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Sentencing Of Proud Boys Members Involved In The Capitol Attack; Former Trump Chief Of Staff Mark Meadows Pleading Not Guilty To Election Interference Charges; Ongoing Investigations Into Election Fraud Claims And Fundraising; Senator Tommy Tuberville's Block On Military Promotions; Concerns About Russia-North Korea Cooperation On Arms Deals And Technology Exchanges; Senator Mitch McConnell's Health Update; And The Senate's Upcoming Agenda, Which Includes Averting A Government Shutdown; Additionally, The Text Highlights Donald Trump's Enduring Support Among Republicans Despite Legal Challenges And Concerns About Foreign Involvement In The Ukraine Conflict; Specifically North Korea's Potential Role In Aiding Russia. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired September 05, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:50]

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, the judge, Timothy Kelly, has given far under what prosecutors have been asking for. This is the fifth member of the Proud Boys. He's one of four of them who have been convicted of seditious conspiracy. And Enrique Tarrio wasn't actually at the Capitol on that day. He'd been arrested just before January 6th and before the crowd gathered that day, in part because he had weapons on him and he was involved in a previous altercation, stealing a sign at a church right here in the District of Columbia. So, for that reason, he wasn't here.

But prosecutors say he was in touch with members of the group who were here on the ground and who formed really the point of the spear to get the crowd, the mob, into the Capitol that day, breaking windows and so on. Right now, the judge is gavelling the hearing to a start. And so, we're waiting to see what he decides here. As you pointed out, the members of the Proud Boys, there's four of them who have already been sentenced in the last few days. Ethan Nordean got 18 years. Joseph Biggs got 17 years. Zachary Rehl, 15 years. And a lower-level member of the group, Dominic Pezzolla, got 10 years.

We're expecting Tarrio, because of his leadership role, to get a lot more than that. Now, prosecutors are making the point, Jim, that what the Proud Boys did that day was not just cause violence or lead some of the violence. They also stole from Americans the peaceful transfer of power, something the judge has already emphasized in a number of the sentencing. So, the hearing is about to get underway in court, and we'll see what he decides, Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Understood. So, the prosecutors are asking for 33 years. Are there guidelines, is there a range for seditious conspiracy that the judge uses as a guide here or has to decide within that range, or does he have flexibility?

PEREZ: He has a lot of flexibility, and one of the reasons why we've seen such a variation and a variance, really, from what prosecutors have been asking for is that the judge, Timothy Kelly, has declined to use the terrorism enhancement, which is something prosecutors have been asking for. What he's saying is, look, what happened that day is very, very serious. He's not detracting from any of that, but he doesn't believe it rises to the level of terrorism, and so that's one of the reasons why you've seen sentences come in well below what prosecutors have been asking for, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Judges always consider a host of mitigating or aggravating circumstances. We'll see what that ultimate decision is. Evan Perez, outside the court, thanks so much.

SANCHEZ: A key Trump ally has just pleaded not guilty. Former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows entered his plea today in Fulton County, Georgia, on charges tied to 2020 election interference. He's still trying to get those state charges moved to federal court, though. That's a ruling that could be imminent. And last hour, the final remaining plea from a co-defendant was filed. That means that all 19, Trump included, have pleaded not guilty. CNN's Sara Murray is tracking all of this for us. So, Sara, we know we're awaiting this decision by a judge on whether Meadows can move his case to federal court, but he does file a plea of not guilty.

[14:05:09]

SARA MURRAY, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right. It's a little bit of housekeeping, right, for all of these 19 defendants now have formally entered their pleas of not guilty. They've waived their arraignments. So, you know what once looked like it would be a big day in court on Wednesday with all of these folks parading in and appearing before a judge and also appearing before cameras now is not going to happen since they've all waived their arraignments.

They no longer are going to have to show up in Fulton County Superior Court in person. And so, this now gets us to sort of the next phase of what's about to happen. For Mark Meadows, that's an open question of whether this is a case that's going to proceed in state court or in federal court. As you pointed out, he's been arguing that everything he did, he did as part of his role as White House chief of staff. And so, his case should proceed in federal court. And we're waiting to see what a judge has to say about that. And the other people who are waiting to see what happens in that is the Trump team. I mean, we fully expect that they are going to try to make an effort to move Donald Trump's case to federal court. But they may just be biding their time waiting to see how this plays out for Mark Meadows, Boris.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah. And if it succeeds for Mark Meadows, we could see all sorts of other motions coming from an array of defense teams. Right. So, since there's not going to be this huge arraignment tomorrow, does it mean that the cases will then move faster?

