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Trump to Appear in Court Today; Trump Elects to Appear in Court; Increased Security at Courthouse; Trump Leaves for Court. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 02, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:38]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm John Berman, with Kate Bolduan and Sara Sidner.

The major breaking news this morning, a courtroom, a campaign and a corporation come together in dramatic fashion. Donald Trump is about to leave Trump Tower in Manhattan to be present for opening statements in a civil trial that could cost him control of much of his business empire.

Now, as you are watching everything unfold this morning, remember, in a sense this is a campaign event. Trump is choosing to be here. He did not have to attend this trial, but he is, and he is publicizing it. We're going to explain why.

And the first major ruling we expect in just a few minutes is whether cameras will be allowed in court.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This case centers on fraud, accusations of fraud, staggering fraud is how the attorney general of New York has put it, in a civil lawsuit brought by the New York AG. $250 million lawsuit against Donald Trump, his eldest sons, their companies and other Trump Organization executives. In the lawsuit the attorney general accuses Trump of falsely inflating his wealth by as much as $3.6 billion. She says that he engaged in decades-long fraud, essentially to pump up the value of his businesses to get better interest rates and secure better loans. Inflating values when it suited him and also deflating values when it helped him as well.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: The judge, by the way, has already ruled Trump and his adult sons committed fraud. Now it's about damages the Trumps may be forced to pay. Trump's future as a businessman, his real net worth and his real money is on the line. Trump says he is, quote, going to court this morning to fight for his name and reputation, but will he take the stand? He is on the witness list, as well as three of his children. His former fixer there, Michael Cohen, his former CFO, Allen Weisselberg, and former accountant. There is intense scrutiny, as you might imagine, in Manhattan right

now. We begin with CNN's Brynn Gingras, who is outside the courthouse in downtown New York City.

Brynn, what are you hearing this morning before this case gets going?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, listen, guys, there is immense security here, immense press presence. So, you can't see what's to my left but what is to my left is a podium for New York Attorney General Letitia James. We are expecting her to make some comments before she heads into the courtroom, which is going to be an interesting face-off when Trump does arrive, and as you guys just said, sit in the courtroom for the opening statements for his -- the civil trial as well. Remember, she is the one who brought this case against Trump, his organization, his adult sons, asking for $250 million and other penalties for falsifying business records allegedly for many of his fortune, his mass fortune, his business empire.

And it's going to be an interesting trial because he is also on her list of witnesses. He's on the defense side as well. But it's possible, and we are told he's eager to testify in his own defense, although we don't expect that to happen today.

What's also going to be noteworthy today is the fact that he is going to be in front of this judge. Now, remember, this judge made a huge ruling last week in deciding that he and his sons and Trump Org are liable for fraud in inflating some of those assets and striking some serious penalties, like stripping their business certificates, as well as saying that they are going to basically pave the road for the fact that they are going to owe the state of New York money.

So, Trump said he wants to be here, he wants to fight for his name and reputation, and he's going to see that judge face-to-face. And that is key because, remember, this is a bench trial. That judge is going to call the balls and strikes. He is going to decide the penalties. He is going to say how much money will be owed. It is not a jury trial, so there's a lot to look out for in these opening statements.

Again, we are waiting for Letitia James to come here to make some comments and we're also waiting for Trump to arrive as well.

Guys.

BERMAN: All right, Brynn Gingras down in lower Manhattan.

Brynn, it's great to have you there. Please let us know when and if you see any movements down there.

In the meantime, we have our eyes on Trump Tower in midtown Manhattan, about Fifth Avenue. Donald Trump will leave there shortly. He got there last night after a campaign event in Iowa. And as I mentioned before, one way to look at what we're about to see is as a continuation of that campaign event.

BOLDUAN: Right.

[09:05:03]

BERMAN: CNN's Kristen Holmes outside Trump Tower.

Kristen, explain to us this choice because, again, Trump does not have to go this morning. He has chosen to. Why?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John. So, I've talked to a number of his allies and advisers who say that Trump has become increasingly agitated about this specific trial, particularly the valuation of his properties made by the judge, who talked about how Trump has sold himself as a successful and rich businessman. It's not just his business, it's also his brand. And it's not just his social brand, it is his political brand.

