Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Trump on Witness Stand in New York?; Interview With Rep. Jimmy Gomez (D-CA); Senator Robert Menendez Facing Growing Calls to Resign; Can Kevin McCarthy Avoid Shutdown?. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 28, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:53]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: No deal and potentially no paycheck. While House Republicans clash ahead of a potential government shutdown, the financial futures of federal employees, key programs, military members and their families, all of that and more is at stake. We will take you live to Capitol Hill.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Where also Menendez is facing the music, the indicted senator addressing the colleagues calling for his resignation right now. He has been publicly defiant, but will he strike a different tone with his party behind closed doors?

And it's a sharp message and a blunt warning, President Biden delivering a major address minutes from now about threats to U.S. democracy.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: We are following several big stories this afternoon playing out on Capitol Hill, and the one topping them all is the impending government shutdown, just three days left for lawmakers to prevent it, but the outlook is not great.

The chambers right now are talking past each other. The Senate is pushing a bipartisan deal that the Republican House speaker won't even put up for a vote. In the meantime, the House is about to vote on a spending bill that has zero chance of passing a Democrat-controlled Senate, and hanging in the balance, the livelihoods of close to four million federal workers who starting next week will not get a paycheck if lawmakers don't keep the government running.

Let's take you now live to Capitol Hill with CNN's Lauren Fox.

So, Lauren, where do things stand right now?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there's no shortage of efforts right now between the House and the Senate, but there's no effort where the two chambers are right now working together.

Instead, what you have is the House of Representatives and House Republicans rushing to try to pass four individual spending bills tonight, none of which would prevent a government shutdown, because it would only fund a fraction of the government.

Then you have House leadership telling their membership today in a closed-door meeting that the expectation is tomorrow they are still going to try to vote on a Republican-only short term spending bill to give them more time to negotiate on a fuller yearlong spending bill down the line.

So, neither of those proposals are expected to get support in the United States Senate. And on the Senate side of the Capitol, what you have right now is a frantic effort to try and push through a Senate- negotiated plan that had Democratic and Republican support.

But there's a potential where they could be voting well into the weekend even past the shutdown deadline, because Senator Rand Paul has warned he is going to slow-walk this process because the bill includes $6.2 billion in Ukraine aid funding.

So that's where things stand right now. You also have a frantic effort in the Senate among independent Senator Kyrsten Sinema, Republican Senator Susan Collins and Thom Tillis, as they are trying to put forward some kind of border security amendment to try to entice House Republicans to maybe take up their proposal.

As you see, things are moving, but nothing is moving together on the same track. And that is why there is growing concern from Republicans and Democrats that, at this point, a shutdown may be unavoidable -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes, with major consequences not only for federal workers, but the broader U.S. economy as well, depending on how long it might go.

Lauren Fox from Capitol Hill, thank you so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Happening right now, indicted Democratic Senator Bob Menendez is facing members of his own party. The majority are calling on him to resign over these new charges that he allegedly took bribes and risked national security.

Thirty of his fellow Senate Democrats and also independents who caucus with the Democrats want him to go, but among the 21 who have not urged him to resign is Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.

CNN's Manu Raju is following this for us.

What are you hearing from lawmakers this morning about all this, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's a lot of anticipation for this meeting, which is happening right now.

In fact, I tried to ask Bob Menendez a question as he walked into that lunch. He refused to answer any questions. He did talk to a couple of us a couple days ago very briefly, said that he will not resign. He says that he is innocent.

[13:05:09] So, the question is, to the extent to which he details these allegations or pushes back on them, what evidence does he provide? Does he give any senators -- ease any of their concerns? Because, right now, 30 of his colleagues in the Senate Democratic Caucus wanted to step aside.

Others, including the new chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee after Menendez had to step aside, Ben Cardin, would not say if he's comfortable if Menendez would continue to serve on the committee, given the gravity of the allegations that he is facing. And there's some, like Senator John Fetterman, who was the first Democratic senator to call on Menendez to resign, saying that him continuing to serve in the Senate is a distraction for his party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): He's got to go. And this -- that arrogance where he's now saying, I'm not going anywhere, it's like, my dude, you are going somewhere, and it's going to be an election or it's going to be a conviction, or you have the opportunity for an honorable exit.

