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Hearing On Biden Impeachment Inquiry Held By Republican-Led House Committee; Candidates Square Off In 2nd Republican Debate Without Trump; Interview With Former Public Policy Director For Mitt Romney Lanhee Chen; 2nd GOP Debate, Nikki Haley Strikes Ramaswamy; Military Families May Suffer Greatly As A Result Of Government Shutdown; Interview With Blue Star Families CEO And President Kathy Roth-Douquet; Federal Judge Overseeing Trump's Election Subversion Case Will Not Be Removing Herself From The Case. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired September 28, 2023 - 10:30:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR, INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY AND CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, that leaves things at a very likely prospect of a shutdown that would occur on -- after 11:59 p.m. on Saturday. Even as the senators trying to move along bipartisan lines and will approve a bill along bipartisan lines to keep the government open, that is going to go nowhere in the Republican and the house. As the speaker has said, there is not support for that because of provisions that are in there, including funding for Ukraine.

So, even as the focus right now is on the impeachment effort by the Republicans, McCarthy had hoped to channel the Republican energy towards the impeachment inquiry. Instead, it is distracted of this government shutdown fight, undercutting their message, undercutting what they hoped to keep the public spotlight on, instead focusing on the Republican division in the House GOP versus the Senate GOP, as well as whether they can keep the government open. All major questions that are creating big chaos for the speaker at this moment. Guys.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: And look, Jamie Raskin was trying to exploit those --

SARA SIDNER, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: He did that, yes.

BERMAN: -- divisions with visual aids, poster boards right behind him with quotes from Republican about the impeachment inquiry and the situation in Congress. Manu, our thanks to you. Sara Murray, Elie Honig, thank you.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: This is -- could last, like, six hours. This is just beginning. Every member -- there's a -- there's like a huge committee. So, while they were -- while we hear what's happening at the top, this is going to grab the attention of at least this committee for multiple hours to come.

BERMAN: And as Sara points out --

SIDNER: And we are ticking -- BERMAN: Yes, there aren't that many --

SIDNER: -- towards a shutdown.

BOLDUAN: Yes, exactly.

BERMAN: -- hours until the shutdown.

SIDNER: All right.

BERMAN: All right.

SIDNER: Coming up, the lights went on, and the gloves came off at the second Republican presidential debate, but did any of them get close to trying to take down the frontrunner, Donald Trump? That is ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:00]

BERMAN: OK. The important question this morning, did anything that happened in the Republican debate last night with seven candidates on stage, did anything that happened do anything to change the trajectory of the race? Donald Trump is ahead, way ahead. Last night, for the first time for at least some of the candidates, they did address the issue of Trump more directly. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And you know who else is missing in action? Donald Trump is missing in action. He should be on this stage tonight. He owes it to you to defend his record.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald, I know you are watching. You can't help yourself. You're ducking these things. And let me tell you what's going to happen, you keep doing that, no one up here's going to call you Donald Trump anymore. We're going to call you Donald Duck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. With us now, Former Public Policy Director for Senator Mitt Romney, Lanhee Chen, and Former Republican Congressman and CNN Senior Political Commentator Adam Kinzinger. Friends, I want to put up on the screen just so people can see. The CNN Poll of Polls, what we did is I took Donald Trump's current number on the Poll of Polls and added up everyone else on that stage. All seven candidates added up are at 37 percent. Trump is beating the field collectively by 21 points.

So, Congressman, to you -- we'll get to who had the best moment in a bit. But did anything that happened change the fundamental structure of this race to make it more likely than any of them could beat Donald Trump? FMR. REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL), CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND HONORARY CHAIRMAN, COUNTY FIRST PAC: I wish I could tell you, yes. I wish. No, it's not going to change anything. Really the key is that opposition force, should we call it, the people running against Donald Trump, that has to thin out so then you see one person, kind of, growing in numbers, and then the discussion becomes it's really a two- person race. That's not going to happen any time soon.

So, I don't think anything last night changed the fundamental of whatever it was, 58, 37. It just kind of shuffled the decks a little on the Titanic, shuffled the chairs on the Titanic over on the 37 percent part.