When he was running in 2016, a big part of his argument to voters was, I am successful. Look at all of my riches. I can make you rich. I can do all the things for you that I've done for myself. Obviously, if he has been inflating that, that is going to conflict directly with the message that he has been sending about the kind of president he would be in the middle of a campaign again for president in 2024.

Now, you talk about this being a campaign event. It really is. Just moments ago, right before we started speaking, they blasted out an email attacking Letitia James, just like they would a political opponent. We know that they are weaponizing these trials, saying that these are because he is running for office, that these are Democrats, that this is election interference and it's going to be no different with this.

Now, I am told that he wanted to have a show of force by showing up today. Obviously, as we continue to say, he's not expected to testify today. But we are told that he has indicated to lawyers he would like to testify. Now, whether or not he'll be called, whether or not his lawyers would even allow him to do that, that remains to be seen. He often says that he would like to testify, but then ends up not doing so.

And then one post on Truth Social I just want to show you, because this is really part of this fixation here. Of course, he talks at the top here about, I'm going to court tomorrow to fight for my name and reputation. But then he goes on to say this, "he," being the judge, "values Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach," his home, "$18 million." This particular valuation has driven Trump crazy according to many people who have talked to him in recent weeks. He continues to say it's not true, that it's worth more money. And again, it goes to not just this idea of his business, but his brand as a person and as it relates to him running in 2024.

BOLDUAN: Kristen Holmes, thank you so much.

Kristen is where we will likely see Donald Trump first today. She -- he is going to be leaving Trump Tower and then heading to lower Manhattan. And Trump being back in Manhattan and headed to court also brings with it a whole host of security challenges as we've seen in the past.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is tracking that outside the court building in lower Manhattan.

Shimon, you were down there six months ago when Trump made a similar trip, if you will, to be arrested after his first criminal indictment. What are you seeing there today?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. And at that time this was a much more secure area. There was a lot more security. Remember, it was his really - really his first criminal court appearance and he was just -- it was just a block or so away from here, two blocks or so down this way is where he made that appearance where he went to the district attorney's office to surrender.

This is now at 60 Center Street. This is the civil court, the civil supreme court. And viewers looking at this courthouse may find it familiar because it's very famous. Many movies, "Law and Order" something that has been shot here.

What won't happen is that Mr. Trump will not be taking the 32 steps up into the courthouse. What we believe is going to happen is, he's going to be entering here on the side, on Pearl Street. There's an entrance here. There's Secret Service agents and NYPD officers all up and down this street because that is the street we believe he's going to go in. There's a side door there.

But when you look around, Kate, you can see, this is the area where a lot of the anti-Trump protesters have gathered. We are not seeing a lot of Trump supporters out here. We're mostly seeing just a few, there aren't many, anti-Trump supporters. And then when you look this way you can see more security all along here with NYPD and, of course, all of these barriers that are set up all across this courthouse and this street. They've blocked most of the street off to pedestrians. People can't really walk up and down the street. They're still allowing some traffic. But certainly we expect that to change as we get closer to the 10:00 hour when we expect the former president to arrive.

BERMAN: All right, Shimon Prokupecz, down in lower Manhattan. Keep an eye out there for us, Shimon.

In the meantime with us is Jessica Roth, former federal prosecutor for the Southern District of New York, and Elie Honig, former assistant U.S. attorney also for the Southern District of New York. Elie also happens to be CNN's senior legal affairs analyst. Also with us, legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

Elie, I want to start with you.

As we said, there's a political aspect to this. Trump does not have to be here in the courtroom this morning. But legally speaking, why would his team want him there or not?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, a couple reasons that you would want the party present.

[09:10:01] First of all, you may want to ask questions of your client as a lawyer. As testimony is given, as the judge asks questions, oftentimes you need to just lean over and go, is that true? What should we say in response?

The other thing is, you want your client there generally as a lawyer as a show of respect for the proceedings, as a show of respect for the trier of fact, for the judge. There's not going to be a jury in this case, but ordinarily you would want the jury or the judge to see the person there to say they care, they're invested in this.

Now, there's certainly going to be political calculations here, but those are the strategic legal reasons you would want your client to be present.

BOLDUAN: But then compare that to, he's had opportunities to show up in the past to show that respect for the process, if you will.

HONIG: Yes.

BOLDUAN: He did not show up to the civil trial that was against - the civil lawsuit having to do with E. Jean Carroll.