And the time for that to really choose is really starting to go. And he has a chance to do that. Do the honorable exit and stop being a massive kind of distraction here for the Senate and for the nation.

RAJU: Will you try to help his primary challenger?

FETTERMAN: Sure, sure, absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that is one of the big questions. Will Bob Menendez decide to run for reelection here next year? He is up for reelection in a seat that should be safe for the Democrats, but he would not say when I asked him on Monday whether or not he would run, would, in fact, run for his seat again.

He declined to say, other than to say that he's serving the people of New Jersey. But the fear among Democrats is that, if he does stay in the seat, does continue to run, he could jeopardize that seat in a very difficult election environment for Democrats.

So, how he deals with these questions will be one of the things that members will be listening to, and will they take any action to try to punish him further, either kicking him off committees, even go as far as expulsion? Those things have not been discussed yet. Will that change after today's meeting remains to be seen here in a matter of minutes here -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, we are looking to see what comes out of that meeting, Manu. We will be checking in. Thank you so much -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Also happening right now on Capitol Hill, House Republicans are holding their first impeachment inquiry into President Biden -- rather, the hearing in the impeachment inquiry, as they try to tie him to his son's foreign business dealings.

Despite investigating for months, Republicans have yet to show concrete evidence demonstrating that Joe Biden received any money from Hunter Biden's business endeavors. But they argue this impeachment inquiry will give them the power to find that evidence. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): At least 10 times, Joe Biden lied to the American people that he never spoke to his family about their business dealings. He lied by telling the American people that there was an absolute wall between his official government duties and his personal life.

Let's be clear. There wasn't a wall.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): We're 62 hours away from shutting down the government of the United States of America, and Republicans are launching an impeachment drive based on a long-debunked and discredited lie.

No foreign enemy has ever been able to shut down the government United States, but now MAGA Republicans are about to do just that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN has also learned that some inside the Republican Party are already showing their frustration over today's hearing after some of their own witnesses directly undercut Republicans' narrative by admitting that there is currently no evidence that Joe Biden has committed an impeachable offense.

Let's discuss all this with a member of the House Oversight Committee. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Jimmy Gomez of California.

Congressman, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon.

I'd first like to get your thoughts on something one of the witnesses said.

This is Jonathan Turley. He's a conservative law professor, and he was talking about the lack of direct evidence connecting Joe Biden to wrongdoing. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN TURLEY, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I do not believe that the current evidence would support articles of impeachment. That is something that an inquiry has to establish.

But I also do believe that the House has passed the threshold for an impeachment inquiry.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Congressman, what do you make of this argument that they need this inquiry to gather evidence and that President Biden shouldn't have to worry if there's no evidence of wrongdoing? What's your response?

REP. JIMMY GOMEZ (D-CA): My response is, I think, if it was that simple, then, if they had the evidence, they should proceed with an actual impeachment.

But an impeachment inquiry can help poison the public's mind that Joe Biden committed some type of crime, which he did not. They have zero evidence when it comes to Joe Biden committing any wrongdoing. So what they keep talking about is Hunter Biden.

[13:10:02]

They're talking about Hunter Biden's business dealings. They're talking about the money he's received. They're talking about his gun possession. But there's nothing that has ever connected Joe Biden to any wrongdoing, zero. So they're just going to throw up facts that are sort of related and then say, the Biden family, in order to connect Biden to some wrongdoing that he had nothing to do with.

So I think this has been a sham. They had a narrative from the very beginning in their minds from when Trump lost the election. And they are going to find the facts, cherry-pick facts to support that narrative. And when they don't have the facts, they just make it up.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, I want to explore that point with you, because there were two wire transfers from Chinese nationals to Hunter Biden that, as the beneficiary address, had listed Joe Biden's home in Delaware.

