Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Former President Attacks Judge In Trump Civil Fraud Trial; Matt Gaetz Threatens To Oust Kevin McCarthy As Speaker; New Reports Show Gender Disparities In Health Costs. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 02, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:49]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: On the attack. Former President Donald Trump fighting back and lashing out at the judge overseeing his civil fraud trial. Court is set to resume in just a few minutes. More on what the Trumps are facing and whether this case could have an impact outside of New York State. That's ahead.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, will there be another battle for the gavel? Republican hardliners led by Congressman Matt Gaetz vowing to oust Kevin McCarthy from his speakership. But do they have the votes? And will McCarthy cut a deal with Democrats? We'll take you live to Capitol Hill for the latest.

And new reports showing a so-called pink tax is hurting women's health, especially among breast cancer patients. We're going to explain why. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

DEAN: With his family business at stake, Donald Trump is again in front of a judge for the first day of his civil fraud trial in New York. Inside court, there you can see Trump with his attorney ng quietly sitting quietly before the proceedings began. But outside court, he has been putting on a political spectacle, attacking the judge and prosecutor in remarks this morning and during the lunch recessed in the last hour.

Both times leaning on his go-to claims about the case just a few yards away from where he's being tried.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONAL TRUMP: FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a continuation of the single greatest witch hunt of all time. We have a rogue judge who rules that properties are worth a tiny fraction, one - one hundredth, a tiny fraction of what they actually are. We have a racist attorney general who is a horror show, who ran on the basis that she was going to get Trump before she even knew anything about me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) And in just a few minutes, trial is set to resume. Let's get you now to the courthouse with CNN's Kara Scannell. Kara, what have you heard about what's to come? What should we expect this afternoon?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, the opening statements wrapped this morning and they'll move into the witness testimony. But in opening statements, the state attorney general's office made their case that year after year, loan after loan, former president inflated the value of his assets on these financial statements in order to get better terms for insurance and for for bank loans.

So what - what they previewed in their case is they said that they will call some witnesses who will testify to this, including Michael Cohen. He is Trump's former fixer. He's the reason why the agency's office started this investigation after his testimony on Capitol Hill, where he said that Trump did inflate the value of the assets when it would benefit him.

They also said another Trump organization executive will be testifying that the chief financial officer of the company had told him that Donald Trump liked it when his net worth went up. And that is the basis of this theory of the case, that he had inflated the value of his assets to increase his net worth so he could get these loans.

Now, Trump's attorneys pushing back, saying that this is not fraud, this is real estate, that everyone comes up with their own valuations and it doesn't mean one person has committed fraud. They said that there's no conspiracy among the children. Donald Trump is also accused here of conspiring with his sons, Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump. And they're saying that the only evidence in this case is based on the serial liar, Michael Cohen.

Now, politics did enter the courtroom here because one of Trump's attorneys, Alina Haba, began her opening statement saying that the attorney general's office could have brought this case several years ago, even before they did an investigation. A nod to some of the statements that James has been making, including ones that they pointed to this morning outside of court. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LETITIA JAMES, ATTORNEY GENERAL (NY): My message is simple. No matter how powerful you are, no matter how much money you think you may have, no one is above the law. And it is my responsibility and my duty and my job to enforce it. The law is both powerful and fragile. And today in court, we will prove our case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCANNELL: So Haba's saying that that is the reason why she was introducing politics into the case because James is making comments. Of course, if you said Trump has been making many comments at any break in this trial. Now, the judge said that he had already ruled that Letitia James was a liar.

[14:05:09]

motivation here was not on trial. That it is the factors in this case of whether Trump did defraud lenders and others by making an inflated value system of his assets, have been fixated on the value Mar-a-Lago of the trump's compound. But the judge finding in a ruling that it was about 18 million dollars, they're saying to be worth as much as 1.5 billion dollars.

A lot of testimony will be about the nitty-gritty of finances and how they came up with the valuations for these properties and whether any of the bankers felt that they were misled. It now -- there was only one it moment in this court hearing where Donald Trump, he walked past Leticia James who is sitting in the front row four times. Only in the last time that he walked past her and he glanced over at her and his son Eric Trump is the only other Trump in attendance, when he was leaving right before the lunch break he went over and shook the attorney general's hand, exchanged some words and then he left the courtroom.

