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Opening Statements Underway In Trump's Civil Fraud Trial; Rep. Adam Smith (D-WA), Is Interviewed About McCarthy's Speakership. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 02, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:02:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Donald Trump has already lost a big part of this case. Trump did not have to be there today, but he went. Later on, he might have to testify. Why did he go today? It was to appear before cameras as he was walking into the courtroom. He made a broad statement as he was walking in, no cameras inside. His opening statements are being made, but the pictures you're looking at right now the judge did allow some pictures to be taken before the opening statements. We do have reporters inside giving us real time updates.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Judge, in this case, we're learning from our reporters inside this courtroom. He said today he expects this trial to continue into December, three months possibly. This case is centered around $250 million lawsuit brought by New York's Attorney General Letitia James. Trump is accused of fraudulently inflating his net worth by billions of dollars in order to get better deals, better interest rates, and more favorable loans.

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: As you have heard from John, the judge has already ruled on a big portion of this case, basically all of the paperwork saying that the entities, all of them in this case, have committed fraud. Trump has said he is now in court this morning to fight for his name and reputation. And that is exactly what he did for several minutes outside of the courtroom, going after the judge, going after the AG. And then we heard just before he came to court, a message from AG Letitia James moments before she entered court. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LETITIA JAMES, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: My message is simple. No matter how powerful you are, no matter how much money you think you may have, no one is above the law. And it is my responsibility and my duty and my job to enforce it. The law is both powerful and fragile, and today in court, we will prove our case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Noted that she said how much money you think you have because the whole argument is that it was a false reporting of what they were worth. Let's get right to CNN's Brynn Gingras outside the court. Brynn, what are you hearing at this hour? I know you're getting a lot of information from inside court where there are no cameras that are allowed.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we have a bunch of colleagues, Sara, inside that courtroom giving us constant updates of what is going on right now. And what is going on right now is the state's attorneys laying out the opening statements of the case in this civil fraud trial, essentially bringing up old video depositions from earlier this year of Eric Trump, Donald Trump Jr., a former CFO of Trump Organization, Allen Weisselberg from Michael Cohen, basically trying to answer the question of who actually certified these financial statements and who is telling the truth here, at one point asking the question to the judge, are they lying now or are they lying then?

So this is going to be the heart of the case that you guys just laid out that is in front of this judge, not a jury, who is going to determine the damages if there is any sort of repercussions for any of these charges that are against Trump and his adult sons. As you guys mentioned, a big decision was made by this judge just last week regarding some of the elements of this trial.

[11:05:16]

And in that, the judge essentially stripped Trump Org and Trump and his sons from some of his business certifications. It's still unclear exactly what that is going to look like, but we could see more of that. We could also see a number of damages that will have to be paid out from Trump and his family. We know that Letitia James is going after $250 million. And she, quite frankly, would never like to see Trump and his sons work in the state of New York ever again. So these are the sort of the things we are expecting as this trial is expected to last until December.

It's unclear if it will take that long. But as far as what it looks like inside that courtroom, you guys just talked about how Trump made that statement before he entered the courtroom. There's a lot of drama inside because we have Letitia James, the New York attorney general who made that statement just behind me, then went in. She's sitting front row. Then you had Trump walk in. And right after he made those comments about James, but also about the judge, didn't address Letitia James at all, didn't give her a handshake, didn't even look at her. And then he sat down next to his attorneys.

We're told that he is conferring with his attorneys when he is hearing some of the things that the state's attorney is laying out. But otherwise sort of sitting back with his arms crossed, listening to this element of opening statements at this point. So it's going to be a long trial, guys, a lot of elements. But as you said, he wanted to be there at least today, maybe even tomorrow.

