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McCarthy Won't Rule Out Cutting Deal With Dems To Stay Spraker; Opening Statements Underway In Trump's Fraud Trial; Any Minute: Rep. Gaetz To Speak On His Move To Oust McCarthy. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired October 02, 2023 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): Motion if you don't get those two things done. So again, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't take anything that Kevin McCarthy promises. If he does something, if he actually delivers something, that's a different conversation.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: You know --

SMITH: You know, believing in a promise from him, just doesn't seem like a smart thing to do.

BERMAN: I've been covering Congress in different ways for many, many years. What's unusual this time, it really does seem like you're working through this. It really doesn't seem like you're a hundred percent sure where you're going to be tomorrow or even six hours from now, depending on how things play out.

SMITH: I've been doing this for a long time too. And I guess I'm a little weird. I like to be honest with people about what I'm thinking and where I'm coming from. I think it is the best approach. And that's the honest balancing assessment.

Look, there's this huge pile of stuff against Kevin McCarthy being a speaker. And literally, the only thing that guy's got going for him is the situation could possibly be even worse without him. And that's what we need to think about is what are the exact implications. And like I said, substance matters here. Passed the appropriations bills. Give us a vote on the Ukraine supplemental. That's substantively what matters.

Whatever personality conflicts Matt Gaetz and Kevin McCarthy have going on, that may be fascinating for television. But we Democrats are interested in governing the country and governing it effectively. And that's what we're going to be focused on

BERMAN: Covering effectively when all is said and done here. If Democrats emerge from this without any of the things you just mentioned, how will you feel about that?

SMITH: How will I feel about that? Well, obviously, I'll be disappointed. But look, you know, control what you can control. You know, the notion that we Democrats are in the minority in the House and have control of the situation is completely wrong. We don't. You know, we're going to try to influence. We're going to try to move it in the right direction, you know. As we go through this, it motivates me more and more to try to make sure that Democrats retake the House next year, so that the House can actually function. I mean, regardless of where you're at on the ideological spectrum, a minimum that I think we would all like is to have a functioning House.

And Speaker McCarthy and more broadly, the entire Republican Caucus, this is not just on McCarthy, they picked him. They have allowed Matt Gaetz to influence the process to the degree that they have. We need different leadership in the House and you need Democratic leadership in the House if we're going to get back to any sort of sensible governance.

BERMAN: Congressman Adam Smith, I really do appreciate your time. I think you've given us a really good sense of where things stand, at least on your side of the aisle as we sit here at 11:31 Eastern time on Monday. I think every hour that passes, things may develop here, and we --

SMITH: Things may change. Yes.

BERMAN: Keep us posted as to what you hear. We appreciate it, Congressman. Thank you.

SMITH: Thanks for the chance.

BERMAN: Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: That was really interesting and also presents what seems to be Democrats feel that they have some real leverage in what could be happening next if Kevin McCarthy keeps or loses his post. Also coming up next. We're going to go back to court in lower Manhattan where we are learning new details from inside about what was -- what's going on during these opening statements, and also what the New York's Attorney General's Office is asking of the judge in these opening statements against Donald Trump, as he now sits for his civil fraud trial. We'll be back.

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[11:38:00]

BOLDUAN: Right now, former President Donald Trump is at a New York courtroom where opening statements are underway in his civil fraud trial. The former president is accused of falsely inflating the value of his business -- value of his business empire, his net worth by billions of dollars in order to get better business deals, more favorable interest rates, and more favorable loans. The New York Attorney General is asking for him to pay $250 million in penalties amongst other things.

What video you're looking at right there is Donald Trump making a statement to the cameras before he went inside the courtroom. And we've just learned more from what's happened since this hearing and this trial has gotten underway. CNN's Brynn Gingras is standing by for us once again. Brynn, the A.G.'s office really just laid out what they hope the judge will do here.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it took a little less than an hour to do so. I want to go through what's happening right now though, Kate, and then I'll talk about that. Right now, we're actually hearing from Trump's attorneys and their side of opening statements essentially saying here that there were no attempts to defraud, there were no unjust profits made and there are no victims in this case.

Essentially saying Donald Trump built a huge empire and he did it all, you know what -- rightly so. Essentially saying that he didn't do anything that was against any rules and he performed all the right sort of maneuvers in order to make money. And so, we're -- this is the crux of their case, right? This is how they are trying to defend their clients.

We know that Donald Trump is sitting there at that table with his attorneys weighing in on what they're saying as they're giving these opening statements. But prior to that, you're right, we heard about, like I said, an hour or so, less than from the State's Attorneys saying that they did defraud or that they brought out financial statements and lied on those financial statements.

We saw video depositions from multiple members of the Trump family including the former president, his adult sons, and members of the Trump Organization, including the former CFO, Allen Weisselberg. And the State's Attorneys asking the questions of when they were lying. Were they lying then or are they lying now?

[11:40:04]

So, these are some of the things that we are hearing from inside that courtroom as these opening statements continue. And -- sorry, I'm just getting some information from my -- from my producer here saying that Trump actually is standing and he's leaving in the middle of these opening statements that are happening. And there is a 10-minute break so he's actually leaving that courtroom so not sure if we'll actually get my colleague down here to give some more information.