Republicans are pointing to that as a connection between the two. What do you make of it?

GOMEZ: First, that it was to Hunter Biden. Hunter Biden lived at his dad's house. I know a lot of kids that live at their parents' house, especially when they're having a tough time in life. That happens.

But they showed no connection that the money was connected to anything that Joe Biden did. It also was never when he was during -- when Joe Biden has been president. So this is something that they're trying to spin and connect, when there is no connection.

I can send a wire transfer to an individual using a different address. The only thing that matters is if that account exists. That's it. So I think they're trying to connect facts that don't say anything. And, honestly, they're just trying to poison the public's mind that Joe Biden did something wrong, when there is zero evidence.

SANCHEZ: And what about the allegations in those 700 pages that were released yesterday that prosecutors put up roadblocks to try to protect President Biden?

I see you laughing, but they're alleging that, for example... (LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: ... that they took Joe Biden's name off a warrant. What do you make of all of that?

GOMEZ: First, I haven't seen that, but I know that the information that was released by Ways and Means was refuted by one question of one particular reporter.

The documents that they have, I believe that has -- probably has nothing to do with Joe Biden. I don't think it does. In the end, if there is clear evidence, let the DOJ investigate, let -- and let them follow the facts. But here's the thing. The facts don't lead to Joe Biden. They lead to Hunter Biden.

And Hunter Biden is not an elected official and he's not even president of the United States.

SANCHEZ: Well, we just want to point out for viewers that we're looking at live images from the impeachment inquiry hearing right now.

Let's explore that point a little bit further, because there is pretty clear evidence and testimony that Hunter Biden tried to leverage his father's name for lucrative business deals. As you pointed out, he's not a government official, that aspect of his dealings not illegal.

But is the illusion, selling the illusion of access to a vice president or president, is that appropriate, in your eyes? Is that ethical?

GOMEZ: I don't believe it is. But this is also one thing.

Hunter Biden was, what I was told, was doing that during a time when Joe Biden wasn't even in the office. So, it is like, if you're no longer in office, do you have that kind of influence? Yes, he was a former vice president. But you know what they say. Being a vice president isn't worth a warm bucket of spit. So, that was during a different time.

No, Hunter Biden has clear ethical lapses. He is being investigated. He has indictments. And people should look at that. But does that mean that his dad committed any wrongdoing that reaches the level of high crimes of misdemeanors? No.

SANCHEZ: So there were concerns when Joe Biden was vice president about his son's business dealings. In fact, officials in the Obama administration raised them because they were worried about the way it would look ethically.

I'm wondering what your response to that is.

GOMEZ: If there was something that proves that Joe Biden did something wrong, that evidence would support it. DOJ should look into it. But there never was anything that clearly impacted Joe Biden.

So I think that, when it comes to Hunter Biden, that's a different story. He's a private individual. And if he did anything wrong, then he should be held accountable.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, do you think this impeachment inquiry would be happening right now were it not for former President Trump putting pressure on House Republicans, and also the fact that there's a government shutdown that's looming?

GOMEZ: No, I do not.

[13:15:00]

Like, I think that this was always a goal of the Republican majority. Kevin McCarthy cut deals in order to get -- become speaker. Remember, 15 rounds, he cut all sorts of deals. And when Donald Trump speaks, the Republicans listen. Although he's no longer the president, he is the de facto head of that party.

And when he says, hey, shut down the government, that's what they're going to do. If they say, impeach -- try to find information to impeach Joe Biden, that's what they're going to do.

This is all directed at Joe Biden, because Donald Trump lost the 2020 election, and he was impeached twice, based on evidence that showed that he did wrongdoing when it came to Ukraine, and when he incited an insurrection against the United States Constitution and the House of Representatives and Congress itself.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, it strikes me that House Speaker Kevin McCarthy hasn't actually put this impeachment inquiry up for a vote on the House floor. Would you encourage him to?