So it's going to begin adjust moments from now and I'm gonna get back inside and bring the latest in there.

DEAN: A lot of dynamics at play. Kara will go back and we'll check back in with you later thanks so much for that reporting. Let's go now to CNN Kristen Holmes who's just outside of Trump Tower, also there in Manhattan. Kristen, we know that Trump did not have to appear -- this is a civil case, he didn't have to be here. Is this a strategy to kind of bolster his legal case, is this part of the optics of all of this?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well just that when I was talking to these advisors about why he was gonna show up today, they originally said that he wanted to have a show of force. That it was important for him to look the judge in the eye. But we've seen here today but this is also part of the campaign strategy. Now for several months we have been asking campaign advisors how are you going to navigate 2024 presidential campaign looming trials and today we saw at least part of that. They are essentially trials, they turned it today, into a campaign event. When Trump was leaving Trump Tower, I think, blasted out a statement on Letitia James, one that you would likely see against a political opponent. You've seen Trump there at that event going back to the cameras back to the microphones time and time again. Getting more updated remarks very similar to what he's saying in the first place but still going back to that attention. You know that's something that former president Trump likes. He likes the visuals, he likes the optics and this is clearly a way for him to take control of the narrative so we're talking about campaigning in the middle of the trials, well how can you make this essentially a plan to take all the oxygen out of the race. And that seems to be what they are doing.

And Trump himself really said as much making this political when he was asked why he was here today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Why do you want to be here today?

TRUMP: Because i want to watch this witch hunt myself. I've been going through a witch hunt for years. This is really now getting dirty between Jack Smith and between all of these DOJ people helping them along. This is a pure witch hunt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And remember witch hunt, election interference, this is what Trump has been saying for the last several months if not longer as to why exactly he is facing all of these legal problems, all of these trials. He says that it's all because democrats are out to get him but they don't want him to run against Joe Biden. Of course, he is still in the middle of a campaign for 2024. I do want to note one thing here, I was watching him go back and forth to the microphone and that reminded me of 2016 when he was in Scotland at his golf -- his golf course there and he was with reporters and he just kept going to the microphone, essentially like a rolling press conference. That's really what he's doing here.

You remember this is Trump in his element. When the cameras are around he is a showman at the end of the day. An he's clearly using this to bolster him on the political side here Jessica.

DEAN: Yeah there's no question about it with him there that there is so much more attention. He does return to his playbook again and again. Kristen Holmes for us in Manhattan, thanks so much. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's discuss all aspects of this trial with our star-studded panel CNN political director David Chalian is with us, as is CNN political correspondent Sara Murray and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams.

Elliot, I want to start with you and something that Alina Hobb has said in her opening statement with New York attorney general Leticia James in the room. She went after the AEG saying that in her campaign she said she was going to get Trump she described him as an illegitimate president. The judge though essentially tossing that aside. Why?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: For the most part the candidates of the- the attorneys can say what they want in court here because there's no jury in the room. Often rules in court are made for the protection of not taking evidence in front of the jury. If she makes bad arguments up to this judge the only audience that she's going to lose is that judge sitting right there because he's the one who's ultimately making the ruling of the decision here. So, I think he's a big boy and can take some of the attacks that are that are coming in but it really would be a different calculus if there was a jury in the room because then arguments like that really might risk tainting how they would regard the evidence of the trial.

[14:10:00]

SANCHEZ: And Trump also criticizing the judge, saying that he's a rogue judge. Very unique strategy to get into court late because you were outside criticizing the person that's going to decide, right?

WILLIAMS: So, you know, like the movie Dodgeball. Bold move, Cotton. We'll see how it works out for them. But now it literally, they have an audience of one here and it is that particular judge. Now it seems to me, just as an attorney watching it, I think they know they're going to lose. And I think they're playing to David's world, where they're playing to the cameras here and to the voters, not to the court. I think they've accepted that this is a lost cause.