His attorneys, his people say he is eager to testify, to sort of bring his own defense to this trial. So we'll see if that happens. We don't expect that to happen today. It could happen sometime next week is what we're hearing right now. But of course that could change. But he is on the witness list for both the state's attorneys and his defense. BOLDUAN: Yes. There is a lot to be learned going forward when it comes to that witness list and who will take the stand, but also a lot to be learned yet still in court that is playing out right now. Brynn is going to be bringing us the details from inside the courtroom as we have some of our team sitting in there, and we're going to be reporting that out for us. So stick -- Brynn is going to stick close.

In the meantime, let's go over to CNN's Kristen Holmes. She's outside Trump Tower. Kristen, we know that Trump spoke at lengths to cameras before going into the courtroom. What are you hearing about what that says and how that is indicative of how he could be trying to use this, this legal fight in his 2024 campaign?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, I was originally told by Trump advisors that Trump wanted to be there because he wanted a show of force, that he wanted to look the judge in the eye. But it was very clear when he got out of his car, he knew exactly where the cameras were, that this was intended for optics. He not only knew and walked over to the cameras, but he also waited for the cameras to roll.

They knew how many seats were pressed inside of that room. They were following closely the judge's ruling, whether or not the hallway was going to have a camera and if there was going to be a camera allowed for opening remarks. And that's because Donald Trump is the master of optics. He wants to play this out in the Court of Public Opinion, not necessarily in the actual courtroom.

And I've been asking advisors for months, how are you going to navigate him going to trial, various trials that he is facing, and running a campaign in 2024, which obviously in itself is rigorous. And they really didn't have answer. They told me that they were talking about ways to do so. But it does appear that with this, they have found at least one way to do so, which is turning these trials into somewhat of a campaign event.

And I talked to one advisor who almost acknowledged that, saying that, yes, that is what they were doing. Right as Donald Trump was leaving Trump Tower, they put out a statement attacking Letitia James, almost exactly what you would see in a political statement attacking a political opponent. So clearly, this is how they are maneuvering this. It's unclear how it's going to continue.

And as we have continued to report, yes, this is helping him with his base when it comes to these legal issues, when it comes to him painting himself as a victim, saying that this is election interference. But what does that actually look like in a general election? We just don't have any idea. And even people close to Trump acknowledge that this kind of constant coverage of Donald Trump could actually be a bad thing for the former president in a general election because of Trump's fatigue, which polling shows is a real thing. But right now, it appears that they are really honing in on this and using it to their benefit as he runs for president again in 2024.

BERMAN: All right, Kristen Holmes outside Trump Tower, thank you very much. We got a lot of people to talk to. I want to start with CNN legal analyst Karen Friedman Agnifilo. She's the former chief assistant district attorney at the Manhattan DA's Office. Donald Trump, before he went into that courtroom, which he did not have to be at, spent many, many minutes attacking the judge, attacking the Attorney General making big, broad statements and choosing to be there today when he doesn't have to.

[11:10:06]

My question to you is, would he be doing this at all, saying these things, doing these things, conducting this performance, had he not already lost this case if he did not know that this is going against him? In other words, he's got nothing left to lose. So I'm going to make this about the campaign.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it sure seems like that, right? He knows that he's already lost the judge. He's already lost the biggest count against him being brought by the attorney general. And so now he's trying to win in the Court of Public Opinion. He's trying to win over the hearts and minds of the American people because there are no cameras in the courtroom, and so the cameras are not going to be able to show what the evidence is. And so he wants to get his story out that's very one sided without people being able to see what's really being presented in court.

SIDNER: I want to go ahead and look at the claims that are made here. There are seven claims still undecided, and a lot of it goes to intent. And so I'm curious to you, Elie, when you look at these claims, this is very different from what the judge has already decided, correct? That was only the paperwork, only the forensic accounting that he looked at, not at intent. Is it just harder to prove? Is it not?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So there are seven claims total in this case. Donald Trump and his team have already lost on count one persistent and repeated fraud. That is a very broad law that an AG can use in a situation like this. There are six other counts here, all relating to falsifying business records, falsifying financial statements, and insurance fraud, and then conspiracy to commit those three offenses.