HONIG: Right.

BOLDUAN: He did not also show up when his - when Allen Weissenberg was facing his trial over fraud.

HONIG: Yes. Yes.

BOLDUAN: What is different than here?

HONIG: So, it's a great question. So, first of all, important that people understand, this is a civil case. You do have the option, as a defendant in a civil case, to show up or not show up. When his criminal cases get tried, separate cases, he will not have that option. He has to physically be in those courtrooms.

As for here, what's different as between let's say the E. Jean Carroll where he did not show up in this one -

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: That has to be a political consideration because the legal considerations here are really the same. And we'll see how long he lasts. I mean, look, that's a long day in court.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: It can get draining. And this is going to be several weeks of trial. So, it may be that he's there as some sort of show appearance, be there for a day or two, or part of the day, but we'll see.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

SIDNER: Jessica, this case isn't if Donald Trump and his sons committed fraud. The judge has already very pointedly said that. So, what is at stake here? Is it about damages that he may owe?

JESSICA ROTH, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: So, in large part, yes, it is about damages. What are going to be the penalties that the judge will impose for the persistent fraud that he has already determined when he granted partial summary judgement for the attorney general last week.

The attorney general has asked for $250 million in discouragement (ph) of profits that Trump and his related entities and adult children gained as a consequence of their fraudulent behavior. So I think probably, first and foremost, is going to be the amount of the penalties, monetary penalties. But then there are other penalties that the attorney general has sought as well, including barring Trump and his sons from holding certain offices, and corporate offices in the future in New York state, as well as just the mechanics of what's going to happen if the businesses are dissolved, as the judge has already ordered, what does that mean? Will there be a receiver appointed to unwind them? Can they have - still be the beneficial owners in certain ways? So, there are a lot of specifics to address. That may also be a reason, frankly, why Trump wants to be present, because this could be a fast-moving proceeding this morning on some of these issues and being able to consult with his attorneys in real time may be very useful.

BERMAN: Just talk a little more about that because I'm not sure people fully understand the stakes here. Donald Trump could lose control over a big part of his business enterprise. In fact, the status quo as things stand right now he has sort of lost control depending on what the judge does over the next few days or few months, correct?

ROTH: That's absolutely right. The judge has made a determination on liability and he's also said that he intends to essentially revoke the business certificate for these business entities. The questions that remain include which business entities. There are so many under the Trump Organization umbrella. And what will that mean? Will the properties have to be sold? Will Trump Tower have to be sold? Or can someone else, essentially a receiver, unwind it for them or hold on to it for them. So, there's lots of very significant, practical consequences still to be worked out.

BOLDUAN: Can you also put in context just the fact that Letitia James, the attorney general of New York, is seeking $250 million here. Just the scope of what he has been accused of in terms of the scope of inflating his wealth. The scope of the fraud that is accused.

HONIG: Yes, that's exactly what makes this very different from the other civil cases we've seen is the scope. The allegation here covers more than a decade worth of conduct. And when we talk about, in this complaint, in this ruling, the level of inflation, the judge actually says, look, people can differ in how they value a building. There is an element of subjectivity to that. People can differ by 10 percent, 20 percent. But here Donald Trump, at certain instances, inflated the value by 20 or 25 times.

The example that jumps out to me is Mar-a-Lago.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: (INAUDIBLE) physical plant (ph) of Mar-a-Lago. Assessed by the Palm Beach County Board of Assessors at roughly $20 million with a little bit of a range. Donald Trump claimed in his paperwork it was worth about $500 million. Twenty-five times greater. And that's why the judge in his ruling last week said, I find this -- even before we get to the trial - I find that on this one count there is fraud. This is a real existential threat to his business.

SIDNER: I need to ask you about what the critics are saying when they look at this case. Who was hurt? And you'll hear people saying, who got hurt in this case? Because it wasn't the insurers, although that's what Letitia James says. They are not plaintiffs in this case. It is brought by the state of New York. So, how does this play out if there aren't other people in this case who get the money?

[09:15:02]

HONIG: Yes, so that's a really important question to watch here. Donald Trump has said not only did no one lose money, these banks didn't lose money, they made money because I repaid these loans with interest. Letitia James' response essentially starts off with, fraud is fraud, massive fraud is massive fraud. You're getting -- you got way more money than you were entitled to at way better interest rates. So perhaps the banks did lose some in that respect. For the one count that was already decided against Donald Trump, the plaintiffs, the AG, does not have to show a loss. But for the other counts, they may have to show that. And that could be a contested issue at trial.

