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Soon: Trump Leaves For Court On Day 2 Of Fraud Trial; Soon: Hunter Biden Appears In Court On Gun Charges; Vote To Oust McCarthy Could Come As Soon As Today. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 03, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:01:21]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump back in court this morning. He has yet to take the stand and speak under oath, but that is not stopping him from lashing out, that's for sure, attacking the judge in his case and the AG multiple times.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: For the first time, the child of a sitting president appears in court to fight criminal charges. This morning, Hunter Biden to plead not guilty to gun charges.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: A ransom note, cell phone pings and fingerprints, the clues that led to a missing nine-year-old girl in New York and the suspects in her disappearance. We are following these stories and more. I'm Sara Sidner with Kate Bolduan and John Berman. This is CNN News Central.

BERMAN: All right, happening now, historic events taking place behind closed doors on Capitol Hill. Make no mistake, this could be Kevin McCarthy's final day as speaker of the House. In the next hour or so, we could learn whether he has enough votes to save his job. And in an unprecedented twist, it is Democrats who control his fate. They are holding a meeting at this very moment with secrecy so tight, they were asked to turn in their cell phones on the way in.

So this all began late yesterday when Florida Republican Matt Gaetz offered what is called a motion to vacate the chair. Basically, he called a vote to oust McCarthy. As of this morning, CNN's count is that at least five Republicans are backing the plan to boot him. He can only afford to lose four of them, so if the vote were taken right now, he'd be out. That is unless Democrats step in to save him. And that is what they are deciding at this very moment.

We are watching the doors at these meetings, trying to find any signs of what's going on inside as McCarthy's fate hangs in the ballots. We will update you as we get any information on this, stay tuned.

BOLDUAN: We're also watching and waiting for something else today that you really never see, a split screen like no other, one courtroom with a former president facing a judge and a fraud case that could bring down his business empire. And at the same time, in another courtroom, the sitting president's son is about to be arraigned on federal gun charges.

SIDNER: Right now, we are standing by to see Donald Trump leave Trump Tower, as we did yesterday. Day one of his $250 million civil fraud trial brought a lot of drama because mostly of Donald Trump, who went on camera and online unleashing a new round of nasty, albeit predictable attacks in court. Trump appeared agitated and angry at times as he listened to testimony from his former accountant. So what will day two now bring as that accountant soon retakes the stand?

BERMAN: All right, CNN's Brynn Gingras live outside the courthouse for us with the very latest. Brynn?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, guys. Good morning. Yes. So we're waiting for the former president to leave Trump Tower, come here to the courthouse, expected here to be at the start of court at 10:00 a.m. And listen, he left it yesterday with a little bit of pep in his step, and that's because of a judge's comment saying that testimony that ended the day could have been a complete waste of time.

He was referring to the state's attorney questioning his former accountant on financial statements that were outside the statute of limitations for this case. And that, of course, made the president pretty happy. He said to the cameras that he thought that was outstanding. And that's what we've seen from the former president, right? He goes to the cameras happy when things go his way inside the courtroom, and he goes on the attack when the things go his way in the courtroom.

[09:05:01]

We are expecting his former accountant to be back on the stand. The state's attorneys going through again the finer details of those financial statements, valuation on properties and things like that. And we expect the defense to continue with this argument that there was no intent here, there was no fraud, and especially there were no victims.

Yesterday, we saw the former president be pretty engaged with his attorneys, talking with them, conferring with them, listening to the testimony intently. So we'll see if he continues that today. Big question, though, will he stay all day like he did yesterday, or is he going to leave earlier in the day? How many times is he going to come back to court because remember, there are a number of people who are expected to take the witness stand, and that includes himself, his adult sons, and it'll be interesting to see if he'll show up when his former fixer, former attorney Michael Cohen, shows up.

Of course, he's the one who is the reason, really, that this all got started, this case, after his testimony to Congress. So these are things that we are certainly looking out for as day two gets underway, because remember, as you guys pointed out, there is a lot at stake here for him. It is his brand on the line, and we know the President is very much interested in protecting that brand. Guys?