BERMAN: You know, Lanhee, if the goal is to beat Donald Trump, do you think those candidates won about it in the right way?

LANHEE CHEN, FORMER PUBLIC POLICY DIRECTOR FOR MITT ROMNEY: Well, it's about drawing contrast, right. When you have a primary contest, you're inherently looking at people who agree on, 90 percent of the stuff. So, the question is where you drawing bright lines? And I think you saw some of that last night. You saw it on Ukraine. You saw it with respect to the record of the Trump administration on spending, which a lot of people know they added a ton of debt, a ton of deficits.

And so, you saw an effort by folks like Nikki Haley, like Tim Scott to draw some of that contrast. Now, at the end of the day, the congressman is right. What they're really fighting for is to be the last person standing against Donald Trump. And then it gets interesting, but until then, you kind of have to hang in there and you have to do your best to try and stand out.

BERMAN: I wanted to play one moment from Governor Nikki Haley when was talking, she chose to talk more about Vivek Ramaswamy. She really leaned into him when he was talking. I'm not even sure I remember what it was. It was about digital privacy or kids using social media. This is what Governor Haley said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I -- honestly, every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber for what you say.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Pretty important for our party and I'm going to say it.

HALEY: And what we've seen is you've gone and you've helped China --

RAMASWAMY: We should stop --

HALEY: -- build -- make medicines --

RAMASWAMY: We will --

HALEY: -- in China, not America.

RAMASWAMY: Excuse me. Excuse me.

HALEY: You now wanted kids to go and get on the social media that's dangerous for all of us. You went -- you were in business with the Chinese that gave Hunter Biden $5 million. We can't trust you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, Lanhee, about that, she's going after Ramaswamy which they all seemed to enjoy doing at different moments. But is what she's really doing saying I can fight here if it comes to it? I can fight against Trump. I can fight against Biden.

CHEN: Well, there's the imagery of being a fighter. I do think that that was important. I think that was part of the mindset. But there's the cold hard facts of the polling. And I think there probably is some polling that all these candidates are looking. It indicates that Ramaswamy has some traction in some key places, and that he needs to be taken down a few notches.

But if you add to that, there the imagery, there's the data, and then there's just the reality that I think a lot of these candidates don't care him. They don't like the fact that he's there. They don't like what he represents and they're trying to do what they can to take him down a few notches.

[10:40:00]

And I thought, frankly, Haley was very effective last night at doing so. I think, Ramaswamy looked a little bit like an imposter at time. So, absolutely. I think it's the combinations of all of those factors together that dictate why indeed he was such a target last night.

BERMAN: So, Congressman, who's in a better position this morning that they were yesterday morning?

KINZINGER: That's a tough one. Look, I think Nikki Haley is continuing to build on that moment. Again, we're talking in the 37, but that's got to consolidate to be the candidate. Tim Scott kind of came out of the box a little last night, which he had to do. DeSantis did a little bit as well. Pence, I don't know what he was doing. And Chris Christie was pretty strong.

So, I would say, probably, of all the group, I'm going to say Christie, Haley, kind of Scott, DeSantis, all of them. I don't know. So, it's just -- again, we're shuffling deck chairs. But Vivek, I think, came out pretty poorly last night, and I'm not saying this just to some Washington D.C. insider. Nikki Haley, what you saw on that clip, she was genuinely -- like, you saw a genuine disgust by the charlatan nature of what Vivek has become.

You know, calling out his China links, calling out his complete disregard for Ukraine and the fight for freedom there. I think that was actually really effective because, again, Vivek is trying to play off this Donald Trump thing of genuineness, which Trump is not genuine, but he does a good job of pretending. I don't think Vivek can pull that off. I mean, she did a good job. BERMAN: Voters have shown, for generations that what --they like is someone who's true to themself. One way or another, for better or for worse. Lanhee, is there any reason Donald Trump should show up to next debate if he's trying to win, not because it's the right thing to do. Well, look, I think all candidates should debate at all times. But if his goal is to win, is there any reason he should show up?