GOMEZ: Yes, I'd love to see him put it up on the House floor. I would want to see where his members are. Democrats, we're going to vote no.

I'd love to see where some of his front-line or his moderate members, where they're at. I want to see where Mr. Lawler falls, if he believes in it. There's even some hardcore MAGA Republicans -- I wouldn't even say MAGA -- Tea Party Republicans that says there's no evidence to have an impeachment and could vote no.

So, I'd love to kind of see how that would play out. And if he believes that there is evidence, he should take up a vote to start a formal impeachment process.

SANCHEZ: Congressman Jimmy Gomez, I think I caught a "pero" in one of your responses there, dropping some Spanglish for us on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Congressman Jimmy Gomez, thanks so much for the time.

(LAUGHTER)

GOMEZ: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Still to come on NEWS CENTRAL, we're following some breaking news. Former President Trump and his adult children could be called to the stand in the New York civil fraud case. We have details on that just ahead.

Plus, it's not officially a rematch just yet, but President Biden is sure acting like it. He is set to issue a blunt warning about why Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. We're on it.

And the FDA is slapping a new warning label on Ozempic. We will explain why in just moments.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:21:25]

KEILAR: On the witness list and possibly headed to the witness stand.

Donald Trump, his two adult sons, and his closest business advisers could be called to testify in the civil fraud trial that is expected to begin next week in New York.

CNN's Kara Scannell is following this for us.

Kara, what are you learning here?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, the witness lists are out, and the New York attorney general's office says they're going to call 28 witnesses in their case, including Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump, Ivanka Trump, and Michael Cohen, who is Trump's former fixer whose testimony before Congress in 2019 set off the New York attorney general's investigation, because he said that the Trump family had inflated the value of their assets.

And that is exactly what she sued and what a judge earlier this week said is what they did. And now Trump's side says that they plan to call 127 witnesses, including Donald Trump, so both sides saying that they're going to call him as a witness. He's already testified in a deposition.

Of course, when it comes down to it we will see if he does show up for the testimony and does provide live testimony. In a civil case, you cannot testify and just have that be held against you. But sources say he is eager to take the stand in this case.

Now, the trial is set to begin on Monday, at least for now. We're waiting for an appeals court ruling to see if that will influence the start date. But since the judge had ruled earlier this week on the fraud, that the financial statements were fraudulent, the issue going forward is going to be both one of damages, as well as the individual culpability of some of these defendants, including former President Trump -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Kara Scannell, thank you so much for that report.

SANCHEZ: Of course, all of this is unfolding as House Republicans are holding their first impeachment inquiry hearing into President Biden.

KEILAR: Let's discuss this now with -- pardon me.

Let's discuss 2024 with CNN senior political analyst Gloria Borger and CNN presidential historian and former director of the Nixon Presidential Library Tim Naftali.

Look, in fairness, I sort of choked there, literally, because I'm being choked by my microphone cord that just fell off my back.

SANCHEZ: It happens. It does happen.

KEILAR: So, here we go. All right, so, Tim, first to you, your react...

SANCHEZ: On, no.

KEILAR: I have recovered. I have.

So, OK, first, your reaction to what we are seeing happen on the Hill.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Let's put this into some perspective. This is the first time, first time in U.S. history that we're having an impeachment without a predicate, without a basis.

In modern history, of course, Nixon, you had the Saturday Night Massacre, when he fires the special prosecutor. Clinton, it was the Starr report and the fact that he had lied under oath about Lewinsky. The first Trump impeachment was because of the so-called perfect call. The second Trump impeachment was because of January 6.

What is the predicate? What is the basis? What is the evidence of bribery, treason, or a high crime or high misdemeanor by President Biden? None so far. And they have already started an impeachment inquiry. So it's unprecedented.

SANCHEZ: Gloria, over to you.

It is curious that House Speaker Kevin McCarthy is launching this inquiry. He hasn't put it up for a vote, and he probably doesn't want to.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he wouldn't have had the votes. And he's launching an inquiry because he's under pressure from his right wing. And he needs them.