SIDNER: All right, Brynn Gingras, thank you for all those details. The former president claims the New York case against him is political as he does with just about every single case. He says it's all about trying to damage him ahead of the election, even though the judge did find him and his adult sons liable for fraud just by looking at cold, hard facts, the forensic accounting. CNN's Kristen Holmes is outside Trump Tower for us this morning. Trump's already posting. He's up and at it this morning. What's he saying?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sara, he's obsessed with the same thing we talked about yesterday, the valuation of Mar-a- lago. Now, I am told by sources close to him that what he said on camera, which Brynn just mentioned about it being a good day in court, it is actually why he's going back. He did feel that way. One source saying that he had fun.

Now, of course, Donald Trump always has fun when there are a lot of cameras around him. He gets to go out and say what he wants to say. And as we reported yesterday, much of this was really set up like a campaign event and geared towards getting all of that media coverage. But when I talk to legal sources as well as advisors to Trump, they do say that he is invested in this case.

He was intensely listening, as Brynn said, he was talking to his legal team, discussing what to do. And that he actually is trying to follow along with what exactly is happening on the legal side of this as well. One more thing to point out here, Brynn touched on this at the end when she was just talking about his brand. Everything in Donald Trump's life is tied around the Trump brand and him building himself up as a rich businessman.

You can see by his obsession, his fixation on the value of Mar-a-Lago, his home in Florida, that this is something that is so important to him and it's not just his personal brand, but it is also his political brand. He sells the idea that because he is a rich businessman, he can do what for others what he has done for himself.

Now, again, no one on his team expects that he's going to be there every single day in court. We know that he's going to be back on the campaign trail. He's going to be visiting early voting states. He has several speeches scheduled. But they do say that right now, he is enjoying it and he's going to, as we know, be back there this morning.

BOLDUAN: Kristen Holmes, thank you as always. We'll get back to you.

Also now in Delaware this morning, President Biden's son, Hunter Biden, he is headed to court. He's set to be arraigned on three felony gun charges after his plea agreement fell apart in that spectacular fashion back in July. He's expected to plead not guilty. There's a whole lot more going on with this, though.

CNN's Paula Reid in Wilmington, Delaware for us and joining us now. Paula, this -- what we're looking at here is the first ever indictment of a sitting president's child. So what is going to happen today?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, any moment, Hunter Biden is expected to arrive here at federal court in Wilmington, Delaware. He'll head inside for his arraignment on those federal charges. He's expected to plead not guilty. He will likely be processed, and we expect that the judge will set out the terms, the conditions for his release.

Now, this should be a pretty quick hearing. Even though it is quick, it is procedural. It is still a historic moment. This is the first time that the child of a sitting president will be arraigned on criminal charges. Now, these gun charges, along with several other charges related to alleged tax crimes, were all expected to be resolved with a plea deal several weeks ago, but that plea deal fell apart.

The prosecutor overseeing this investigation in this case has since been named a special counsel and filed these gun charges. But, Kate, at this point it is unclear what is going to happen to those tax charges, that those will also be filed now that the plea deal has fallen apart. But Hunter Biden's lawyers are insisting that the prosecutor here bent to political pressure and that this is not the kind of case that would be brought against anyone else.

[09:10:02]

They point to the fact that no one here in the district of Delaware with a similar set of facts has ever been charged. And many legal experts have also agreed with that assessment that this is a highly unusual case. But again, this is now a special counsel investigation. It is unclear if additional charges will be brought, but today a historic moment, the first arraignment of the child of a sitting president. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Yes. Paula, thanks for being there. We're going to keep our close eyes on this as he's going to be arriving soon.

SIDNER: With us now, Jeremy Solan, former assistant district attorney for the Manhattan DA's office and former federal prosecutor Gene Rossi. I'm going to start with you, Jeremy. We just heard some of the defense there that this is not common. How common is it for someone to be charged with this kind of a gun charge in this case?

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER ASST. DISTRICT ATTORNEY, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Well, when you look at the statistics, there's plenty of thousands of people get charged for these gun related crimes. But the particular offense for which he is charged is generally not charged, certainly on an island, meaning by itself as its only offense. And when you look at the circumstances as well, where no one's accusing him of shooting somebody else or being a kingpin in some unrelated drug transaction, this is a five-year-old offense or so where he had the firearm for roughly eleven days and simply filled out some paperwork. So it is atypical as an island by itself, but even generally you don't see it that common with other crimes.

