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Biden & Trump Visit Michigan This Week To Meet Union Workers; Government Heading For Shutdown Amid House GOP Infighting; Menendez Rejects Calls To Resign After Bribery Charges. Aired 3-3:30 ET

Aired September 25, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It does not appear he thinks to have much competition for the GOP nomination.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, and part of what we're seeing this week is a lot of visits to early voting states and we're expecting that in the next couple of weeks as well. These are gearing up this campaign, it's not just or the general election, which is what we've been talking a lot about with this trip to Michigan.

But South Carolina, Iowa, New Hampshire, these are all trips that he's doing to shore up that support in those early voting states just because he is leading and it's a comfortable lead in those states, it's a comfortable lead in those nationwide polls, his team is very aware of the fact that when these conservatives are polled, even if they say that they support Donald Trump, many of them are still interested in alternative options. They're out here now really hitting the pavement, trying to get support, trying to rally up the team here, those people within the states.

The other thing I want to point here is, of course, what you mentioned about Michigan, talking about general versus the primary. He is clearly esteemed looking towards the general election with this stop in Michigan and particularly looking towards these union workers.

I am told that when he gives his primetime remarks just outside of Detroit, it will be to current and former union members as well as UAW workers who are currently striking and their families.

And the thing to notice here is that the UAW has not endorsed in this race. Of course, in 2020, they endorsed Joe Biden. They have not yet endorsed in 2024. Donald Trump has been boasting about this on Truth Social. His team believes that while he has had complications with unions in the past, that he can sell himself as pro-worker, essentially turn on the Biden administration on their green plans, their electric vehicle plans, say that those are going to kill jobs and then say that Donald Trump himself is pro-worker.

Now, whether or not that will work, of course, remains to be seen. But this is a group of people that in a general election, Trump does believe he can siphon votes off of. BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Kristen, you're a pro. If it is that loud in her microphone, I can only imagine how loud it is in real life. We've been there and we know.

Jeff Zeleny, it's interesting. We see there Trump is in South Carolina. He's got a couple of contenders, Nikki Haley and Tim Scott, who are from South Carolina.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORREPONDENT: Exactly. And Nikki Haley, the former governor of South Carolina and who served as U.N. ambassador in the Trump administration, she's been really gaining some ground. And she is now in second place in most South Carolina polls. She's been on the rise a little bit.

So as Kristen was saying there, yes, the former president has his eye on the long-term, hoping to have a rematch with President Biden, but he has to win the primary first. And so there was a sense of, are they taking things for granted too much.

But just the travel schedule in the last week or so, they're trying to knock down that idea by being in South Carolina today, going to Iowa on Saturday. He's trying to essentially stop the potential rise of anyone.

But the Michigan trip is so interesting because in 2016, of course, the former president won Michigan. He beat Hillary Clinton there in 2020. He lost by more than 120,000 votes and even though rank and file union members, some supported him, exit polls show that he didn't fare nearly as well as Joe Biden did on union members.

That's why this is so fascinating tomorrow, the visit from President Biden to Michigan and then on Wednesday, a year from now, depending what deal they get, God forbid the strike will be over, is this going to be a central piece of the map or is Michigan sort of turning blue as we saw in the midterms last year.

So that's what happens tomorrow and Wednesday. It's actually really pretty interesting. And, of course, whatever type of resolution to the strike happens.

KEILAR: Yeah. Michigan's been such an interesting place. I mean, I remember Bernie Sanders winning in the primaries there unexpectedly. It was so bizarre. It's just been a very ...

ZELENY: Which helped contribute to Hillary Clinton's defeat as you and I well know we covered.

KEILAR: That's right. It's just been such an interesting place that has been kind of unconventional for itself.

And to that point, Kayla Tausche, you have President Biden. He's going to be there on the picket line with UAW workers tomorrow. It's not just about autoworkers, right? They really set the pace for the middle class. This is about fighting for the heart and soul of the middle class. So what is the White House saying ahead of his big trip? KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, the White House is saying that this is essentially President Biden putting his money where his mouth is. He has long called himself the most pro-union president in history. And now the White House says that's why he's going to be doing something, in their words, that is historic.

