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Gaetz On Effort To Oust McCarthy: "Stay Tuned"; Gov. Newsom Appoints Laphonza Butler As Interim Senator; In Wake Of Suspension Of U.S. Aid, Senior Ukrainian Official Says U.S. Must Choose Between Dark & Light; Fulton County DA Subpoenas Ex-NY Police Commissioner. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired October 02, 2023 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Now Melanie Zanona is live for us on Capitol Hill.

Melanie, how is Kevin McCarthy responding to all of this?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Kevin McCarthy is ready for this showdown. He knew this fight was going to come the moment he put the funding bill on the floor that won the support of most of Democrats.

And this threat has been hanging over his head the entire speakership. And frankly, McCarthy and his allies are ready to get it over with.

But even though Speaker McCarthy does have the support of the majority of his Republican conference, the reality is, Boris, he will need some Democrats to step in and side with him just because of the way the slim majority works.

We asked Kevin McCarthy earlier today whether he would cut a deal or offer any concessions to Democrats to get them to side with him. He did not answer directly.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Look, I think this is about the institution. I think this is important. Anytime somebody has a complaint, they want to go after me. (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: It is unclear what Democrats are going to do. There are some differing viewpoints within the Democratic caucus about how to proceed.

I would say the majority of Democrats don't trust Kevin McCarthy, don't want to save him, don't like that he launched an impeachment inquiry into Joe Biden. Don't like how he handled this weekend, frankly, about putting this bill on the floor at the last minute after refusing to work with Democrats for weeks and weeks, leading up to the shutdown deadline.

But there are some moderate Democrats who just don't want to throw the House into chaos.

And they are in talks with some of the rank-and-file moderate Republicans about what they could potentially do to come to some sort of deal where they could vote either present, which would make it harder for Gaetz to proceed, or to vote to table it, which essentially would kill it. So that's something we're looking out for.

But as of this point, Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader, is counseling his members to keep their powder dry. And they're expected to talk about it as a caucus this week. So all eyes are on Hakeem Jeffries -- Boris?

SANCHEZ: All of this happening with another potential government shutdown looming just 45 days away.

Melanie Zanona, thank you so much.

Plenty more news to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Ahead, big shoes to fill. The California governor just announced his handpicked replacement for late Senator Dianne Feinstein. Big news from out west, when we come back.

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[13:37:05]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: A lot of news coming off Capitol Hill. And we turn to the Senate where a new member has been named. California Governor Newsom appointing Laphonza Butler to fill the seat left vacant by the death of Senator Dianne Feinstein.

National correspondent, Kyung Lah, is tracking this from Los Angeles.

Kyung, what do we know about Senator-Designate Butler?

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Laphonza Butler, she is somebody, Jess, who a lot of California Democrats know. She has run in very powerful circles here in California.

She is also known nationally for leading Emily's List. That is the abortion rights group designed to elect Democratic women across the country.

But let's zoom in a little more on the historical nature of what this appointment means. Laphonza Butler's appointment by Governor Newsom, California's governor, makes her the third black woman to serve in the U.S. Senate.

There has not been a black woman Senator since Kamala Harris left to become Joe Biden's vice president. She would be the very first black lesbian to openly serve in the U.S.

Senate. And she did and she is currently head of Emily's List.

And she's also somebody here in California who is known to have powerful union roots. She is a powerful union leader. So she is well- known for organizing and leading California to a $15 minimum wage that has been the standard here in California.

What this does show? The appointment of Butler does fulfill a promise that Newsom made to appoint a block woman to fill that role that Feinstein vacated.

But all of this, certainly, is scrambling the race. This race, this seat is empty in 2024.

Representative Barbara Lee, who was just on CNN with our Dana Bash, said, of course, she's disappointed, that she would have liked to be the black woman who Newsom had appointed but she will continue to run her race.

But, Jessica, what we have here is also Adam Schiff who is running for that seat. And Katie Porter. So you have three powerful Democrats who are running.

And at this point, the governor's office tells us that they have not put any conditions on whether or not Laphonza Butler should or should not run in 2024. This appointment is made without any strings attached, that it is her decision.

CNN has reached out to Laphonza Butler but we have not heard back from her yet -- Jess?

DEAN: That will be quite a race to watch.

Kyung Lah, for us in Los Angeles, thanks so much.

[13:40:00]

Alarms growing in Ukraine after Congress excludes aid for the war. CNN speaks with a senior Ukrainian official who says chaos would reign around the world if America moves away from supporting Kyiv.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: A historic show of solidarity in Ukraine today as the foreign ministers of the E.U. move their meeting to Kyiv, the first time ever convening outside the bloc to signal they are solidly behind Ukraine.

Today's gathering is happening just after the U.S. Congress passed a short-term spending bill that does not include $6 billion in aid, which the Senate requested for Ukraine.

And in the wake of that aid suspension, Ukraine's national security adviser is expressing alarm, telling CNN that America must choose between dark and light.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLEKSIY DANILOV, UKRAINIAN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER (through translation): We need to see whether the United States is responsible for democracy in the world. Whether it remain as a country that supports democracy. Whether it is a country that will stand by and watch as an authoritarian state seizes more and more territory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:45:05]

SANCHEZ: And we're joined by Max Boot. He's a columnist for the "Washington Post" and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Max, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon.