SIDNER: You're saying if there wasn't other crimes committed with that firearm, it is not likely that they would put this particular charge out there by itself?

SALAND: And the statistics bear that out.

SIDNER: OK. BERMAN: Gene, if I can ask you, this hearing is before a magistrate judge today for Hunter Biden, but the judge presiding over this case is the same one for whom the whole case, the plea deal, fell apart beforehand. Is there any chance that that judge could say, you know what, you two sides go work this out again, get back there and figure out something else because this particular gun charge, as Jeremy was just saying there, is not something we normally see by itself.

GENE ROSSI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: No, a magistrate judge will not do that because --

BERMAN: Not the magistrate judge when it goes to the next phase after today? Today is procedural. Today is in and out. They're done. They move on. But when the presiding judge starts to weigh under this again soon.

ROSSI: Yes, I misheard you, John. I apologize. No, the district court judge would not do that because you're putting your fingers in the pot. They have to stay a little bit removed and let the parties negotiate, you know, if possible, before trial. I do have to make one comment. I have a client down in Newport News, Virginia, 25 years old, high school dropout. She has been charged and pleaded guilty to a G3, the user charge.

I will say this, if it were Hunter Smith and not Hunter Biden, he would not be charged with this G3. John, I was on your show a couple of weeks ago, and I talked about one of my defendants who had a very evocative nickname. And in a case where there's violence, you would charge this user charge, but in this case, the standalone, it is never done in my almost 30 years as a federal prosecutor.

BOLDUAN: Jeremy, the special counsel, is still investigating, which obviously leaves up in the possibility that no matter how shaky the ground is that these charges are on, or how if on an island, he wouldn't have been -- he would really not be charged. Whatever it is, we are where we are today. These tax crimes that they're still investigating, how likely is that to pile on now?

SALAND: I certainly think that's a possibility. They're investigating it now still. But even again, I don't want to make something smaller than it is, but at the same time, we don't want to make it larger than it is. This is not the most grave tax crime either, in terms of the dollar amount that we're discussing.

BOLDUAN: What does that mean then, about the penalty that the consequence that he could pay here?

SALAND: Well, I think you can see from what was initially offered, even though it fell through, this is not an incarceration issue. Certainly things can change. One never knows, if a judge can make a decision. But on its face and based on the history of the case, I don't think that's the issue here. And I would just add, to take a step back, you know, a controlled substance is marijuana with the federal government, even though some states legalize marijuana.

So theoretically, if you're smoking marijuana or denying that you're smoking marijuana and getting a firearm and abiding by the laws of your state, such as in Missouri, for example, and getting that firearm, you're running afoul of this law. It just seems very silly, and that's not a legal term, but it seems very silly that we're here for this type offense.

BOLDUAN: It should be a legal term, though. I think it should.

SALAND: If you use it in quotes.

BOLDUAN: Everything works in quotes.

SIDNER: I want to move to the other case that we are watching right now, which is Donald Trump's fraud case here in New York. Trump has said a couple of things, and I wanted to get your take on this. He thinks that it's unfair that he doesn't have a jury. He has said that, and he says that the fraud case is election interference because he has to be in court and cannot be out on a campaign trial. Doesn't he have control of those two things?

[09:15:05]

SALAND: Nonsense and nonsense. If you wanted a jury, he could have asked for a jury. There is nothing that precludes him as a matter of law. His attorneys either failed to do so because they made an error or that was their calculated decision, although it seems to be an odd one. And in terms of him being there every day, this is not a criminal case where you are there. And if you don't show up in New York, we call Parkerize someone that the case can proceed in your absence. That's not what's happening here. He can show up today or not. That's on him.

BERMAN: Gene of course, Donald Trump has lost a big part of this case already, maybe the biggest part of this case. The judge made a summary judgment saying that Donald Trump and his son did commit fraud here. As they continue on through this case to determine the other several counts which get to the issue of intent, what will be allowed and not allowed.

Yesterday, they had this whole thing with whether it was the statute of limitations on some of the accounting that took place before. How much is that going to matter going forward?

