Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Justices Thomas, Alito Release 2022 Financial Forms; At Least 74 Killed In Building Fire, Dozens Injured In South Africa; HHS Official Seeks To Ease Marijuana Restrictions. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired August 31, 2023 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:32:43]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Supreme Court Justices Samual Alito and Clarence Thomas have released their 2022 financial disclosure statements.

Both have been accused of ethics violations and a lack of transparency involving failure to report luxury trips and other personal transactions paid for, in some cases, by wealthy friends.

CNN's Supreme Court analyst, Joan Biskupic, has reviewed both of the justices' filings.

And, Joan, with particular attention to Clarence Thomas's filings here, what are the details of this.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: That's right. Earlier in the spring, ProPublica revealed many trips he had taken with Harlan Crow, the Republican billionaire, to fancy places.

This is the first time in years that Clarence Thomas is acknowledging that. He's acknowledging two sets of trips on the dime of Harlan Crow to Dallas and also acknowledging he went to his private resort, beautiful place, up in the Adirondacks for summer last year.

He is also catching up with something he did in 2014 when Harlan Crow purchased properties of the Thomas family down in Savannah, Georgia. He's putting that on record, too.

Now --

(CROSSTALK)

BISKUPIC: -- this all takes place against the backdrop of the court not having a formal ethics code, having issues with lack of transparency, and a lot more public scrutiny on the justices' off- bench activities.

SCIUTTO: OK. So oftentimes, in cases like this, whether it's involving justices or lawmakers, one of the defenses will be, you know, flimsy or not, will be, well, everyone does this kind of thing to some degree. Is Thomas taking unusual liberties in terms of the kinds of gifts and

value of the gifts he accepted?

BISKUPIC: OK. First, let's tell people what Clarence Thomas' lawyer said here. First of all, he said that this is all inadvertent, that any kind of mistakes that were not reported before was inadvertent.

And he put out a statement that said that "The attacks on Justice Thomas are nothing less than ridiculous and dangerous and they set a terrible precedent for blood sport, political blood sport, through federal ethics filings."

Now so they're saying that this is all part of the controversy.

But to your question of, is what Clarence Thomas doing different? Yes, he has a very tight relationship with a single person, Harlan Crow.

Although, as ProPublica demonstrated last April, he's gotten lots of great trips and gifts from other big GOP donors.

[13:35:09]

The other justices have not done it to the extent that Clarence Thomas has done it. And, for the most part, have disclosed it.

What's different here is that Clarence Thomas is saying, he's disclosing it himself. He didn't believe he had any kind of rules or regulations hanging over him to disclose before.

SCIUTTO: Right.

BISKUPIC: So there is a difference, Jim, although he's saying it was inadvertent.

SCIUTTO: Right. And with the "blood sport" comment, we should note that there's been a whole host of federal agencies that have rules. At the State Department, you can't take gifts over $100. So there are rules in other places that the court does not have.

So in light of this and declining confidence in the court, for a host of reasons we should note, including disagreement with decisions, is there a push, any real momentum towards establishing standards, fixed standards for the Supreme Court?

BISKUPIC: There's definitely a momentum among Senate Democrats, congressional Democrats to try to pass legislation to get the court to formalize some of these rules.

That legislation is probably not going anywhere with the political makeup of the Congress right now.

But the justices themselves, with low public approval ratings, responding to some of these media reports, responding to the congressional push, that they are actually discussing it.

This summer, when they left for their recess, they were at a stalemate but Chief Justice John Roberts would like to get unanimity on rules.

But Justice Thomas and Alito are two that feel like they're already abiding by the rules and that things don't need to be formalized.

SCIUTTO: Well, one obvious point, if there were rules, they would apply to all of the justices, whether conservative or liberal.

BISKUPIC: That's right. That's right.

SCIUTTO: That would be the way it would be.

Joan Biskupic, thanks so much.