CHEN: No, probably not. I'm not sure, though. Again, it's a question of whether the ego will allow the reality of the cold hard facts. to take over. There really isn't a reason for him to be on that same stage. I do think that his campaign team has it right in the sense that it puts him on a plane with people who, frankly, from a polling perspective now are not on his plane.

But at some point, you would hope he does show up because, first of all, it would be more entertaining for everybody. But second of all, it would allow the candidates to show, are they willing to go after him directly when he is on the stage, or are they going to cower from that potential responsibility?

So, I do hope he shows up. I'm not holding my breath unless, in fact, his ego sort of says, look, I cannot continue to standby and let people attack me without letting this thing go unresponded to. I think that's the only thing that could provoke him to join the next debate.

BERMAN: Congressman, quickly, President Biden later today is going to Arizona to announce that he is getting money for a federal -- you know, federal money for McCain, John McCain Library, and he's going to give a speech about democracy. Now, again, you're a republican. It's not much, you know, your job to give advice to Democrats, but if you were to advise President Biden, do you think he should talk more about democracy, defending democracy, and less about Bidenomics? Is the defense to democracy a winning strategy for him?

KINZINGER: Well, I think at all is defensive democracy is really important because democracy is truly under threat. And I think we underestimate everyday how important leadership is. When a president speaks about an issue, that becomes the issue everybody's talking about. It can't be one and done. This has to be a consistent message.

He also needs to -- I would say if I was giving advice, you have to address like the border. You have to address things like crime. Because as much as you are talk about democracy, if people feel unsafe, which they do now, disagree or agree, they feel unsafe. You go on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and that is way below, safety is way below so it's the thing you have to satisfy first than like, self- actualization up here and democracy. All of it is important, but they have to address this issue. And for whatever reason, they seemed paralyzed to do it.

BERMAN: Congressman Kinzinger, Lanhee Chen -- great to see you again, Lanhee. I haven't seen you in a while. Appreciate you both being here.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, government shutdown impacts so many facets of how the government functions and so many facets of Americans' lives. But what would government shutdown would mean for U.S. military families. It's very important to discuss. We're going to speak with the president of Blue Star Families, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:45:00]

SIDNER: Now, to the impact of a government shutdown. A shutdown could hit military families especially hard. Last week, Blue Star Families conducted a poll about this issue, reaching over 600 respondents. And 54 percent of those respondents said they would be greatly impacted if a shutdown were to happen.

Joining us now is Kathy Roth-Douquet, the CEO of Blue Star Families. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Can you give me a sense, and give our viewers a sense of just how close to the edge some of these military family members are living when it comes to being forced to forego just one paycheck.

KATHY ROTH-DOUQUET, CEO AND PRESIDENT, BLUE STAR FAMILIES: Yes, thank you so much for having us -- me, Sara. And, really, the threat of this government shutdown is crushing to many military families, and discouraging to most. And it's because people who serve in the military, and by extension their families, they're willing to set aside a lot of rises of citizenship and accept a lot of risks. And we do that because we love our country and because there's an enemy that is threatening us.

And what's very discoursing is where it -- when the threat of harm comes not from the enemy but from our own U.S. Congress. And that's right, we know from our surveys that one in three military families have less than $3,000 in savings.

[10:50:00]

So, if you miss one paycheck, you don't have enough savings to cover your rent, to cover your day care, to cover your food, and that's a place that we should never be putting our military families in.

SIDNER: Yes, because they are forced to continue to do the job just without getting the pay. I do want you to listen to Republican Congressman from Tennessee, Andy Ogles, who seemed a bit nonchalant about the prospect of a government shutdown. Let me let you listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ANDY OGLES (R-TN): At the end of the day, leadership procrastinated and he created a mess. Now, we got to find our way through it. And if that means staying a couple extra weeks with the shutdown, that's fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: He says, that's fine. I mean, what do you think of his statement? And there was another statement that another Republican congressperson made saying, basically that, look, they're going to get back pay. Almost like it's not that big of a deal. What do you think about that?