ROSSI: Well, I think Donald Trump got a little bit ahead of his skis. I did a ton of civil and criminal tax cases for DOJ. Even though tax returns, financial statements are outside the statute of limitations. You can use those documents as a prologue to show absence of mistake intent plan. So Mr. Trump was happy about some innocuous comment by the judge. But if you have returns that are, say, seven, eight years old, but they are consistent with the returns and statements you are presenting in the charged counts, that comes in as relevant conduct, relevant conduct.

BERMAN: Jeremy, Gene, yes, thank you.

BOLDUAN: You say Jeremy and I'll say Gene.

BERMAN: OK. Jeremy --

BOLDUAN: Gene, thank you so much.

Coming up for us, Kevin McCarthy fighting to save his speakership, and he really may need Democrats to do that. Dems behind closed doors this hour to figure out their game plan. Republicans are huddling behind closed doors as well this hour. Something has got to give. Something is going to give. We will soon find out what it is.

Well, it's a nine-year-old girl is back home today, and the man suspected of kidnapping her is in custody. What police are saying about how they were able to track down the suspect from a ransom note and a Congressman carjacked at gunpoint in Washington, D.C., more details on the investigation now to find out what happened. That's ahead.

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[09:21:34]

BOLDUAN: Welcome back. You're looking at live pictures of Donald Trump on the move, heading to the courthouse in lower Manhattan, headed back to court to face the second day of his civil fraud trial. We're going to bring you updates as the former president will be heading back in that courthouse. Let's see what happens today.

SIDNER: All right. Right now, House Republicans and Democrats are meeting separately and secretly behind closed doors on Capitol Hill as Speaker Kevin McCarthy's job is on the line. After weeks of threats, GOP Congressman Matt Gaetz has filed that motion to oust McCarthy as speaker. And a vote to determine McCarthy's future could come as early as today.

Gaetz says he has had enough Republicans backing him that McCarthy will need to turn to Democrats to save him. CNN's Lauren Fox is live for us from Capitol Hill. You are outside the Democratic caucus meeting. I see a line of people, reporters waiting to hear. What else do you're hearing? Because we have heard from some of these legislators earlier this morning before they went into those meetings.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, let's break this down, Sara. Outside of the Democratic caucus meeting, this is a highly anticipated conversation that the caucus is going to have today. That is because for the last several weeks, their leadership has been making clear that they did not want members freelancing any side deal with Republican colleagues, that they wanted their members to keep their powder dry and wait for the moment that this resolution was filed on the floor.

That, of course, happened last night with Matt Gaetz. Now the question becomes, what are Democrats going to do. Now Leader Jeffries had a conversation with House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Here's what Jeffries said he told the Speaker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: I will say to you is what I said to him, which is that we have a caucus meeting this morning. We'll have a family conversation about this issue relatively a first impression that hasn't been before the Congress in 110 years or so and then figure out where to go from there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And a number of Democrats that I spoke to this morning said that they are waiting for the message from leadership. Many members believe it is crucial for Democrats to be united on this, for Democrats not to be going off and voting just on the floor with their Republican colleagues. And one thing that became very clear is that there is a trust issue with the speaker of the House.

I talked to Representative Dan Kilde and he said, you know, even if we could strike some kind of deal with McCarthy to save him, there's a lot of fear in our caucus about whether or not the Speaker would be true to his word. Now, Speaker McCarthy did appear on CNBC this morning. He said that there is no special deal with Democrats.

But obviously as the hours tick on, as we get closer to this crucial vote, the question will become does that calculus for the speaker change as he stares down his fate. Sara?

SIDNER: And the reason for that distrust is because McCarthy had a handshake deal with the President on May 5th that he reneged on. Thank you so much, Lauren. I know you are out there waiting for details. As soon as you get them, we will come back to you. John?

BERMAN: All Right with us now CNN senior political analyst and senior editor at The Atlantic, Ron Brownstein. Ron behind Lauren Fox right now, the fate of Kevin McCarthy is being determined in the room. I'm not sure that we can stress this enough. There is a meeting going on among Democrats to decide whether the Republican House Speaker gets to keep his job and we could know the outcome in 30 minutes.

[09:25:11]

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, you know, we never see this in the House. I mean, the House has become even more of a parliamentary institution, and, you know, the job of the minority is a pretty bleak one in the modern House. But here we are in the unique situation. I think if Democrats were voting with their hearts, Kevin McCarthy would be out in a heartbeat.