Kara Scannell. She's inside the courtroom. But again, just a 10-minute break during those opening statements, so we're still trying to get that information.

But, guys, the crux of this case is obviously laid out in these opening statements. A lot of questions as to what -- if there was any fraud. We know that the judge made a huge ruling last week, saying that there was fraud in some of the elements of this case, and penalizing Trump and his sons and the Trump Organization, taking away some of the business certifications, as well.

And we'll see if he hands down huge penalties in the amount of dollars. That's one thing that the State's Attorneys did say before they wrapped up their side of the thing saying that they don't -- they want -- they asked the judge to bar the Trump family from doing business in the state of New York.

So, again, things are very fluid right now. Of course, we're going to continue to get you updates from inside that courtroom. But a lot being laid out about how this case is going to look. And we're hearing it could last as long as three months. And we do fully expect guys Trump to take the stand at some point.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And while you're speaking, and we're looking at one of the live cameras from outside the courtroom, Brynn, and we do see as you've been reporting -- as you just reported, looks like they have started to break as we're seeing people leaving court. And it does look almost like they're setting up for the -- for Donald Trump himself to be walking out soon as well. We're going to keep our eye on this, Brynn.

One thing that I'm seeing from our colleagues in the courtroom, also reporting that for the attorney general's office in their opening statement, they asked the judge to bar Donald Trump from doing business in New York. That's one of -- that's on top of financial penalties that they already have clearly already sought. That would be such a blow to Donald Trump, the business, the organization, the Empire, and the brand.

GINGRAS: Yes. Kate, I'm sorry. You're still talking to me, right?

BOLDUAN: Yes, absolutely. Go ahead, Brynn.

GINGRAS: Sorry. Yes. So no, that is -- that's one of the things that we also don't know what's going to happen next after the judge's ruling last week. As I said, the business certifications from Trump, his sons, and the Trump Organization were stripped and it's -- the -- last week during a hearing, the judge gave Trump's attorneys another 30 days to figure out exactly what that would look like. So, that's very unclear where that stands right now.

But yes, just before they finished those opening statements, they said that they do want to bar the Trumps from doing business in New York, and this is where his empire, you know, started. So, it's very unclear as to what the future of the Trump Organization and the wealth of the Trumps will look like after this trial is finished. You remember it's a very significant trial. And like you said, the Attorney General is asking for $250 million, which doesn't seem much to the Trumps.

But the judge is the one who makes the discretion of how much he's going to penalize for finding whichever way he chooses on these issues at hand in this trial. So, it's going to be significant. And it's so interesting, as we watch the beginning of this, before opening statements even started about how Trump made all these comments, attacking James as he hasn't been shy about doing, attacking the judge, which again, he hasn't been shy about doing, not even addressing Letitia James when he walked into the courtroom today. And you know the judge is the one who's going to make those decisions, not a jury. So, we're going to certainly see how that all plays out.

Another thing. When we talk about him testifying, we also could hear from his sons as well. His attorneys saying that they're going to be bringing people to the stand that are going to show that the way he did, they filled out all these financial statements that they are just everyday things that happened in the state of New York, that they were completely OK, and there was nothing wrong about them.

So, it's going to be a lot of interesting testimony, although it's very confusing, right, because it has to do with all these financial statements. But at the heart of the case here is did they commit fraud, they knowingly commit fraud, the judge making that huge ruling last week saying that they did. So, we'll see how it continues to play out.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Brynn, thank you for bringing us details from inside the court as we continue to look. Now, that they're in break, I'm expecting that Donald Trump will be leaving the courtroom sometime soon. Caroline and Elie are here with us once again. What we heard from Trump's attorney as Brynn was laying out, no victims, there was no intent to defraud, there was no unjust profits, and there were no victims.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. That is a valid defense to the remaining counts.

[11:45:03]

Again, important to note, that the judge has already ruled in favor of Donald Trump before the trial on one of the counts, but these are the remaining counts. That is a valid defense. I want to hear what the A.G.'s response to that is going to be.

Another really important thing. The fact that this is not a jury trial, changes everything. It changes everything about the public statements. It changes everything about the way you would give your opening statement in court. It changes everything about what witnesses you're going to call, how you're going to cross-examine them because now you're making your case not to, in this case, six civilians, but to not just the judge, but a judge who knows this case. He's probably the foremost expert on this case. So, that really changes the entire atmosphere here.

BERMAN: And we saw how brief the opening statements were compared to what we're used to here. And that may speak to what Elie's talking about.

CAROLINE POLISI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, the judge doesn't have to get up to speed on anything. You know, to your -- to your point, Kate, this first sort of landmark decision in the summary judgment that the judge ruled on last week, it's kind of a unique statute in that the pervasive fraud, typically in fraud charges. The hallmark of a fraud charge would be some sort of intent to defraud would be the victim. This is more of what we call sort of a strict liability charge.