There's two big differences between what's still in play and what the judge has already ruled on. The first one is levels of intent. The count the judge has already ruled against Trump on does not require a high level of intent. It doesn't really require any showing of intent by Donald Trump, so long as his name's on the documents and the money went to him. That's number one.

And the second one is what we call materiality. But what that means in real terms is, did these statements, these misstatements matter to anybody? Was there a victim? Was there some loss? Is somebody out of pocket? Again, for account one, which the AG has already won on, Trump is already lost on, materiality does not matter. But for the remaining six counts, it does matter. That's going to be more difficult for the AG to prove.

BOLDUAN: Caroline, I want to get your perspective on what Kristen Holmes is reporting out, that they're turning these trials into campaign events. What does that do?

CAROLINE POLISI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, I think it's a real shame that we just got this late breaking decision by the judge. There will not be cameras in the courtroom because that would serve as sort of a counterexample to some of these, you know, courtroom step presser events that are taking place, because certainly that's not going to happen inside the courtroom.

There are things, you know, you can read a transcript, you know, you can get reporting from inside there. And certainly CNN has, you know, a lot of people there. But there are sort of ineffable things that you get just by observing a courtroom a glance, you know, the way somebody is seated, whether or not we're hearing about sort of tis James and her eye contact with or, you know, not with Donald Trump, things like that I think are really important.

But no, this is political theater. You know, the press conference that Trump just gave, I don't think we carried all of it because it was, you know, not really pertinent to actually the case at hand.

BOLDUAN: If this continues, does that impact the judge in how, I mean, the facts are the facts, right? And what happens in the courtroom is clearly very different from what they see outside the courtroom.

POLISI: Yes.

BOLDUAN: But does it impact, does it have bearing inside the courtroom if he's turning this into a campaign event?

POLISI: No. It shouldn't. The answer is no, it absolutely should not. And I think that this judge will do a good job of sort of keeping the court and the public opinion sort of separate. However, you know, we've been talking about this before. It could only impact the courtroom when it sort of veers off into that tips over the balance of, you know, potentially interfering with witnesses when sort of danger comes into play. If he's actually, you know, advocating violence, for example, things like that.

You know, we're seeing that aspect of it play out in some of his federal cases about, you know, where to, you know, really rein him in on his First Amendment rights.

BERMAN: You know, we mentioned the reporting issue not -- Donald Trump when he walked in, did not look the Attorney general in the eye. We're not sure why, but one reason could because she beat him already in this case. She has won, at least for now, until appeals. The key part of this case, he has been found to have committed fraud. And right now part of what we're seeing now is a trial to determine how much he's going to have to pay and how much business control he will lose over that.

I want to bring Jeff Zeleny into this conversation, who's been watching alongside as well, you know, and Trump knows that. Trump knows he has lost in this courtroom substantially already, and he's choosing to turn a different political corner here, Jeff.

[11:15:03]

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He is. And John, this is really an interesting window into this. He could continue to -- he's obviously trying to continue to spin the events of his legal cases that are certainly different than what is -- the substance of which is happening in the courtrooms there.

He's not sharing with any of his supporters, you know, through fundraising appeals or through his statements that he did lose this first case. So this is at some point, these two competing strategies, I guess, if you will, the politics and the actual legal cases going on there are going to collide here, and there is going to be a real time interpretation of what happens there.

At some point, there will be a finding of innocence or guilt in all of these cases. But for now at least, the former president's presidential campaign is simply trying to do one thing, and that is to run out the clock until voting begins and consume all the oxygen in the field so none of his rivals can break through.

He is campaigning in early states on weekends. He is in the courtroom today when he certainly does not have to be. So this is part of this campaign. They simply are intertwined. There is no differentiation. There's no daylight between his presidential campaign and his illegal activities, no matter how many times we say that here.