BERMAN: You're looking at live pictures right now, aerial shots, from outside Trump Tower. There appears to be some movement there. Donald Trump, very soon, could get into maybe that vehicle or one just like it.

BOLDUAN: Looks like one of his attorneys right there.

BERMAN: And he will be heading down to lower Manhattan to this civil trial, which he is choosing to be at. And, just to reiterate what everyone has been saying, this is a civil trial, not a criminal trial. This will cost him money and very well could cost him control of much of his business empire.

I want to bring in our senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid, who has been watching all of this unfold as well.

And, Paula, what's the view from inside the Trump legal world of all of this? I do have to say, the judge's summary judgment on this, declaring that fraud was committed, what, ten days ago, it seemed to catch the world by surprise. To what extent did it catch the Trump legal team by surprise and how have they adjusted?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a shock (INAUDIBLE). This is something that --

BOLDUAN: Here's Donald Trump right here, Paula, just to jump in really quick. SIDNER: He's getting into the back.

BOLDUAN: We're seeing Donald Trump getting in -- leaving Trump Tower, getting into the SUV. This is a lot of deja vus in what we saw six months ago when he was heading -- doing this exact same thing heading down to lower Manhattan to be arrested on his first - to face his first indictment.

Now back in New York, in that SUV, the motorcade will be leaving very shortly to make that similar trip down to lower Manhattan to head into the New York county courthouse.

Paula, continue.

REID: Well, Kate, you make a great point. I mean, this looks familiar. This is a choice. Most Americans would not be paying a lot of attention to this phase of this case right now if the former president was not going to attend today. That big decision that John was just referencing, finding that the former president and his elder sons and their company had committed fraud by inflating the value of their assets, that was a shock because as part of that they effectively gave the former president the corporate death penalty. They are trying to dismantle his company. Now, that will be appealed and that will take years.

But among the cases, most of the attention goes to the criminal probes and not the civil probes. So, for the former president to once again get in a motorcade, once again head to court, it's unclear how this is going to resonate with voters. There are certainly people in this country who believe the former president is a victim of a biased criminal justice system. They are the converted. They are with him. But there are also a lot of voters in this country that he needs to convert to win re-election. And it's unclear how they're going to feel about seeing him in court for at least the fifth time this year.

These images, they are a reminder of the baggage and the chaos that surrounds the former president. It is certainly understandable why he might want to show up as a person, as a citizen, as a businessman. I mean this cuts to the heart of his livelihood. His family's business. Their identity. You can understand why from that perspective he may want to go and observe these proceeds.

But as a candidate, it's going to be really interesting to see how this resonates with voters because he did not have to show up and in showing up he is bringing the attention of the world media, this white hot spotlight on to this hearing. I don't know that many people are going to be interested in the real like nitty-gritty of the damages and the punitive phase of this. But, again, it reminds people just how much legal baggage he has.

SIDNER: Paula Reid, thank you so much.

And, again, we're watching the Trump motorcade head to the courthouse where they will be in just a few minutes. There is a ton of security around that courthouse at this point in time. We are also expecting to hear from Letitia James, the person who

brought this case in the first place. And she's asking for $250 million in damages. Something that the judge will have to look at today, as well as Donald Trump and whether or not he's going to take the stand.

His children -- several of his children are also potential witnesses as well as his CFO, his accountant and his so-called fixer, who we've heard a lot from, Mr. Cohen. So, there are a lot of things at stake here as we watch this motorcade heading downtown to the courthouse.

BERMAN: We talk about the fact, Elie, that Donald Trump could be a witness in this case. And that does bear some explaining here. Because this is a civil case, he could be a witness for either side here.

[09:20:01]

Explain all that.

HONIG: Yes. In a criminal case the prosecutor cannot force the defendant, the person who's been charged, to take the stand. That would violate that person's Fifth Amendment right. He may choose to take the stand but he cannot be forced. This, however, is a civil case. So, the parties can force each other to take the stand. And Donald Trump actually appears on his own witness list and on the attorney general's witness list.