Voting with their heads, it may head in that direction anyway, but it is a closer call because there are considerations on each side of the ledger once you kind of look at it beyond their instinctive distrust of him and their distaste for the way he has been so subservient to Trump defending him on January 6th, you know, reversing his initial criticism while launching an impeachment inquiry into Biden without any hard evidence of wrongdoing by the President himself.

TAPPER: I talked to Congressman Adam Smith, Democrat from Washington State, yesterday, and basically he articulated what is a concern among Democrats is that they could end up with something in their minds worse than Kevin McCarthy if they vote to oust him. But in order to support him, they want something in return. What on earth could McCarthy give Democrats?

BROWNSTEIN: I mean, there's a lot he could give them. The problem is that anything he gives them will probably widen the circle of Republicans who want to get rid of him. It might be something of a zero sum game. It really isn't tenable for him to, in the long term be a speaker who is supported by Democrats. I mean, look, what Adam Smith said is exactly right. I mean, on the one hand, I think the cold political calculation is that Democrats probably would better served by joining the effort to depose McCarthy.

It would deepen the image of chaos that is already enveloping this Republican majority House, which would be an important argument for Democrats in '24. It would also widen the -- exacerbate, the conflict between Republicans from more competitive districts and those from the safe district and the far right. And all of that would benefit Republicans.

The flip side is that it probably would lead to more chaos, in fact, and would lead to a speaker that would probably be even more confrontational, would increase the odds of a government shutdown in 45 days, probably increase the odds of the impeachment inquiry goes on. It's not an easy choice when you kind of look at it that way for Democrats.

But I suspect there will be a lot of momentum in that caucus to question why they should bail out Kevin McCarthy given the way he has behaved as speaker.

TAPPER: I wonder if we get that picture we just had back up of the reporters gathered outside the closed doors there. It was really a remarkable image. You can see all these people and the camera turned the other way, too. You can see even more the reason they're all standing there is behind the closed doors, Democrats are quite literally deciding the fate of Kevin McCarthy. And all members of Congress had to turn in their cell phones on the way in because they're having this what's called family meeting to hash out what they want to do.

And were just talking about what Kevin McCarthy could give Democrats. I want to read just a quote from Punch Bowl News. Our friends, you know, Jake Sherman, John Bresnahan this morning, and others wrote this morning, you know, would Democrats want a true coalition government with equal representation on the Rules Committee and other key panels? What happens to the impeachment inquiry into President Biden?

Democrats aren't going to want that to continue, but if McCarthy agrees to end the probe, the speaker would face a huge backlash internally. Also, how does McCarthy keep fundraising for 2024 if he's overseeing a jointly run House? What is his message to donors, especially pro Donald Trump donors? It's a heck of a bind here, Ron.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, that is -- look, I can't imagine anything like that's going to happen. We're talking about Kevin McCarthy here, who, you know, within days of January 6th went down to Mar-a-Lago to kind of bend the knee again and restore his loyalty to Trump, which he has kept throughout this Speakership. And the general strategy of the speakership has been to continue to mollify his critics on the right and expect the Republicans and more competitive districts to fall in line behind him.

I don't think Democrats would have those kinds of expectations. It really is more the devil you know. And knowing Joe Biden and what an institutionalist he is, I can imagine that his instinct might be that the devil you know is better than whatever may be waiting out there down the road. But I do think there are logical political arguments on both sides of this for Democrats. It's something we -- I don't know what the, you know, the House foyer looked like when Joe Cannon was facing this in 1910.

You know, there aren't many -- there's no one alive who can tell us what exactly unfolded then. It's an extraordinarily unusual position for Democrats. One last point, though, John. There's an if in the way you framed the question. If Democrats can unify, they can decide as a body. I mean, there is the chance that some moderates may want to kind of bolster their bipartisan cred by voting for McCarthy in difficult districts.

Generally, that hasn't happened the last few years of Democrats, certainly not as much as Republicans. They've held together with remarkable consistency, but there is at least the possibility that they can't enforce a caucus wide decision.

[09:30:03]

BERMAN: It is although some of those moderates, like Jared Golden of Maine, are those who Kevin McCarthy worked hardest to beat.