I do want to share with our viewers that you wrote an op-ed in the "Washington Post" detailing, "Ukraine aid is a great investment, don't let MAGA Republicans end it."

You go into detail about why you say that would be a catastrophe.

Let's step back. What do you think the basis is for the opposition to Ukraine aid among these Republicans?

MAX BOOT, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: I think there is a lot of isolationism among Republicans. I think that there is also some affinity for Putin. I think a lot of it is being driven by Donald Trump.

There are a lot of Republicans who know better, including Mitch McConnell, who said this is not the time to go (INAUDIBLE).

And it is pretty obvious that there are bipartisan majorities in both chambers of Congress that continue funding aid to Ukraine, but we need to overcome the obstructionism of the small number of House Republicans.

SANCHEZ: So, Max, you go into some of the arguments from the MAGA Republicans in the op-ed, specifically that those funds should be used for domestic priorities, that there is corruption in Ukraine, that some of that money is being diverted away from the war.

Those arguments though appear to be resonating with some 60 percent of Americans, according to recent polling. Why do you think that is?

BOOT: Well, they are resonating but I think that they are bad arguments. I think that they are resonating because they play into the isolationism among the Republican base.

But they are horrible arguments because the reality is that U.S. aid to Ukraine has been one of the most successful, if not the most successful foreign policy initiatives that the United States has undertaken since the end of the Cold War.

For a relatively small investment -- yes, we're spending tens of billions on Ukraine, but all of that amounts to just one-half of 1 percent of federal spending.

So for a very small investment, a very tiny portion of defense spending, in particular, we are helping the free people of Ukraine to resist aggression, the country that's invaded their country.

And in the process, we're helping them to devastate the Russian war machine. They are inflicting the kind of losses that Russia has not seen since World War II.

And that is degrading dramatically one of the most anti-American, one of the most threatening countries in the world that we face.

So Ukrainians are fighting our battle for us and we don't have to risk a single American soldier. It is a tremendous investment and it would be the height of folly to cut them off.

SANCHEZ: Do you have hope, Max, that there will be Ukraine aid in the next phase of negotiating potentially before that 45-day C.R., continuing resolution, wraps and we face another potential government shutdown?

BOOT: I do have hope because, at the end of the day, roughly two- thirds of each House supports Ukraine aid.

Now, it is very ominous to see that there are now more House Republicans opposed to aid than in favor of it.

But in the bigger picture, it is still about two-thirds of each House that supports Ukraine. And there's not a lot of issues that you can point to that have two-thirds support.

So Kevin McCarthy needs to do the right thing, put a bill on the floor right away, get the aid money flowing.

Because Ukrainians are fighting for their lives and they are fighting not just for their own security, but for our security as well.

SANCHEZ: Max Boot, we have to leave the conversation there. We very appreciate you sharing part of your afternoon with us. Thanks.

BOOT: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Hey, so we are tracking some new developments in the Georgia election subversion case. A key Trump ally has been subpoenaed to testify. The first-on-CNN reporting on that is next.

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[13:53:31] DEAN: New York's former police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, will have to testify in the Georgia election subversion case. The Fulton County D.A. subpoenaed Karik to take the stand in the first trial that's happening later this month.

He was not indicted but is listed as a co-conspirator in the case.

CNN's Paula Reid is here.

Paula, always great to see you.

We know Kerik wants immunity in the case. Why is that so important?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He's an unindicted co-conspirator in this case. He's not named, but CNN has identified him as co-conspirator number five.

In the indictment, they allege he attended, meetings with lawmakers in Pennsylvania and Arizona, two states, of course, Trump was contesting. But he also attended at least one key meeting at the White House, along with Trump attorneys.

So he could potentially be a really key witness for prosecutors as they try to determine exactly what Trump allies were doing in and around the election.

But his attorney, Tim Parlatore, tells us that there's no way his client is going to testify without a grant of immunity.

He says his client did nothing wrong, but if he's going to go on the stand without that kind of assurance, he's just going to repeatedly invoke his Fifth Amendment right to every single question.

Now, in a letter to the Fulton County district attorney's office today, Parlatore suggests the district attorney said they have no interest in indicting Kerik. If they wanted to indict him, they would have done so. But so far, they have refused to put that in writing.

[13:55:00]

Now going forward, this shows the challenge that prosecutors could have if they want it try to get some of these unindicted co- conspirators to cooperate here.

We've reached out to prosecutors and they have offered a no comment.

DEAN: And it is worth noting that he did cooperate with the special counsel, right?

REID: Yes. This is a slightly different situation. But you're correct. He sat for an interview with the special counsel, along with his lawyer.

We're told that he got the standard assurances, the standard proper letter ahead of that interview. But what different there is he's not -- an un-indicted co-conspirator in that case. We don't expect that Bernie Kerik is going to be charged.

That case, the federal case of January 6th appears to be much more narrowly tailored.

But Parlatore does say in this letter to the Fulton County district attorney's office, look, if they want to do any kind of grants of immunity, they should be coordinating with Special Counsel Jack Smith.

DEAN: All right, Paula Reid, always great reporting. Thanks so much. Good to see you.

We'll, of course, continue to follow the latest developments from a New York courtroom as the civil trial against former President Donald Trump and his sons gets underway. We'll have a live update for you next.

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