And joining the picket line directly with those workers. But the White House took pains today to say that it is not to be seen as an endorsement of the specific terms that UAW workers are seeking. Here's how the Press Secretary put it in the briefing last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not going to get into negotiations from here. This is for the parties to negotiate. We're not going to go - we're not going to speak to what's being put at the table. What we have said over and over again is that we believe there is an opportunity here for a win-win agreement.

We believe with corporate record of corporations having record, you know, making record deals, there should be a - UAW should have a record contract. And that's what the autoworkers deserve. That's what workers deserve more broadly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:05:05]

TAUSCHE: Now, there's a reason the White House is walking such a fine line here. It's because since the early days of his presidency, Biden has staked out a position that, unlike Donald Trump, he is not going to put his thumb on the scale of third-party negotiations, be they Justice Department investigations or independent labor disputes.

And in this particular case, there's an independent labor board that currently has more than two dozen cases filed by the United Auto Workers that are currently pending. And that board is appointed by President Biden. But even so, the White House knows the politics of this are very powerful, especially with the endorsement from UAW hanging in the balance and that direct invitation from the union's president outstanding.

SCIUTTO: So, Jeff, we have both Biden and Trump planning to visit union workers in Michigan. And what's interesting is the support for union workers is fairly bipartisan, right, around the country. So are they going to approach it similarly or differently?

ZELENY: Well, look, I think that - I mean, by and large, it's been historically more of a Democratic vote. But this populist strain that's been sort of coursing through the party in the era of Trump, certainly it has been up for grabs, if you will.

And some of those very areas there just north of Detroit, Macomb County, of course, the home of the Reagan Democrat, if you will. Now, a lot of those Reagan Democrats are Trump Republicans, as we spent time there.

But look, I think that they will approach it differently in the sense that President Biden - he has tools at his disposal to help end the strike or help negotiate. They've pulled back somewhat from that. The acting labor secretary and Gene Sperling, who's been kind of tasked with this.

But the former president, for his part, on Wednesday, he's just going there to give a speech in a rally. And he has no actual skin in the game in terms of what he can do to resolve this.

KEILAR: Yes. No, that's a very good point.

Back to Kristen Holmes there who's at the Trump campaign event. Yes, he definitely - look, he has some fans, the former president does, among these union workers. There's no doubt about that. He did get very harshly rebuked by the UAW president, Shawn Fain, who essentially characterized Donald Trump as sort of part of this billionaire set that is profiting off of the labor of people like the auto workers.

I wonder if you think he'll address anything like that or if he has to push back on any kind of narrative like that.

HOLMES: I think what you're going to see from Donald Trump and this is what I'm hearing from his advisers, again, is just this narrative of pro worker, not necessarily pro union. And what he says and what his team says to me is that, yes, they understand that the president of the UAW came out and rebuked his trip, calling him a billionaire.

But they're not trying to appeal to the president of UAW. They believe that the people that they are going to try to appeal to are the rank and file. They understand that, as Jeff noted, that traditionally Democratic union workers, working class union workers have voted Democrat. They know that they're not going to win over every single worker. But what they are trying to do is to paint themselves as pro worker and pro job and a lot of this is going to be focused on the Biden policies, particularly around the environment, those green policies, talking about electric vehicles.

I'm sure you've noticed that Donald Trump, who speak regularly about electric vehicles just in the last several weeks, has started talking all the time about how they are killing jobs. That is all part of this strategy, to try to paint him as pro job, pro worker, to say essentially that all he wants is to keep jobs here in America.

And just to give you an idea, I mean, just moments ago he continued talking about here in South Carolina how they were going to start drilling for oil again here in the U.S., that they wanted to be energy sufficient here in the U.S. Something obviously trying to appeal to his base here and talking about, again, getting the jobs here in the U.S.

So this is something that he is going to be hammering home, particularly when he is in Michigan and particularly in the middle of this strike. When, again, they believe that this is a block of voters that they cannot win every single one. But can they just take some of them away from Joe Biden in a general election, that is where they're going to be looking at several different pockets of demographics and this is one that they believe they can get voters from.

KEILAR: It is a battleground.

Kristen Holmes, thank you so much. Jeff, Kayla, thank you as well to you.