So we will just have to see how this plays out, how voters view all of this, how this is sort of explained through conservative media, how they are getting a sense of what is actually happening here. But I think we know. I mean, one thing that we've always known about the former president, I mean, his finances, his stature at Trump Tower as the chairman of the board, if you will, has always been the centerpiece of his identity. If that is stripped away, that could be very damaging to him, at least personally. But politically, who knows?

BOLDUAN: Jeff Zeleny, you rock as always, thank you. Stick with us. Everyone, please stick with us as well. This hearing continues. Donald Trump before a judge in lower Manhattan, this is continuing as we speak. Again, this is the video we have from a short time ago when cameras were allowed in briefly to show the president, the former president, right there in a Manhattan courtroom. We're getting new developments coming out of court. We're going to bring those to you as well.

We were also following some important news out of Capitol Hill. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, yes, found a way to avoid a government shutdown hours before that was supposed to set in this weekend. But the way he pulled it off, he worked with Democrats in a bipartisan way in order to avoid that government shutdown, what this now means for his job as speaker. We have new reporting from Capitol Hill on Kevin McCarthy's approach this week. We'll take you there.

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[11:22:20] SIDNER: New this morning, we're learning top House Republicans are planning to try to block Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz's attempt to oust House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Gaetz is threatening to file a motion to remove McCarthy this week. It's all happening because the Speaker relied on Democratic votes to pass a short term funding bill over the weekend and avoid a government shutdown.

GOP hardliners have been threatening to oust McCarthy if he reached across the aisle, and he did. CNN's Manu Raju joins us now from Capitol Hill. Manu, I hear you have some brand new reporting for us. What is the plan going forward?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, in fact, I asked the Speaker just moments ago about whether or not he will actually need Democratic votes in order to maintain the speakership. That is a big question now in the days ahead, because as soon as today, Matt Gaetz could actually file a motion to kick McCarthy out of the speakership, and he would need, Gaetz would, five Republicans decide with him if all Democrats vote also to eject McCarthy from the speakership?

So if Democrats decide for some reason to help Kevin McCarthy, perhaps by some deal cutting or some concessions that they make it could save McCarthy's speakership. And moments ago, I just asked the Speaker. If he's refusing to cut a deal with Democrats in order to save his speakership. And he would not say directly. In fact, he -- this is what -- I'll read you exactly what he said just moments ago. He said, I think this is about the institution.

I think it's too important that's when I said, are you refusing to cut a deal with Democrats? He went on to say, anytime that somebody has an ethics complaint and they can get the way they want about it, they can just roll up and one side is going to park with five people. Decide that I -- and decide what to do, I don't think that's good for the House. That was in reference to Matt Gaetz, who's under an ethics investigation. He is accusing McCarthy, as Gaetz, of pushing him out, trying to push him out of the speakership because Gaetz is facing this ethics probe, something that Gaetz himself has denied.

So McCarthy is trying to make an appeal to the institution, saying, we need to save the institution. The question will be if Democrats agree with that. This has never happened in American history, a successful vote to oust the sitting speaker. But it is a very real threat at the moment because any one member can call for a vote. Gaetz has promised to do that this week, as soon as today. And that could be on the House floor within two legislative days.

It could happen as soon as today to try to -- the Speaker's team may try to kill it on a procedural vote as soon as today. So a lot of moving parts here, and one key thing here, Sara, Democrats themselves have not taken a position on what to do. They are weighing this. The leadership team, Hakeem Jeffries, are having a lot of discussion with their members about whether to help McCarthy -- McCarthy himself said he has not spoken to Jeffries yet about this, but those discussions undoubtedly will take shape, and as you heard there from the speaker, not ruling out working with Democrats to save his perch atop the House.

[11:25:15]

SIDNER: It's very interesting. There's at least one Democrat who said it's going to be expensive. I do not come cheap when it comes to this, so deals will have to be made if that happens. Manu Raju, thank you so much for your new reporting. John?