SANCHEZ: To Elliot's point, Trump's team has essentially said that this is partly a campaign event for them.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Not partly. I mean, in large part it is, first of all, He didn't have to show up today, obviously. So the choosing to show up immediately, I think, Moves us more into the campaign territory than the legal territory for him in terms of the theatrics today. But I think it's important to note here what the Trump team has learned here over time.

So you had four federal indictments, 91 criminal charges, and they were working all summer long to make lemonade out of lemons. Nobody would want to be indicted on criminal charges. Certainly not a former president who's seeking the presidency again. And yet they found if they can lean into this, portray him as the victim, it helps rally their base. And it totally dominated the headlines and therefore starved his opponents of oxygen. And so when it came to a day like this, where it's not required, unlike the federal indictments, they said, hey, we should run that same kind of playbook. We want to continue to starve our Republican primary opponents of any oxygen. We want to dominate the information flow. And we know showing up to court is an opportunity to do that and continue to portray the candidate as the victim here.

SANCHEZ: It's not just showing up to court, Sara. It's making statements before going in and then coming out during lunch. In and out, in and out to the microphone, making controversial statements to say the least.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, yeah, I think in a lot of ways, this is a dry run for when he does have to be in court. I mean, he's staring down a trial in federal court here in Washington, D.C. in March that's unlikely to move very much. So to figure out how you can essentially campaign around having to be in court, I think this is an opportunity essentially for them to practice. Is it a wise strategy to attack the judge from a legal standpoint? No, it's not a wise strategy. It's not wise in New York. It's not wise when they do it in D.C. It's not going to be wise when they inevitably do the same thing in Georgia.

But from a political standpoint, he does have to figure out how to campaign for president around his various court appearances. And this is an opportunity to do a dry run.

SANCHEZ: So to the question that Sara just brought up, if this is sort of a dry run for Trump and his team, could we see what he's doing now in this civil matter unfolding federal court in D.C.? WILLAMS: No, you know, he can't, certainly can't attack jurors. Well, he can attack jurors. The question is, is he going to be sanctioned for it? The judge has the power to, number one, muzzle him if he continues making threats, or number two, you know, impose financial penalties, but also three, put him behind bars if it continues. Now, the difference is federal court tends to be much less of a spectacle than you'll find in state court. You're not going to see the kinds of even photographs in the courtroom like we saw today. That just wouldn't be allowed in a federal courthouse. The kind of hallway press conference, I think you probably wouldn't see that in a federal courthouse either. So there's a little more room he has here to play the camera.

SAANCHEZ: Sure. David, you talked about how Trump's team is sort of sucking the oxygen out of the room for other Republican candidates. I think this specific case is a little bit different for him than the criminal cases, certainly, because it cuts to the core of his identity as this successful businessman. And if it's true that he is found liable for all sorts of fraud, could that sway any voters, especially the timing of it? This is supposed to wrap up in December, weeks before the Iowa caucuses.

CHALIAN: We've not seen any evidence yet to suggest that Republican primary voters are swayed by any of these allegations. I think you are right to note this cuts to his political identity. I think that has more to do with his own psychology about how he presents himself than it does necessarily about voters, which is why you see him so worked up about this trial, because it's not just his political identity. It is his entire professional identity for his public life.

MURRAY: But I don't think it's necessarily new, this sort of attack that Donald Trump is not this amazing businessman that you think he is. I mean, we saw this back to him running in 2015, 2016, whether it was Trump University, whether it was Trump Stakes, whether it was any kind of Trump branded enterprise, all of those got a lot of scrutiny and sort of weren't exactly the thing that he was, you know, they weren't as successful as he was trying to portray himself to America. And it didn't move voters, it didn't really matter to them. It's not running the one in Atlanta. But I think he's framed this argument that it's all a witch hunt out to get him and that actually lands with a lot of people.

CHALIAN: Yes, I see what I mean. No evidence exists. (LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Right. But I think one thing that might resonate with people, if you notice, he's made this argument and made it this morning that the Justice Department is pulling the strings on all of this. They're pulling the strings in Atlanta and New York and elsewhere. And he's capitalizing on the fact that people don't really understand how the system works and that the United States Department of Justice is not running this case.