ROTH-DOUQUET: It is a very big deal. A lot of the military families are young families. Many military families are unable to feel that second income that most middle-class and working-class people need because they move so often over and over again. They get that broken time. So, families are on the edge.

I got a text yesterday from a young enlisted spouse that I know, her husband is an E-force junior soldier. Missing one paycheck for us means we cannot buy groceries. We can't and feed our animals. We can't pay our bill, which includes our rent which means we could lose our apartment. It's very important for us to get that -- my husband's paycheck because we cannot go two weeks without it.

SIDNER: That is a really stark and worrisome e-mail that you got. I do want to ask you, what do these families do, because these shutdowns have happened in the past, the last one was during the Trump administration, it went on for quite some time. What do they do?

ROTH-DOUQUET: You know, it's a great amount of distress. We -- there is a bill in Congress right now, Congresswoman Kiggans from Virginia has a Pay Our Troops Act. We urged Congress to pass that. When the troops are not paid, they look for emergency aid. We have to ask our neighbors and our employers to understand the situation we're in and to try to help us out.

But the long-term effects of this is that we are hearing, and in that pulse poll you mentioned, 54 percent said they'd be greatly affected, but 85 percent said that they would be somewhat greatly affected. Those folks are also telling us that they're considering leaving military service. So, it's not just about back pay, it's about are people going to be willing to continue to serve when they can't trust their civilian leaders to have their backs.

SIDNER: I just want to lastly ask you, if you could sit down with all of Congress and send them a message, what would you say to them?

ROTH-DOUQUET: Do your job. The people in the military put themselves in tremendous risk to do our job. All we want you to do is do your job, pass the budget, do not shutdown the government. Let us protect the country unmolested.

SIDNER: Kathy Roth-Douquet, that was a good way to end things. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on.

ROTH-DOUQUET: Thank you.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: All right. Some important new rulings by the judge presiding over the federal election case against Donald Trump. A setback for the Trump team which has just shuffled its legal team again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:55:00]

BOLDUAN: Request denied. The federal judge overseeing Donald Trump's 2020 election subversion case will not be removing herself from the case. The former president's team has repeatedly called on Judge Chutkan to recuse herself and the president repeatedly accusing the judge of bias over previous comments made during sentencings for January defendants.

Let's get to it. CNN's Katelyn Polantz is following this. Katelyn, this was a 20-page ruling that the judge put out over this. What did she say and is this now settled?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, this particular request from Donald Trump is settled. This was his attempt to get this judge, Tanya Chutkan, and the federal court in Washington D.C. off of his case that is set to go to trial next year. But this is an opinion worth noting because it is one where this judge is being asked to address, essentially, political attacks that Donald Trump has brought into the courtroom. Something a tactic he has tried in a number of his cases, and it continues on, the judges and prosecutors are having to grapple with.

In this particular case, he was trying to say that Judge Chutkan should not be on this case because she could not be fair to him because of sentences she had already imposed, sentencing two Capitol riot defendants to jail time. In those cases, both of those people, those two Capitol rioters had tried to argue with their sentences that they should shift the blame to Trump. That they should not be held as fully responsible because, for some reason, they were at the Capitol because of Donald Trump. Judge Chutkan had rejected that, essentially, during those sentencings. And now, is also rejecting Donald Trump's request here.

One of the things she writes in this opinion that came out last night, her statements at those sentencing, they arose not as the defense speculates from watching the news, but from the sentencing proceedings. And the statements directly reflected facts proffered and arguments made by those defendants, the January 6th rioters.

And so, she's not really engaging with the political bluster of Donald Trump here. This is a pretty straightforward opinion from Judge Chutkan, and one that sets us closer to trial, getting rid of this request he made by denying it. And so now, we have this opinion from Judge Chutkan. She can write in a way that cuts like a knife, but in this opinion, it is pretty straightforward. Kate.

BOLDUAN: Let's see what happens next. It's great to have you here, Katelyn, thank you.

John.

BERMAN: All right. Happening now, you're looking at live pictures of the first hearing of the impeachment inquiry into President Biden. But just as this hearing begins, there's actually a debate over whether it's even legal. Stay with us.

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