If and when it comes down to time for Donald Trump to testify, if the attorney general tries to force him on the stand, and his children - his adult children, who have been named in this case as well, Donald Trump will have two choices, one is to testify. And it's worth noting he already has given a deposition in this case. It's a videotaped deposition.

BOLDUAN: Right. Right.

HONIG: We've seen excerpts. They went quite poorly for him I think to put it in short. Or he could take the Fifth. He does have the right to take the Fifth Amendment. But, if he does that, because we're in New York in a civil case, the judge, if there was a jury, there's not a jury, but the judge in this case can use that against him. The judge can draw what we call an adverse inference, meaning, Donald Trump says I'm not testifying and take the Fifth. The judge is then entitled to say, well, I will assume the worst about what your testimony would have been.

BOLDUAN: John Miller is joining us as well, watching this WCBS chopper cam.

Once again, John, talk about -- I know you've got NYPD involved, you've got Secret Service involved, you have traffic stopped one way. I think they're probably maybe still on -- they might be heading on to the FDR now. But you have traffic continuing along the other side as life in Manhattan must continue. Talk about all the security, all the planning that has to go into this. JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well,

this has become a bit of a well-worn path. You know, they have had to bring him through New York on these cases a few times already. But what you're seeing is, as the motorcade moves through the street, it has the police escort, it has the Secret Service vehicles. And while the route, as you point out, is not a frozen route, as he would have received as president of the United States, and that's a motorcade that I used to actually be the leader of the team that put the New York part of that security together, what you do see is they were holding the intersections, they had motorcycle outriders to go ahead and stop traffic. They intend for him to arrive there no later than 9:45. So, he's going to enter the secure area, which is a locked-down area between the place where he's going, the state supreme court at 60 Center Street. Next door is the federal courthouse. So that side street is frozen, as are the streets behind it. So, they've got a built-in basically secure zone to bring him into, into that courtroom.

Now, the question for the NYPD, the question for the Secret Service is, right now they have him scheduled to show up at a hearing, which as Elie pointed out, he's not required to be at, and to hear these allegations and arguments. But how long is he going to stay? Is he going to be there all day through all the proceedings, or is he going to make that appearance and at some point say, OK, I've heard enough and I've made my appearance? So, they're in a very flexible mode in terms of when they have to move out of there and go back to Trump Tower. But so far the schedule has him staying overnight tonight and possibly returning to court tomorrow. So, we're in a little bit of a float when it comes to what that schedule is going to be.

As for demonstrators down there between the pro demonstrators and the anti-Trump demonstrators, the numbers are very small. They've created pens that keep the groups separated but within earshot of where they want to call out to and that is where we are now on this move.

SIDNER: Thank you so much, John Miller.

I do have a question. If Donald Trump does not stay, and I'll -- what happens? Because he's on the witness list, as are his children. So, what happens if he decides not to stay?

ROTH: So, if he is called as a witness, then he would have to appear. And the question is, just how orderly will it be? Will there be a break in the proceedings so that he can come in an orderly way? I suspect that both sides would give each other the courtesy of a heads up of when he's going to be on their witness list.

So, you know, he doesn't have to be physically present just to wait for that magic moment. But I imagine there would be notice to him so that he would be prepared to be in the courtroom when and if either side wants to call him to the stand.

And I imagine he may want to be there for some other witnesses testimony, too, because it is, of course, different to give testimony, especially testimony that's incriminating toward your former boss when he's physically present. So, I think that I could imagine him staying for some of the testimony of other witnesses as well. BOLDUAN: I also heard Michael Cohen being one of those people. Michael

Cohen had said - had said, I think it was just last night, that he planned on being in the courtroom today, too.

[09:25:02]

So, you've got that. You have a lot of these dynamics.

BERMAN: That could be the closest the two have come face to face in some time.

HONIG: Yes.

ROTH: Yes.

BERMAN: You're looking at live pictures of Donald Trump's motorcade moving southbound on the FDR without traffic, which, by the way, never happens. What you're seeing right now is something that doesn't happen in real life, ever, which is moving quickly on the FDR.

He's going to this courtroom. Opening statements. He will be present for the opening statements, we believe, which begin very shortly. We are waiting to hear if the judge will allow cameras for the opening statements. Normally they would not be allowed. This judge could decide to allow them. That would be a big deal. We could see this. And we'll certainly hear whether we can soon.