[14:15:59]

MURRAY: Make it look like a pile-up.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

SANCHEZ: Elliott, David, Sara, appreciate the conversation. Thanks so much. Plenty more news to come on CNN News Central. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy's gavel is now on the line after he passed a spending bill with the aid of Democrats infuriating those Republican hardliners who want to vote him out. CNN just caught up with the speaker. You're going to hear what he has to say about the threats to remove him from the speakership. Plus, Senator Bob Menendez is expected to be back in court today over bribery charges as the aid to Egypt that's at the center of the allegations is blocked by his successor on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. And not everyone in the Democratic Party is backing President Biden for reelection, including Congressman Dean Phillips, who just stepped down from party leadership over his support for Biden. You're watching CNN News Central. We're back in just a few minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz is not moving forward with his effort to remove Kevin McCarthy from the speakership, at least for now. Gaetz says a move to oust him is not a good idea. Gaetz says a move to oust the speaker could still happen today or later this week. Gaetz had been pushing to file a motion to oust McCarthy after the speaker struck a deal with Democrats that kept the government open. CNN's Manu Raju joins us now live. So Manu, you caught up with Speaker McCarthy. What did he share with you?

[14:20:59]

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I wanted to know exactly what his plan was if he does, in fact, lose this vote, which could happen this week. Remember, any one member can call for a vote to oust a sitting speaker. That has never been successfully done in American history, but it's something that Matt Gaetz is threatening to do, claiming that McCarthy broke some promises and also accusing him of -- going against his word by pushing through a government funding bill to keep the government open for 45 days, something that was reached to avert a government shutdown just this past weekend.

The question now is how that vote will take shape. It could happen within the next two days if Gaetz makes that motion today. He has not done so yet. It would need five Republicans to vote to kick him out of the speakership if all Democrats agreed to vote that way as well. What Democrats do remains the key question at that moment -at this moment, as Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader, has not made a decision yet as he weighs what to do. I asked the speaker just moments ago about what will happen. Will he continue to try to become speaker? If he gets kicked out, which would lead to a new speaker's race, will he put himself up as a candidate again and again and again? And he indicated he's ready to fight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Mr. Speaker, if you lose this vote, will you continue? REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, HOUSE SPEAKER (R): You start with the negative here. Let's be positive. The government is open. Last week, you all asked me about was government going to be closed. No, government is open. Congress is back in session. We've already passed 74% of the discretionary spending for the approach we need to. The Senate has done zero. We're passing two more appropriation bills, hopefully this week. That's what we're working on. And we're continuing to do our job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Then I went on to ask him a bit more about his plans here. He said that I am never gonna give up here planning, suggesting that he could fight this out on the House floor. But on the other side, Matt Gaetz this morning said that if he loses on this vote, he is ready to continue on as well. I asked him, how long are you willing to take this fight in the weeks and days ahead? He said, if I have to go 14 or 15 rounds, that's how long Kevin McCarthy went back in January to become speaker. A

And there's nothing dilatory that if I decided to go that route, those were the words of Matt Gaetz. So we could expect a drawn out fight. But that first vote is the key one. And when that happens some time this week, we'll see if the speaker can keep his job. If not, this could be the House committee in paralysis, the state of paralysis for some time.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. Yeah. None, especially promising note, given that we may face a shutdown in some 40 odd days again. Mata Raju, stay positive, as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy says. Thanks so much, Manu. (Laughter)

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Focus on the positive. For more on all of this, we are joined now by Republican Congressman Larry Bouchon of Indiana. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon. It's great to have you on. We just heard from your colleague Matt Gaetz a couple of hours ago. He did speak. He hasn't formally filed that motion to vacate, but he's promised to. He says that's what's coming later this week. We know that your fellow House members are flying into get set for the week. What are you hearing from your fellow GOP lawmakers right now? Where do things stand at 2 -23?

REP LARRY BUCSHON (R,IN): Well, I think there's a lot of support for Speaker McCarthy. He did the right thing. Look, we had a conservative bill on the House floor, and 21 Republicans voted against it. So it's irresponsible to shut the government down. The Speaker did the right thing, and he had the majority of the House Republicans vote with him. So I think everything's positive. The government's open.

Look, the accomplishments that we've had with Speaker McCarthy in charge of the House are many, and I think right now we're striking a positive tone about the future of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker.