And still to come, embattled Sen. Bob Menendez remains defiant after being indicted on bribery charges. He's calling the legal battle ahead his biggest fight yet, how he is attempting to explain some of the evidence against him next.

Plus, the historic Hollywood writers' strike might be ending. The Writers Guild of America reaching a tentative deal with the studios. So how soon could writers be back at work? We have that and much more on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:13:54]

KEILAR: With six days to go until the government shuts down, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy is at a bit of a crossroads. One route, he averts a shutdown by working with Democrats, which could cost him his speaker's gavel. The other route, he caves to GOP hardliners, which ensures that he'll keep his job as speaker, but it would make any House bill dead on arrival on the Senate side.

With McCarthy's power struggle set to tie up Uncle Sam's cash flow, the White House is pouncing on the chance to blame a small group of what they call extremist Republicans.

CNN's Melanie Zanona is covering all of this from the Hill.

And there is a lot of it, Melanie. Are the hardliners calling the shots here?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, they are, Brianna. But that is the reality of the razor-thin majority that Speaker Kevin McCarthy has been working with all year. And that is why we have seen a consistent pattern from the Speaker where he consistently caves to his right flank, gives them nearly every concession, but this time it might not be enough.

Kevin McCarthy has been trying to rally all of his members around a short-term spending bill that was loaded up with conservative priorities.

[15:15:02]

And he's has argued that they need to strengthen their hand in the negotiations with the Senate in order not to get jammed with something they're not going to like from Chuck Schumer.

But hardliners are digging in and they're also using Donald Trump now to justify their tactics. Donald Trump has now jumped into the fray, openly calling on Republicans for a government shutdown, because Kevin McCarthy is trying to deploy his own message, and he is really trying to ramp up pressure on his members to fall in line, let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Well, you have to keep the government open. I mean, if people want to close the government, it only makes it weaker. Why would they want to stop paying the troops or stop paying the border agents or the Coast Guard? I don't understand how that makes you stronger. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. We've got a border that's wide open today. You say it's getting worse each month under Joe Biden. We've got now border agents you saw this morning being bloodied. Why would you want to stop paying those individuals? I couldn't understand somebody that would want to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: And, of course, one way out of this would be for Kevin McCarthy to work with Democrats and work with the Senate. And, in fact, Chuck Schumer has taken steps for the Senate to pass their own short-term spending bill that would likely include things like disaster aid and Ukraine money, which would potentially tee up a massive showdown with the House.

And for Kevin McCarthy, it may ultimately come down to him choosing to keep the government open or keep his speaker's gavel. Brianna.

KEILAR: Yeah. Are Democrats inclined to help him out and is he inclined to accept that help?

ZANONA: Well, as of right now, Kevin McCarthy will not go down the path. He refuses to say that he's ready to work with Democrats, that he would rely on them for anything. He is not committed to what he would do if Chuck Schumer were to send over a bill.

And then when you talk to Democrats about whether they'd be willing to step in and save Kevin McCarthy from a vote to remove him, which is something hardliners, of course, are threatening if he works with Democrats, they are really weighing it.

I mean, it's a risky gambit for them as well. They don't want to be seen as saving Kevin McCarthy. There's not a lot of goodwill there, especially after Kevin McCarthy launched impeachment.

But some of them say that they would be willing to protect McCarthy if - and this is a big if, Brianna - if he's willing to make a good, big effort to put a bipartisan deal on the floor. So, yes, some of them would be willing to help him, but it would come at a cost.

KEILAR: It would, one he may not pay. We'll see. Melanie, thank you so much for that. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Well, later this week, Democratic senator Bob Menendez will be in court on bribery charges. Today, though, he made his first public comments in the face of that federal indictment. In short, he is staying put, he says, despite growing calls for him to resign, including from members of his own party in the state of New Jersey and Congress as well. He also responded to the most salacious piece of evidence in that indictment, the stacks of cash found in his home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BOB MENENDEZ (D-NJ): For 30 years, I have withdrawn thousands of dollars in cash from my personal savings account, which I have kept for emergencies and because of the history of my family facing confiscation in Cuba. Now, this may seem old-fashioned, but these were monies drawn from my personal savings account based on the income that I have lawfully derived over those 30 years. I look forward to addressing other issues at trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN Kara Scannell, she was at that briefing, so that's how he explained the cash. Did he explain the gold bars or the Mercedes convertible?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: No, Jim. He did not explain the gold bars or the Mercedes convertible or address some of the other allegations in this indictment. But he did try to say that some of his actions, his allegation is that he had received all of this cash, hundreds of thousands of dollars to aid three New Jersey businessmen and also to aid the government of Egypt.

