency requests, because the clear language in the statute doesn't permit for it. That federal removal case will continue on.

There's a hearing on Monday, an evidentiary hearing. And Fani Willis, again, in her response brief to their bids to remove this, came back really hard-hitting, noting the requirement to remove would be that these individuals were acting in their official capacity under color of law.

But Fani Willis hit back, saying, not only were they not acting in their official capacities, but, in fact, they were engaging in prohibited conduct under a different statute, the Hatch Act, which actually prevents federal officials from engaging in political activity.

SIDNER: Yes, it's going to be really interesting. We have heard some of the arguments that some people in other trials have said, oh, well, the president told me to or the president asked me to, and I was just doing my duty. We will see how those arguments all pan out in federal court. I'm going to keep you right here with us, because we have some

breaking news at this hour.

[11:25:01]

I want to go to the courthouse in Georgia, where Katelyn Polantz is currently.

Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, as we have just learned, has been subpoenaed to testify at the Monday hearing examining former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows' efforts to move the Fulton County prosecution against him to federal court, according to the court filings.

What more are you learning?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Sara, clearly, the district attorney here in the state of Georgia is pulling out all of the stops for this hearing on Monday, where they are trying to combat Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff under Trump, his effort to move his charges that they have brought against him for what happened after the election, what he was doing on behalf of Donald Trump.

He's trying to move it to federal court, and the DA does not want that to be done. The way that they are trying to combat that is they are subpoenaing people to come in for a hearing to testify under oath about what they witnessed Mark Meadows and Trump doing after the election.

The latest subpoena, quite newsworthy, is being cut to Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state, the man that Donald Trump called after the election, placed that call and asked him directly to find votes in the state of Georgia.

Now, what the DA is arguing here is that what Mark Meadows was helping with on that call, establishing that call, what Trump was doing on that call, none of that was part of the role of the presidency, the role of the federal government, part of their jobs in the administration. And, instead, it was political activity.

They're going to try and prove that at this hearing on Monday by bringing to the witness stand Brad Raffensperger. And they have also subpoenaed others to help bolster this case they're going to be making to this federal judge, others, two others, that were also listening in on that call.

So, we are going to get on display part of this case, essentially, part of what the DA's office is trying to allege.

SIDNER: Yes.

POLANTZ: We're not going to be able to see it on cameras on Monday, in the way that you can see things in state court in Georgia, but there is going to be evidence on display, testimony from one of these substantial witnesses to what Trump was doing after the election. SIDNER: Yes, Katelyn Polantz, thank you. I know you will be there

listening to those details and bringing those to us as soon as they become available on Monday.

I want to go back to -- and thank you so much for your reporting.

I want to go back to Caroline Polisi.

You heard the new reporting there that Brad Raffensperger is going -- has been -- has been subpoenaed. How much of the case will this sort of unveil to the public, but also to the defense team of all 19 people who are charged in this case in Georgia?

POLISI: Yes, it's an it's an interesting development, because, while this evidentiary hearing on Monday specifically only pertains to this one question of removal, it's a bit of a chicken-or-the egg issue, in that you will get a preview to the defense of the underlying merits of the whole case in general.

We all remember that infamous call to Brad Raffensperger where President Trump asked him to just find 11,780 votes. And the issue here is, Meadows was intricately involved in that call. Again, Fani Willis previewed. We sort of knew that Raffensperger was going to be called, but now it's an official word.

SIDNER: It's official.

POLISI: But she previewed this in that -- her argument, again, saying, not only was this not conduct engaged in as the purpose of the president's chief of staff and official duties, but it was actually outside of his purview in the realm of politics, obviously, the point being to influence the election results in the state of Georgia.

(CROSSTALK)

SIDNER: The president can ask you to do things.

POLISI: Yes.

SIDNER: But if he asks you to break the law, and you do it...

POLISI: Exactly.

SIDNER: ... then you can be charged in the case, I think, is the thinking of Fani Willis.

POLISI: Correct.

SIDNER: Thank you so much, Caroline Polisi. This was a really interesting interview, because of the breaking news as well that we just had.

POLISI: Yes.

SIDNER: All right, let's go send it over to Kate. BOLDUAN: Coming up for us: Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin reportedly

killed in a plane crash. This is now two months after he led the failed rebellion against Vladimir Putin.

The Kremlin has been silent the now almost 24 hours since the crash -- more details coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:30:00]