MURRAY: I think what we're going to see are some organizational moves by the judge to try to determine who exactly wants to move ahead under this speedy trial rule where Ken Chesbrough is moving ahead to trial in October of 2023. Sidney Powell has said she wants to be on a speedy trial schedule, but they don't want to be on trial together.

So, the judge is going to have to sort out how he wants to deal with that. And then he's going to have to sift through the people who've said they definitely do not want to go to trial in October of this year. That includes former President Donald Trump. And if he is going to try to move forward with trying them all together at a later date. So, there's a lot for this judge to sort through as he tries to sort of herd these 19 defendants toward a potential trial date, Boris.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Herding is the right word to use for 19 co- defendants. Sara Murray, thank you so much. Brianna.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Now to the federal election interference case. This is a CNN exclusive. The special counsel is now focusing on how Trump allies use bogus election fraud claims to raise money and whether that money funded breaches of voting equipment in multiple battleground states. Former Trump lawyer Sidney Powell could be at the heart of all of this. Sources saying that Jack Smith's team is asking questions about her role now. And Powell, of course, was a major promoter of false election claims and is a co-defendant in the sweeping Georgia case. CNN's Zachary Cohen helped break this story. Zach, tell us what you found.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Brianna, we're getting indications that this investigation is expanding and expanding in a way that maybe means that some of these unindicted co- conspirators that were mentioned in Jack Smith's indictment of Donald Trump about a month ago, they could still face legal jeopardy here. You know, one in particular, Sidney Powell, my colleague and I, or Paula Reid and I, through our sources know that at least two witnesses who have been interviewed by the special counsel since the indictment of Trump, that's been again, about a couple of weeks.

They've been asked specifically about Sidney Powell and her nonprofit Defending the Republic. And they want to know about money that was raised by Sidney Powell and this group, and then was ultimately spent to try to find evidence of voter fraud, including by breaching these voting systems in multiple states. We've seen invoices that show Defending the Republic funded these efforts in multiple states, not just Georgia, but places like Michigan, places like Pennsylvania. So, look, Jack Smith is looking into a new line of inquiry here. He's, even though Trump's already indicted, we are now seeing some of those other individuals who were key players potentially getting looked at a little bit more closely.

KEILAR: And so a reminder here, right, we're seeing these people who are connected to Sidney Powell who have been charged in Michigan and Georgia so far. They're also connected to other efforts that we have seen to breach voting machines in other states. I think people forget about this part of the scheme. And I wonder, will Jack Smith, and how far down is he going to go, do you think?

COHEN: It's interesting because until this point, we haven't really gotten a clear indication that federal authorities, the FBI and the special counsel were really aggressively investigating these voting system breaches. And even now it looks like they're looking at the breaches through the context of the money behind them, right? Who was funding them, who was paying for them and where did that money come from? But at the state level, we've seen these same group of individuals pop up time and time again, right?

In Arizona, in Michigan, Sidney Powell's name comes up repeatedly and so do a few others that have come up in Georgia. So, we're seeing the same names and we've seen some of these folks get indicted in other places. One, Stephanie Lambert was indicted in Michigan just a few weeks ago and now her name is popping up in Pennsylvania. So, it's really unclear how Jack Smith is fitting this into the broader context of his investigation. But it is interesting that he's looking at the money trail behind this effort to get access to voting systems.

KEILAR: It reminds me of that game that you played when you're little, where you're connecting words, but you're seeing over and over these people are getting connected to different states. Zach Cohen, great reporting by you and Paula. Thank you so much.

[14:10:11]

And Bradley Moss, he is a national security attorney. He's also a partner in the law office of Mark Zaid. So, Bradley, Sidney Powell was not indicted by Jack Smith, but she is on indicted co-conspirator three. And this grand jury runs until September 15th. Of course, it could be extended. Do you think that we see her becoming an indicted co-conspirator?

BRADLEY MOSS, NATIONAL SECURITY ATTORNEY: From the looks of it, yeah, I think there is going to be another indictment brought by Jack Smith with respect to at least Sidney Powell. Possibly also John Eastman and Jeffrey Clark, the ones we've all been expecting who were other unindicted co-conspirators. And part of the reason is those are the cleanest and most easily made cases. For Sidney Powell, this is gonna be about mail and wire fraud tied to the breaches of various election systems, not just in Georgia, but in multiple states that she and her organization were tied to.