Now, he did address the issue of Egypt, saying that his record on Capitol Hill has been one to try to hold Egypt accountable, not doing things that would aid them, saying he was holding the line on giving them military aid. So he's trying to draw a distinction between these allegations and what his public record is. But certainly that is going to be a fight that he will have in court and he made clear today that he is not going anywhere, that he's not backing down and saying that this will be the biggest fight that he's had to face, despite already facing corruption charges in 2015, but ultimately surviving them politically and both legally.

So Menendez saying that he's not going anywhere. Here's more of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MENENDEZ: I understand how deeply concerning this can be. However, the allegations leveled against me are just that, allegations. I recognize this will be the biggest fight yet, but as I have stated throughout this whole process, I firmly believe that when all the facts are presented, not only will I be exonerated, but I still will be the New Jersey's senior senator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:20:03] SCANNELL: And as you heard, he's saying that he believes he will be the senior senator when all this is over and that he is not stepping down despite facing these serious allegations. And Jim, the big question here is he's up for reelection next year, is he going to run, but Menendez would not answer that question when numerous reporters shouted it to him as he was leaving that briefing.

SCIUTTO: So what's the timeline then for his various appearances and upcoming trial?

SCANNELL: So Menendez, his wife and those three New Jersey businessmen are due in court on Wednesday where they will face charges and go before a judge. And that'll be the - potentially the first time that he will be asked to enter a plea in this case. And it seems pretty clear he's going to enter a plea of not guilty.

From there, the way that this plays out with all these cases is it will go through this process, the legal process, and it will be months and perhaps a year before we have a trial date if he does continue to fight this. So this trial will be overlapping with any potential reelection campaign if he also goes to move forward with that route, too, Jim.

SCIUTTO: It'll be quite a story to watch.

Kara Scannell, on top of it as always, thanks so much. Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. Let's talk about this now with Jamil Jaffer. He's a former counsel to the assistant attorney general for national security. Also, and I think very pertinent to this conversation, you worked for Sen. Corker when he was on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and when Bob Menendez was the chairman of the committee then during his prior indictment troubles.

This particular indictment details a meeting where Sen. Menendez met with Egyptian military officials in his official Senate office with only his then-girlfriend, now his wife, and an Egyptian-American businessman, Will Hana, who is also under indictment here. No Senate staffers. The indictment alleges the meeting included discussions of foreign military financing to Egypt. Why is that problematic?

JAMIL JAFFER, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT COUNSEL: Well, it's unusual, I think, certainly, that a senator would meet with foreign government officials without any staff present, without members of, sometimes they'll bring in State Department if they want to have the U.S. government's view of it, but it's unusual. And given what they said was discussed, given what they believe was discussed and given the alleged payments and the fact that Sen. Menendez may have been taking official action.

These are, again, allegations. Sen. Menendez correctly points out he's innocent until proven guilty. The government has the burden of the proof here, but if it's as they say it is, which is that he was there, he had made promises to do certain things, that this meeting was about the things they wanted him to do and he or his now-wife were getting paid for it, that's obviously hugely problematic and inappropriate use of his office if the government can prove that.

KEILAR: He also allegedly texted his then-girlfriend, now-wife, also under indictment, non-public sensitive information about embassy staffing at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, information that he obtained himself. He didn't have a staffer get this for him, which was then relayed to an Egyptian official. What do you see going on here? Can he hide behind? I was just doing my job, as we see him trying to do?

JAFFER: Well, look, I think that there are a lot of legitimate reasons why a member of Congress might ask for staffing levels at an embassy. They might want to understand spend. They might want to understand whether the appropriate staffing levels are there, the right amount of security and the like. Obviously, we saw what happened in Libya back in the day.