It's all related -- in this crazy world here, it's all related to the government shutdown. I mean, he needs to find ways to placate the right. However, the fact that he has launched an inquiry, particularly without a vote, means the Democrats might be less willing to bail him out if he needs their votes on any kind of a continuing resolution to keep the government open.

[13:25:08]

So it's all this sort of tangled web. And this is -- this is just part of it. And, as Tim was saying, they're starting this inquiry sort of backwards, without any real evidence to say that Joe Biden has benefited financially in any way from his son's business dealings.

So, what you see is sort of a fishing expedition here and no vote to have it proceed in the first place.

KEILAR: And they're seeking to justify that or basically say that's OK. We saw the testimony from Jonathan Turley, one of their legal experts, and he says as much.

He says, so far, there is nothing here, but he's making the case that the impeachment inquiry -- and he's making the case that Republicans wanted to make, which is that the impeachment inquiry is necessary to see if there is something more.

To Tim's point, Gloria, it's a different -- it's sort of resetting the threshold for where you go with these things.

BORGER: Right.

KEILAR: And I just wonder what the long-term effect of that is.

BORGER: Well, you lower the bar. You lower the bar, and impeachment becomes just another thing you can do to aggravate a sitting president, whether you have the goods or not.

These are serious things, impeachments, and people should not take them lightly and politicians should not take them lightly. And they should not occur just when people are angry at a president. And I think what we're seeing is the lowering of that bar and a committee that is bound to do it and a House speaker that decided he couldn't stop them for other reasons, other political reasons.

And so I think it's just a moment in American political history when something that used to be very serious is now kind of just becoming run-of-the-mill.

And you heard or Donald Trump say, well they did it to me. They should do it to -- they should do it to Joe Biden.

Well, those are two completely different things and different reasons.

SANCHEZ: From a cynical point of view, though, Tim, I think part of the reason perhaps Donald Trump wants an impeachment inquiry of Joe Biden is because he felt that it hurt him politically, and he's going into a tough reelection battle. So how much of this has to do with 2024?

NAFTALI: Well, Boris, I can't get inside his brain, but that makes perfect sense to me. It's distraction.

It's a -- it's to confuse the American people to say, look yes, people attack me, but look, they're also attacking Biden. It's a way of making -- of creating a cloud so that people don't understand the real charges that have been directed at former President Trump. And Americans are already cynical and doubtful about government and

this just raises their disbelief in government and so people say, oh, boy they're all bad. And that means that the choice that Americans probably will face, although it's not certain in 2024, the choice doesn't become a stark as I think the president is about to describe it being in his speech on democracy in Phoenix later today.

KEILAR: Yes, look, Trump is not in this room, Gloria, right? He's not -- he wasn't on the debate stage last night.

BORGER: He hovers.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: He is so present over all of this. He has called for a shutdown. He is certainly in favor of an impeachment. And it just really speaks to how much of a hold he has on the party even as he kind of extricates himself from some of the normal stuff like debating in a presidential election.

BORGER: Of course.

Look, and he's also -- his aides have said we shouldn't have any more debates, that they're ridiculous, and we should just get on with trying to defeat Joe Biden.

Donald Trump is a force here. And there's absolutely no denying it. He wants an impeachment inquiry. He has said that to kind of even the scales, right? And it was done to me. It should be -- it should be done to Joe Biden.

And I do think Tim is right. This is a way to muddy the waters and to say, OK, well, Joe Biden, maybe once was an impeachment inquiry. Well, maybe -- maybe Trump had two.

I just think it's politics at its most cynical, to tell you the truth. And one of the things I think that Joe Biden is trying to say today in the speech he's going to give is that it shouldn't be that way, that the guardrails are off, and we're in danger of losing -- he talks about losing democracy, but we're in danger of losing out a lot of things, a lot of other things, civility, for example, respect.

And politics has become more and more craven. And I think what we're seeing today is really exhibit A of that.

KEILAR: May have already lost civility and respect in many regards, right?

[13:30:00]