And that really, the judge was able just to look at the facts, he's already the -- you know, is going to be ruling on the law. But for this bench trial, he's also the finder of fact. He looked at the you know the receipts as it were, and said, no. This is -- this is fraud, as a matter of law. And as a matter of fact, this is fraud, and we don't need to move forward with that count.

Now, for the, you know, issue of intent on these other issues. I think, you know, there are five individual defendants here on top of all of the entities, you know. I don't anticipate it, but we definitely could see sort of a blame game going on sort of a finger pointing specifically maybe with Allen Weisselberg.

I expect there to be some sort of advice of accountant defense you know saying, look I just -- I signed papers, there was no intent on my part. I was just doing what people told me to do. But it'll be interesting to see if there are any antagonistic defenses here, pointing the finger. It wasn't me it was him.

BERMAN: One of the things that happened in court during the first opening statements by the state, Kevin Wallace, the attorney for the A.G.'s office, he says, Look. They all tried to distance themselves from who was the preparer of the statements of financial condition. And then he played a deposition from Donald Trump, who specifically pointed out that Weisselberg oversaw the statements preparations, and Donald Trump said, I would say yes. And at the end, he said, Look. The defendants are left to answer the question, are you lying then or are you lying now? How do you defend against that?

BOLDUAN: Right. Well, the first thing you do is you don't get on the stand, which sounds like Donald Trump is planning on doing that. Again, we've heard that before. He then walked it back. But you know, certainly, I would advise against it, because it is a civil trial, he does have the ability to plead the fifth, however, we can -- the judge can take what's called a negative inference from that, in a -- in a criminal case, he wouldn't be allowed to do that. But because it's a civil trial, he can basically assume the worst. So, if Trump says, I'm not answering that to you know, protect my fifth amendment right against self-incrimination because there are -- lord knows there are pending criminal investigations, which he has every right to do. The judge can then think that you know, and use that as part of his decision in this trial that the answer would have been bad so. You know, it's a loss really,

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: Just pick.

BERMAN: Elie, 25 seconds or less. The prosecutors may clearly from the beginning that Donald Trump's business empire has control over it is at stake or what they want to be at stake in this

HONIG: Yes. Let's make no mistake about it. He could be hit with a massive monetary judgment but more importantly, probably he could lose his business certification, he could lose his ability to do business in New York, and hence that could radiate outwards across the country.

BOLDUAN: Alright guys, we're going to continue to watch. This as court will be getting back into session after a 10-minute break what the -- and we will continue to bring you details from inside the courtroom. Donald Trump, his business empire on trial right now.

We've also just learned that Congressman -- Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz, he is set to speak on the House floor in the coming minutes. This summit his feud -- ongoing feud with House Speaker Kevin McCarthy in the aftermath and the fallout This is one of could be one of the ripple effects of what was a narrowly avoided gun government shutdown this weekend. What he might say? We shall learn. Next.

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[11:53:55]

SIDNER: Congress were headed for yet another battle after narrowly avoiding a government shutdown. Minutes from now, Congressman Matt Gaetz who promised he was going to do this is expected to speak on the floor House as he has threatened to try to oust the House Speaker, Kevin McCarthy. He said he does intend to file a motion to vacate. That is what he said this weekend. And it is all because McCarthy avoided a government shutdown by working with Democrats.

BERMAN: Kevin McCarthy's job was on the line.

SIDNER: It is.

BERMAN: Right now, Kevin McCarthy might lose his speakership. The process of all of this may begin just minutes from now. Let's go right to Capitol Hill. Manu Raju is there. Manu, give us the latest.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Matt Gaetz is actually right now in the House chamber, and we do expect him to speak after -- right after the House gavels in at noon. The question will be whether or not he actually files that motion to try to kick Kevin McCarthy out of speakership. Something that has never been successfully executed in the history of the country, but one in which Gaetz could have the votes to do just that. He would need more than four Republicans to join with them if all Democrats agree that it's time for Kevin McCarthy to go.

[11:55:02]

And that is the big question at the moment. How will Democrats deal with this and whether they will cut a deal with McCarthy in order to save the speaker? I asked McCarthy just moments ago about whether or not he is open to cutting a deal with Democrats, and he sidestepped the question.

Apparently, we don't have the sound. But he said -- the speakers essentially said that he is more concerned about the institution more than he is about anything else at the moment. Not saying one way or the other if Democrats, in fact, would get behind this effort. And that remains to the question.

Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader has been keeping his party -- powder dry about how to proceed. And a lot of the rank-and-file members will take their cue from the Democratic leadership. Procedurally, the next step here is expected to be an effort by the House GOP leadership to try to kill this effort to kick the speaker out of his speakership. And that will require a majority vote in the House. Could happen within two days as early as today, so we'll just see what Gaetz does here in a matter of moments, but a very significant moment on the floor of the House, guys.

SIDNER: And we should mention, it has been a hundred years since the speaker's gavel has been challenged. More than a hundred years. Manu Raju, thank you for all your reporting.

BOLDUAN: Kevin McCarthy making it easier in order to get the speakership. The -- this ends him up in the same place we've talked about before between a rock and a hard place of his own design. Let's see what happens in the next hour.

Thank you so much for joining us. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "INSIDE POLITICS" is next.

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