That might be a good reason why a senator would ask. But if he's taking that information, passing it on to his wife, who has no legitimate need for that information and knowing or if she was intentionally going to pass it on to an Egyptian government official, the question is, why would they want it? What are they trying to find out, right?

They're trying to understand what are the security levels, who can they exploit, who can they target for intelligence collection? The numbers alone may not be enough, but the numbers, who those staffers are, what jobs they have, they might be trying to assess, are there intelligence officials present that we're not aware of, right?

These are all things that a government might want to know about the embassy that you wouldn't necessarily know unless you had access to that kind of information.

KEILAR: That particular detail is one of the most serious things, I think, in this indictment. At what point does this rise to the seriousness of, he's actually working outside of the interests of the U.S. I don't know if you would call it - would you call it spying? I mean, at what point does it get to a level of something like that?

JAFFER: Well, sharing sensitive, non-public information isn't necessarily sort of spying in the sense of, like, giving classified information, right? But it is sharing information that you have in your official capacity that you're not supposed to share with others. Now, he could argue, I didn't know it was sensitive, it's just a number of personnel, that's - but then the question is why did you ask your staff to get it, right? Why was it sort of behind closed doors? Why were the text messages deleted?

KEILAR: Why did he seek it out?

JAFFER: Why did you seek it out, exactly.

KEILAR: (Inaudible) ...

JAFFER: That's right. And so all these questions will come up.

Now, Sen. Menendez has legitimate reasons for doing - could argue he has legitimate reasons for doing all things he did, approving the transactions, helping push them through. Remember, at the time, Egypt is a strong and still is today, an ally of the United States. He have provided them historically a significant amount of military financing and aid. That's not surprising.

[15:25:06]

The question is why was he doing it at the time and was he or somebody around him getting paid to do this? If that's the case, the government could prove that that is hugely problematic and it's going to be a significant problem for Sen. Menendez.

KEILAR: These charges being brought by a Biden-appointed U.S. attorney, we should be very clear about that. We are hearing Republicans still talking about this two-tier justice system, which is a talking point that they have held to when it comes to Hunter Biden, even in the face of this indictment, and now the Hunter Biden indictment.

Do you - what are you seeing? Just fact-check that talking point for us.

JAFFER: Well, look, I mean, obviously this is - they're going after Hunter Biden, the president's son, right? He's been indicted in federal court. They're going after a sitting senior Democratic U.S. senator who's been in office a long time, a senior member of the party.

At the same time, there are a lot of Republicans who feel, look, you're still going after a Republican president, right, a former Republican president, during a time when the current president is running for re-election, and that former president is running for re- election, right?

If Joe Biden weren't running for office, it might be a different story. He has chosen to run for office. Donald Trump has chosen to run for office. That's part of what I think makes this challenging. It makes it hard for the Justice Department to say we're separate, we're apart, even though that may be the case.

It's easy to look at it and say, man, this doesn't look good, right? And so I think you're going to hear Republicans, continue to say that, even though Hunter Biden has been charged. And again, to be fair, the charges aren't that aggressive, right? There's a lot more that people might want to be brought - against Hunter Biden.

KEILAR: There could still be.

JAFFER: Could still be, right? We don't know, right? But at least thus far, we haven't seen significant charges about Burisma and the like being brought.

KEILAR: But there - I mean, there likely could be, so ...

JAFFER: Could be and we don't know if - there may not be the evidence to support that. We don't know what investigation the government's done or hasn't done, what evidence they have or don't have. But I think Republicans will continue to be concerned about the pursuit of Republicans and specifically Donald Trump, right?

But at the end of the day, the question is, did Donald Trump do the things they alleged he did, did he have classified documents in an unauthorized manner, did he store them inappropriately. If he did, he's still guilty of violation of the law. You can't let the fact that he's running for office or is a former president or the president's running for office, stop the Justice Department from doing its job as well.

KEILAR: Jamil, always great to have you. Thank you so much.

JAFFER: Thanks for having me, Brianna.

KEILAR: Jim?

SCIUTTO: America's highest-ranking military officer is retiring and leaving what some say is a controversial legacy. Why Gen. Mark Milley is considered one of the most, by some, divisive but also politically nimble joint chiefs chairman in modern history. That's coming up.