BISKUPIC: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Rescue-and-recovery efforts are under way in South Africa where 73 people are dead, dozens more injured after a fire burns through a building full of families overnight. We're going to take you there.

Plus, the controversial search-and-seizure of equipment at a Kansas newspaper has spawned a federal lawsuit. We'll have new details next on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:41:38]

KEILAR: Right now, there is a frantic search under way for survivors of a deadly fire in the biggest city in South Africa.

Officials say at least 74 people are dead and that includes many children, and dozens of others who are injured as well after the fire ripped through a fire-story building in Johannesburg overnight.

CNN's senior international correspondent, David McKenzie, is near the scene of the tragedy.

David, this is awful. Tell us how this started and tell us about this building.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, it is awful. And at least a dozen children are amongst those dead, burned in that inferno that started in the early hours of the morning.

Many people struggled to get out. At least one witness told us there were areas of the building that were locked off, preventing people from getting out.

I spoke to one man who managed to survive, just barely. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WISEMAN MPAPA, SURVIVOR OF JOHANNESBURG FIRE: People, they make noise. Fire, fire, fire. I wake up. I see the fire. When I enter, I come back to my room.

Then, I broke the window. I broke the window. (INAUDIBLE). The smoke was coming for me. Yes. After that, I got pulled out. Then, from there, I don't know anything from now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKENZIE: He blacked out and then came to. Three of his family members are still missing. Like many in that building, hundreds of families, at least, he is a migrant from another part of the continent.

This building, extraordinary as it sounds, Brianna, was highjacked, taken over by gangsters, owned by the city of Johannesburg, but it was taken over and then rented out to poor migrants who could only afford this kind of accommodation.

Just a short time ago, the South African president was on the scene. He said this is a wake-up call for the country to deal with these illegal takeovers of buildings.

I mean, the skyline behind me that you see, many buildings in downtown Johannesburg are taken over like this. It speaks to the levels of crime in this country and the lack of public services for the most poor, who ended up, many of them, dying overnight -- Brianna?

KEILAR: And, David, that's the thing about a building like this. There are often huge safety problems. And this is just one of many, many of these kinds of buildings.

MCKENZIE: Oh, that's right. They are investigating the cause of this fire.

There are people who were crammed into buildings, into apartment, many at a time. Any number of causes could be for this terrible inferno. But they are investigating.

And it's simply shocking to South Africa, and I think this whole region, to see what unfolded.

It's now officially a recovery operation. The police are now taking over, and that building is deemed unsafe to even step inside -- Brianna?

KEILAR: Shocking to South Africa, shocking to the world. Seventy-four people dead, and that number could rise.

David McKenzie, live for us from South Africa, thank you.

[13:45:02]

Jim?

SCIUTTO: So sad to see that there.

Now to some of the other headlines we are watching this hour. The U.S. envoy to Japan is slamming China's response to the Fukushima

water release, calling China's ban on Japanese seafood, quote, "hypocritical."

China imposed the ban earlier this week after Japan's Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant began releasing very slowly treated wastewater into the ocean. Japanese officials insist that water is safe.

Here in the U.S., a new deadline in the government's case against Hunter Biden after the broken plea agreement. A federal judge is now ordering both sides to submit an update by Wednesday. The same judge refused to accept their initial deal, calling it outside the norm.

And a reporter involved in the controversial police raid on a newspaper in Kansas is filing a federal lawsuit against the police department. "Marion County Record" reporter, Deb Gruver, says the department and its chief violated her First and Fourth Amendment rights.

Police say the raid was part of an investigation into whether government records had been obtained illegally. But the county prosecutor has since withdrawn that warrant, citing insufficient evidence.

Quite an interesting case there, Brianna.

KEILAR: Opening their minds. The federal government could change course on marijuana with a major rethink on how it regulates pot.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:51:03]

KEILAR: Some breaking news into CNN. We've learned that former President Trump's legal team has formally asked a judge to sever his case from his co-defendants in Fulton County, Georgia. This is according to a new court filing.