We know that she's already facing civil lawsuits. She's obviously facing a potential very speedy trial in Georgia. She has a lot of incentive if indicted in the federal case to try to find a way to turn on those she was conspiring with, according to the authorities. She has a lot of reasons to try to strike a deal if she is faced with a federal indictment on top of all the rest of this.

KEILAR: What happens? I mean, you look, there are already these state level charges concerning these voting machine breaches in Michigan and then this large RICO case in Georgia. How does this interact with the federal case? Could those help or hinder a federal case?

MOSS: Yeah, so this is where it's gonna get a kind of messy and complicated because there's all these different cases going on between what's going on already in Fulton County. We know there's an investigation in Arizona that's ongoing. We know that there was the indictment side of Michigan. People are gonna start facing a point, Sidney Powell's not the only one, where they're either going to start introducing evidence to try to defend themselves, or they have to try to start making deals to try to get themselves out of this because eventually they're gonna either start facing convictions in one case, it's gonna hurt them in others, or they're gonna have to start addressing this on the stand if they try to defend themselves and potentially incriminate themselves maybe out of the state level, but at a federal level. This is where it's gonna get messy. It's gonna be a very wild 12 months and more so towards the election. There's gonna be a lot of these players who either get convicted or are likely gonna strike plea deals as we get closer to Donald Trump's trial.

KEILAR: What about Sidney Powell? Because when you think back to her testimony before the January 6th select committee, she's such a true believer, or she certainly was still even then, even as I think some people had sort of had a change of heart or had felt in a way that they were used in the process of all of this. She was a true believer there. Do you think there's any possibility that she could flip?

MOSS: I certainly think so if there's a means to try to minimize any criminal penalty, mind you. Her legal career is already in serious jeopardy. She's facing the civil lawsuits from Dominion and Smartmatic. She's already got that problem from a civil and financial side point, but she's got Georgia. Now she's possibly gonna face federal charges.

She's at that age where she doesn't wanna spend her glory years sitting in a prison, whether state or federal level. She's gonna start looking at it as, how do I save myself here? Here's the exposure I'm facing. What kind of deal can I make? And what kind of testimony can I provide that would be of use to law enforcement authorities? Not just against her other co-defendants, but obviously Donald Trump in particular.

KEILAR: Yeah, we'll have to see if that's what happens. Bradley Moss, thank you so much.

MOSS: Absolutely.

KEILAR: Boris.

SANCHEZ: So, we've got some new CNN polling to share with you that shows Donald Trump is holding strong among his Republican supporters, even gaining ground despite his fourth indictment, but that may not be the case with the general electorate. Here's CNN political director, David Chalian, to walk us through the numbers. So, David, break them down.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, let's just take a look at the state of the race. As you noted, his support is getting stronger. Donald Trump is in a dominant position in this race. It's basically a one-man race right now. This is a national snapshot. Obviously, we nominate state by state, but 52% of Republican and Republican-leaning independents support Trump, that's a majority. Ron DeSantis is down at 18%. Everyone else is in single digits here. Obviously, you could add up the whole field not named Trump and Trump would still win the contest there if the election were today.

SANCHEZ: It doesn't make up that enormous gap. Now, what does the polling say about Republicans' concerns over his indictments?

CHALIAN: This is such an interesting finding in the poll, Boris. So, this is just among the Republican and Republican-leaning independents, but we split them here for reaction, whether they are Trump supporters or they're supporting someone else in the race. So, we said, hey, might the charges against Trump negatively affect his ability to win in 2024? A third of Trump supporters say yes, it might, but a majority of the Republican-supporting candidates not named Trump are concerned that it impacts the electability.

[14:15:14]

Ability to be an effective president, only 15% of Trump supporters believe that that will impact negatively, but a majority of those supporting elsewhere. Same thing here, 16% say ability to serve another full term would be negatively impacted. That's among Trump supporters. 46% supporting other candidates say that it will have that. So, here's the thing, there's real concern if you're a Republican not supporting Trump, and yet his opponents aren't really making the case on the indictments. We asked about whether any of these charges should disqualify Trump from the presidency.

This is overall, this is the overall US population, right? 51% say he should be disqualified on the January 6th charges, 48% on efforts to overturn the 2020 election, less so on the classified documents and the hush money case. But on that 2020, when you look at just Republicans, you see what a different place we're in. Only 13% of Republicans, Boris, think the charges in the 2020 election case are disqualifying, that compares to 48% overall.