BERMAN: And joining us now is Democratic Congressman Adam Smith. Congressman, thank you very much for being with us. It does look very much like there will be a vote one way or another on keeping Kevin McCarthy as speaker. How do you plan to vote on keeping Kevin McCarthy?

REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): I haven't decided yet. I mean, first of all, I will listen to our leadership Leader Jeffries and the caucus to figure out what the best approach is. Look, one of the problems, you know, I heard your quote about a member of the Democratic caucus saying they wouldn't come cheap.

McCarthy has made it clear that he doesn't keep his promises. He promises whatever he has to get through the moment. And then the second that moment is done, he wipes the slate clean and starts over. So there's really nothing he can quote, promise us that's going to make any difference. I mean, he made a deal on the debt ceiling, on what the appropriations bill should look like and bailed on that the second it wasn't convenient.

So promises aren't going to get us there. And for Kevin McCarthy to be talking about protecting the institution, the guy who ultimately sided with Trump and the insurrectionists over January 6th, it's really hard to see Speaker McCarthy as a credible figure in any of this.

BERMAN: How much do you trust Kevin McCarthy?

SMITH: I don't. I mean, it's just how it plays out. Look, you know, I mean I've been in those rooms where you have to make deals with, you know, know the other side, whether it's the Senate or the Republicans. And every time you do that, you know that some members of your own caucus aren't going to like it, but you stand by the agreement because that's how the institution works.

Kevin McCarthy does not do that. I mean, he will make a promise to you and he will break it the second it's in his best interest to do that. And so we have to factor that in as we're figuring out how to vote on this. Now, all of that said, as bad a speaker as Kevin McCarthy is, as a friend of mine likes to say, it can always get worse. And we have to contemplate that. What is the alternative? What will happen if McCarthy's not speaker anymore? It's bad enough while he is. We've seen the chaos of the first eight months, nine months, whatever it is. But, you know, we have to calculate what would come next.

BERMAN: Do you have any thoughts on that? What do you think would come next?

SMITH: Well, yes, I do have thoughts on that. They're not fully formed at this point because this is an unprecedented situation, but it seems likely that if McCarthy was ousted as speaker, the Republicans -- we would go through an extended period of time without a speaker because the Republicans would have to try to figure that out. How extended a period of time? What are the consequences of not having a speaker? Because as I understand it, the rules of the House are that once you -- if you don't have a speaker, you can't do anything else until you get one. We saw that last January.

So vote after vote, after vote, after vote trying to get to 218 for a speaker, what are the implications of that? That's something that I'm weighing as well. But look, again, I want to emphasize Speaker McCarthy brought this on himself. He sided with Trump and the insurrectionists. He's broken his word countless times, and he's governed from the far right.

I mean, Democrats are supposed to be excited about a speaker whose plan for the continuing resolution was to cut everything but defense by 30 percent, to cut housing, to cut education, to cut DEA agents, to cut health care by 30 percent. That was his plan. And this is the guy we want running the House. I mean, from my perspective, from a Democrat's perspective, you can see why we would have a problem with that.

BERMAN: One of the things that's not part of this continuing resolution is funding, new funding for Ukraine. What, if anything, could Kevin McCarthy promise on that would make you feel better about voting to keep him?

SMITH: Well, let me help you here. He can't promise anything. He can do some things. And that's one other possibility here, you know, we too, any member of the House can make the motion to vacate. And the way I would look at it is the two big things that I would want right now is a vote on a supplemental for Ukraine and the passage of appropriations bills. Because, as you well know, we just bought ourselves until November 17th, we face another shutdown. We don't have appropriations. Continuing resolutions are terrible.

So the two big things that I would want is a vote on a supplemental to support Ukraine and passage of the appropriations bills. You know, maybe we reject Matt Gaetz's motion to vacate now, but say we will be happy to entertain that motion if you don't get those two things done. So, again, I wouldn't take anything that Kevin McCarthy promises if he does something, if he actually delivers something