I want to talk a little bit more about the fact this is a bench trial. This is significant. This judge made a major ruling himself last week in summary judgment. The whole trial will be just him. Why?

HONIG: So, both parties have actually agreed, we're going to do this without a jury. We're going to let the judge rule from the bench, by the way, which is why we call it a bench trial.

Tactically why would you do that, especially if you're the defendant, in a civil case or a criminal case? Why would you agree to not have a jury?

BOLDUAN: Right.

HONIG: I could see a couple reasons. One is if you like the judge. It - you know, all judges are supposed to be right down the middle, but, little secret, sometimes there are judges that are seen as a little better for the prosecution, a little better for the defense, a little better for plaintiffs versus a civil defendant. So, that's reason number one.

Reason number two is, sometimes if you think your case that you're going to make is highly technical, is nuanced, is sort of procedural, that kind of argument may go better with a judge than with a jury of civilians.

BOLDUAN: Just looking -- I want to jump in real quick.

HONIG: Yes. BOLDUAN: This is the New York attorney general, Letitia James, who brought this civil lawsuit.

Let's listen.

LETITIA JAMES, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: Donald Trump and the other defendants have committed persistent and repeated fraud. Last week we proved that in our motion for summary judgment. Today, we will prove our other claims.

My message is simple, no matter how powerful you are, no matter how much money you think you may have, no one is above the law. And it is my responsibility and my duty and my job to enforce it. The law is both powerful and fragile. And today in court we will prove our case.

I thank you all for being here and, again, justice will prevail.

Thank you.

SIDNER: The New York attorney general. And she made no bones about it. No matter how powerful or no matter how much money you think you have, which I thought was interesting, no one is above the law.

BERMAN: That's a good catch there. She said "you think you have," which is part of this.

SIDNER: That is a good catch. She didn't say "have." That's right. It is a question over whether or not Donald Trump and his family inflated their worth, which the judge has decided they did. He has already done a summary judgment on this saying they did.

Can you give us some sense of what it will look like in the courtroom when the testimony happens, and when the witnesses take the stand. And if Donald Trump takes the stand, what happens?

HONIG: Yes, so any testimony sort of proceeds in three parts. There's the direct examination where his own lawyers, or whoever's put him on the stand, gets to question him. Then cross-examination, the other side gets to question him. And then usually there's some sort of rebuttal where the first side gets to come back.

There's actually an interesting question here, who is going to try to put him on the stand? Will the AG's office, they put their case on first. They're the plaintiffs. Will they say, we call to the stand Donald Trump, or will they give that a pass. And if they do give it a pass, will Donald Trump's team then say, we call to the stand Donald Trump? So there's a little bit of strategic maneuvering happening here.

But this is an open, public trial. This is open to the public. The doors are open. I'm sure the courtroom is more than overfilled.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: You know, I think a theory that I think we should all be able to see it on TV, but it is an open, public hearing. There will be direct-examination, cross-examination and then redirect examination. And bystanders, witnesses, sometimes can watch.

By the way, it's worth noting, judges sometimes say, if you're a potential witness in this case, I don't want you in the courtroom. I don't want you -

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: Let's say Michael Cohen hypothetically, I don't want you seeing Donald Trump's testimony because I don't want you tailoring your testimony around that. That's called a sequestration order. And so we may see something along those lines.

ROTH: And just to add also, the witnesses are under oath, right? So they take an oath to tell the truth under threat of penalty of perjury, right? So, I just want to add that in. So, that's part of the calculation certainly for Trump's lawyers of choosing to put him on the stand.

BOLDUAN: Let's -- but let us talk also really quickly, as we just heard from the New York attorney general herself, this morning Donald Trump's team, Donald Trump's -- I'm going to see if it's a campaign thing, I believe it's a campaign thing -- they put out a statement just attacking and eviscerating -- trying to attack Letitia James, literally was called meet Letitia James. Public statements that are made outside of the courtroom. He has similarly attacked the judge overseeing this case, calling it a sham, calling it -- him calling the judge unfair, unhinged and vicious. This is not a jury trial. This is a - this is a bench trial. The impact of that, Jessica, what do the impact - what does the impact of these public statements have as we head into it?

[09:29:59]

ROTH: Yes, it's still potentially injurious to the administration of justice. You know, the judge could give him at a minimum I think a very stern warning today and say stop doing this.