Trump's attorneys say he will not have, quote, "sufficient time," unquote, to prepare the case for trial by October 23rd.

They also say forcing that trial date would, quote, "violate President Trump's federal and state constitutional rights to a fair trial and due process of law."

We'll have much more on this at the top of the hour.

Jim?

SCIUTTO: The Biden administration is now pushing for a major shift in policy on marijuana. HHS Secretary Xavier Becerra confirmed his department is asking the DEA to reclassify marijuana to a less restrictive category of drug.

Right now, marijuana is on the Schedule 1 list, the most restrictive. It includes drugs such as heroin and LSD. Health and Human Services wants to move marijuana to Schedule 3. That would put it alongside Tylenol with Codeine, anabolic steroids.

Secretary Becerra said he was following a directive from the president.

Let's speak with Paul Armentano. He's the deputy director of NORML, which is a nonprofit lobbying group that has pushed for the full legalization of marijuana since the 1970s. He also wrote the book "Marijuana Is Safer, So Why Are We Driving People to Drink?"

Good to have you on, sir. Thanks so much for joining us today.

First, I want to ask a question about the effect of this. Recreational pot is legal in 23 states. It's legal for medicinal use in 38 states. What would be the practical effect of a natural move designating marijuana to a less restrictive class of drugs?

PAUL ARMENTANO, CANNABIS ACTIVIST & NORML DEPUTY DIRECTOR & AUTHOR: Well, on the one hand, it's refreshing some 80 years after cannabis was initially removed from pharmacies in the United States, that the federal government is once again finally recognizing its medical utility.

That said, as a matter of policy, this proposed change by the Biden administration does little to address the widening divide between state legal marijuana laws and federal law.

In fact, every state legalization law you just mentioned that is currently in conflict with federal marijuana laws today, would remain in conflict with federal law going forward when and if the administration goes through with the Schedule 3 classification.

SCIUTTO: I understand that difference between state and federal laws. But there are dangers here. A 2021 study found that cannabis use disorder is on the rise.

A 2020 analysis found that 22 percent of users would develop an addiction during their lifetime. And that rate is higher for younger people who smoked weekly or every day. About 33 percent.

I wonder, why downgrade marijuana's classification when we are seeing evidence of some risks for some people?

ARMENTANO: Look, marijuana is here to stay. It's part of our society. That's why states have moved in this direction, to regulate cannabis accordingly.

If criminalizing and prohibiting cannabis worked, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation right now. The federal government would be having these conversations right now.

The reality is, is that cannabis is not innocuous. That is why it ought to be regulated accordingly.

Any risks from cannabis are best mitigated by a policy of legalization, regulation and education. Those risks are only compounded and exacerbated by a policy of prohibition, stigmatization and criminalization.

SCIUTTO: I understand. But there is a difference between criminalization and greatly widening access. And I do understand that you actually propose a de-scheduling of marijuana, which would remove it from the Controlled Substances Act.

[13:54:59]

I guess I just wonder, as this is moving -- it's moving very quickly in some places and now this would be a national step -- is it possible it's moving too quickly and we're doing so without being conscious of the risks?

ARMENTANO: Absolutely not. We've had prohibition in this country for over a century. The American public knows it doesn't work. Most politicians know that it doesn't work.

Look, the reason that we call for removing cannabis from the Controlled Substances Act altogether is so states have the flexibility to regulate cannabis as they see fit.

Tobacco and alcohol are not in the Controlled Substances Act. Those are substances that are well recognized that pose far more greater hazards to health than cannabis. We should at least treat marijuana equally.

SCIUTTO: Paul Armentano, interesting conversation. Thanks so much for joining us.

ARMENTANO: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Brianna?

KEILAR: Ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, Trump's legal team is asking to sever his case from his co-defendants who want a speedy trial in Georgia. We're following the very latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)