SANCHEZ: So, let's look at the general electorate then. How are these indictments affecting him there?

CHALIAN: Well, in terms of US adults overall, we checked in on Trump's favourability. Since June, you see he has a slight uptick in his favourable with Republicans. He's at 75% favourable. He even has a slight uptick with independents since June, 23% to 26%, though that is within the margin of error here. And Democrats, he's saying roughly the same. He is still largely popular with Republicans, unpopular with independents and obviously Democrats.

SANCHEZ: Really stunning though. I mean, there's improvement at every level from Republicans, independents, even Democrats.

CHALIAN: Yeah.

SANCHEZ: Fascinating, David Chalian, thank you so much.

CHALIAN: Sure.

SANCHEZ: Jim.

SCIUTTO: Top military leaders are urging Senator Tommy Tuberville to end his months-long block on military promotions for the sake of national security. We're gonna have more on that just ahead. Plus, Cuba says it has uncovered a human trafficking network that is sending Cubans to fight for Russia in Ukraine. And Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell is returning to the Hill after freezing in front of the cameras twice this summer. Next, what his office is saying about his health. You are watching CNN News Central, and we'll be right back.

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[14:21:18]

SCIUTTO: Today, new warnings over growing cooperation between Russia and North Korea. U.S. officials say North Korean leader Kim Jong Un may soon travel to Russia to meet the Russian leader Vladimir Putin. And the talks between the two countries over an arms deal are, quote, "actively advancing." This follows a visit by Russian defence minister Sergei Shoigu to North Korea in July, in which the U.S. says that Shoigu tried to convince the North Korean regime to sell artillery ammunition to Moscow for its war in Ukraine.

At the same time, the White House warns that North Korea is also seeking key technologies in return from Russia, such as advanced satellite and nuclear-powered submarine capabilities. Joining me now, Steve Hall, former CIA chief of Russia operations. Steve, good to have you. Big picture here just for a moment. What does it say that Vladimir Putin has to reach out to not one but two much smaller nations, Iran first, now North Korea, for help to simply keep, you know, the artillery pieces firing in Ukraine?

STEVE HALL, FORMER CIA CHIEF OF RUSSIA OPERATIONS: Yeah, Jim, the way you put the question is exactly right. Why, in God's name, would Russia need to reach out to these very small and usually poor countries to try to bolster their own war capability inside of Ukraine? I mean, if you had asked me a couple of years ago, do you see Russia, do you see Putin in the Kremlin reaching out to somebody like North Korea and saying, hey, please help us with this war?

I mean, that's a definite sign of weakness and it's a definite sign of how hard up basically the Russians are with regard to ammunition and probably other critical components, too. And as you mentioned in the intro there, you know, part of the deal is not just North Korea doing this because they're nice to Russia. They're going to demand something in return. The problem is that the stuff that they're demanding, Russia needs that, too. They need all of their high tech. They need all of all of the things that North Korea is asking for. So, it's going to be hard to provide it all.

SCIUTTO: Hold that thought on what they get in return, because this is also a concern with Iran, but with China. And as you know, there's been a great deal of concern from this administration that China was going to provide military lethal military aid to Russia. Does the fact that Russia is depending on Iranian and now North Korean support, is that an indicator to you that China is not playing ball in terms of that support? HALL: Yeah, I think the problem with China is is they understand that

if you look sort of across the geopolitical landscape right now, you've got these sorts of rogue nations, you've got North Korea, you've got Iran. Increasingly, Russia and China is in an interesting position because, of course, China is a huge economy. You know, it's a huge country. It really is, in many ways, a superpower, the superpower that Russia no longer is. But they don't want to burn their bridges because they have so many economic ties to the West, which the Chinese economy is dependent upon. So, it's easier for North Korea, who really doesn't have anything to lose because they have so little relations with anybody that they don't have much to lose in this. But the Chinese do, and that might be why they're holding back.

SCIUTTO: So, with Iran, the quid pro quo from Iran was missile technology. That's a problem in the Middle East in terms of both U.S. allies there and just general stability. North Korea here asking for nuclear submarine technology. That's a big deal. And I wonder if you could describe to folks at home not watching this so closely what that means in terms of proliferation of these sorts of weapon systems.