DEAN: Yeah, and you're clearly very supportive of him, as you're indicating right now. How do you, and people like you who do support Kevin McCarthy as House Speaker, what are you going to be doing in these next few days to make sure that he keeps that speakership? And if it involves bipartisan support, if Democrats need to come in and help out with that vote, how will that work as well? And do you think rank and file Republicans will be okay with that?

BUCSHON: Well, I think they will. I think our goal here, my goal at least, is to message to the American people the accomplishments that we've had as House Republicans. Message that to our conservative voters that we passed H.R. 1, which makes energy independence front and center. We passed H.R. 2 to secure the southern border, and many other things, work requirements and welfare, all kinds of things under this Speaker. And we plan to continue to push our agenda through the House of Representatives. And look, let the process work. We have divided government and that's how we have to govern here.

[14:25:29]

We have to do this on behalf of the American people. Look, the Speaker's second in line to the presidency. The Speaker can't allow irresponsible things to happen because we have a few people who think that they should. And so I think he's doing a great job, and I think there's a lot of support amongst House Republicans for the Speaker.

DEAN: And so just, but practically, how does that work? How do you keep enough Republicans together, and how do you make sure in the next several days strategically that -- Matt Gaetz is not successful?

BUCSHON: I think we're already there. I mean, I think you saw that in the initial 15 votes for Speaker. We had 200 or just over 200 House Republicans that didn't waver with their support for Speaker McCarthy, and I think you'll see the same thing. I think even more probably. So because what people understand is if you just derail the Speaker, we did derail the House Republican agenda. And that's what the most important thing is, the agenda under this Speaker and under House Republicans that we're doing on behalf of the American people. So I think there's already that support there. You know, I don't know how the Democrats would vote. That's up to them. And I don't even want to make any assumptions about that. But I think there's support amongst House Republicans to keep the Speaker, the Speaker.

DEAN: And if you talk to some House Republicans, there's a fair amount of frustration at Matt Gaetz and what he's doing. And I heard you just say it could derail what you all are trying to accomplish, you believe, as House Republicans who are leading the House. Do you get that sense that -- there is that frustration? And do you believe that what Matt Gaetz is doing is derailing the priorities and them moving forward for Speaker McCarthy and House Republicans?

BUCSHON: Well, I think there's always a level of frustration with anyone who tries to disrupt what the vast majority of House Republicans are trying to do on behalf of the American people. So yes, I think that a lot of people think that this will potentially derail our agenda going for the rest of this Congress. And so, yeah, there's a level of frustration there. And I think, you know, the majority, vast majority of the House Republicans want to move forward on a conservative agenda that we think is the best path forward for the American people. And that's what I'm focused on. And I think anything, anytime you have things that derail that process, yes, there's a level of frustration, particularly when it's completely unnecessary and unfounded.

DEAN: And before I let you go, I also want to ask you about the other big news that we're following today. President Trump, of course, in court on that fraud trial in New York City. You've said you don't believe that he's going to be the GOP nominee in this next cycle. But we look at the polling, both nationally and the early states, he continues to kind of maintain his hold on the Republican primary voters.

How do you see any other of these candidates breaking through when, like on a day to day like today, he's sucked the oxygen back out and really turn that spotlight back on himself?

BUCSHON: Well, I think the important thing to remember is we need to let the process play out. And that's for the president, the former president and his legal team to work through the process and let the system work. You know, as far as myself, I endorsed former Vice President Mike Pence. He's a friend, was my governor, and I think he'd be a great president. I think a lot of the candidates in the Republican debate are showing that they can be president. And so we'll see how the process plays out. Let it play out. I supported the Trump administration's policies and I'll support them again if President Trump is elected as our nominee. But we'll just let that process play out. It's up to the voters, ultimately.

DEA: Right. They have to decide. Right. Congressman Larry Bouchon, thanks so much for joining us this afternoon. We appreciate it.

BUCSHON: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

DEAN: Well, Senator Bob Menendez is back in court on charges he accepted bribes to help Egypt. The new Senate Foreign Relations Committee chair blocks military aid to the country. We're going to be live from the State Department. That's next.