HALL: Well, what it means is sort of what we've always known about North Korea, which is they aspire to being a nuclear power. We've seen all of the missile tests. We've seen the intelligence, the American intelligence community's assessment that they have enough, you know, highly enriched uranium and plutonium fissile material to be able to at least begin and probably even actually construct a bomb.

[14:25:12]

So, if they want to add a submarine capability to that, that is scarier. But these right now are aspirations. The ability of the North Koreans to pull this off or the Iranians to pull something like this off is still, it's a hard thing for them to do. The Iranians, I think, a little closer on the nuclear side. The North Koreans continue to have problems with that sort of thing.

SCIUTTO: And of course, a submarine gets closer to a potential enemy shoreline, so it's less warning time. Something to watch very closely. Steve Hall, thanks so much as always.

HALL: Sure.

SCIUTTO: Brianna.

KEILAR: In a highly unusual, very public rebuke, three of the nation's top military officials are warning that Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville's block of more than 300 military promotions is, quote, "putting our national security at risk." The secretaries of the Navy, Army, and the Air Force co-authored an op-ed in the Washington Post, and they write, quote, "we know officers who have incurred significant unforeseen expenses and are facing genuine financial stress because they have had to relocate their families or unexpectedly maintain two residences.

Military spouses who have worked to build careers of their own are unable to look for jobs because they don't know when or if they will move. Children haven't known where they will go to school, which is particularly hard given how frequently military children change schools already." They end the op-ed writing, "we believe that the vast majority of senators and of Americans across the political spectrum recognize the stakes of this moment and the dangers of politicizing our military leaders. It is time to lift this dangerous hold and confirm our senior military leaders." CNN's Manu Raju is joining us now live from Capitol Hill. That is a scathing rebuke. Do you think that this could change Tuberville's mind at all?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, at the moment, he is showing no signs of relenting. Remember, Tommy Tuberville has been demanding for months that the Pentagon scrap its policy, post- roll policy, and providing reimbursements for service members who travel out of states for the procedure. He wants that gone completely or a vote on the Senate floor to essentially codify it, and assuming that they had a vote on the floor, that would fail, which is why the Democrats don't wanna agree and go down that route.

So, this standoff has led to Tuberville doing what the right of any individual senator does, has, which is to place a hold on a nomination. Now, there are ways around a senator's hold. The Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer could schedule a vote on each of these individual nominations, but that takes time. That eats up floor time, and Schumer has made clear he has no desire to give in to Tuberville's demands, instead believing that the pressure campaign will only mount and that Tuberville ultimately will relent, and if once the senator drops his objection, these nominees could be confirmed rather quickly, but some key ones are held up as well, including potentially the new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, someone who needs to be confirmed by the end of September.

Otherwise, that could be vacancy in that extremely critical post, but Tuberville says that he is of the belief that this is not putting the national security at risk. He says he has had conversations with other people in the military who have not raised this concern, and he believes if Chuck Schumer wants to confirm these individual nominees, they can move one by one, so the staring contest is only bound to intensify. The only thing at the moment, Brianna, some believe could change the calculus if pressure among Republicans really intensifies.

We've heard some Republicans raise concerns, including Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, but very few of them have leaned on Tuberville, and Brianna, when I've asked Tuberville in the past, that would be enough to change his mind if Republicans began to ration up their pressure campaign, he said no.

KEILAR: Manu, really quickly before I let you go, how long would it take to go one by one in the Senate and get these folks confirmed?

RAJU: It could take weeks or up to months, and the people, like Tuberville, I've put that to Tuberville as well, but he said if the Senate wanted to confirm these, we could stay in over recess. If they just had a five-week recess, we could stay in over the weekends too and get some of these critical nominees confirmed, but the Senate Majority Leader does not want to give in to that kind of demand from one individual senator, which is why he's pushing them to relax. KEILAR: All right, standoff continues. Monty Raju, live for us on

Capitol Hill, Boris.

SANCHEZ: So, recess is over, with lawmakers headed back to Capitol Hill, and in just a few minutes, the Senate will return to session. There are a number of items on its must-do shortlist, including avoiding a government shutdown in less than four weeks, but all eyes are going to be on Minority Leader Mitch McConnell after two medical incidents this summer where he froze up in front of cameras, raising questions about his age and his ability to lead his party. Today, a Capitol doctor released an update on McConnell's health. So, for that, let's take you to Capitol Hill with CNN's Melanie Zanona. So, Melanie, bring us up to speed on what we heard from the Senate.