Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Interview With Rep. Debbie Dingell (D-MI); Hunter Biden Pleads Not Guilty to Gun Charges; Small Group of Republicans Attempting to Oust Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 03, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:29]

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: This morning, the judge in the Trump trial in New York has been admonishing the attorneys, telling them to stop bringing up the same arguments again and again.

This is day two of that trial, and we will have more for you on that coming up.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Yes, developments inside that courtroom.

Also, moments ago, Hunter Biden left court after pleading not guilty to three gun charges. We're getting new details about what took place inside that courtroom.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Kevin McCarthy is on the brink, facing a Republican revolt that could cost him his speakership, Republican leaders now acknowledging that Democrats have the leverage. What's going to happen?

I'm Kate Bolduan with John Berman and Sara Sidner. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

It is chaos on Capitol Hill right now, and a special kind of chaos this time. House lawmakers are getting set and ready to vote on whether or not to oust Kevin McCarthy as speaker at some point today, or if he will be able to narrowly avoid that fate.

He's making -- he's facing a small, but determined revolt amongst his own party led by Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz.

Here's McCarthy just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): If you throw a speaker out that has 99 percent of their conference, that kept government open, and paid the troops, I think we're in a really bad place for how we're going to run Congress.

QUESTION: So are you expecting...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: While this chaos plays out, it's really basically paralyzed on the House side.

We have team coverage on Capitol Hill, CNN's Manu Raju and Lauren Fox joining me.

Manu, you have been tracking -- talking and tracking Republicans this morning. What is happening right now?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Republican Speaker McCarthy is making very clear that he's planning to have this vote this afternoon.

The first vote will be a procedural vote, aiming to stop Matt Gaetz's motion to oust him from the speakership. But there's a problem, Kate. He does not have the votes to win, in large part because a hand -- at least -- more than five Republicans are expected to vote against him, against the speaker on this procedural vote.

And, at the moment, the expectation is Democrats will join those Republican detractors, McCarthy recognizing that he could potentially lose that procedural vote. Then they will move into what will be a historic vote on the House floor, it could happen today, it could happen tomorrow, to vacate the speakership, something that has never happened in the history of this country.

Could happen as soon as today. And McCarthy is at risk of losing that vote. And if he does lose that vote, that is where things get incredibly tricky, McCarthy at the moment indicating that he plans to fight this out on the House floor. He could very well be a candidate in a new speaker's race.

But in order to elect a speaker, you need 218 votes. And at the moment, nobody has 218 votes, especially if McCarthy continues to put himself up for the speakership and if Democrats don't at the end of the day save him, something they don't seem to have much appetite for doing at the moment.

But this all of huge significance, because, if there's no speaker, the House cannot act, and Congress is paralyzed, essentially putting this institution and the efforts to make law in complete paralysis.

In talking to Republicans this morning, there is enormous frustration with Congressman Matt Gaetz, the leader of this effort to push out Kevin McCarthy, and blunt warnings from a number of Republicans that going ahead could cost them their majority.

[11:05:07]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DERRICK VAN ORDEN (R-WI): The only word I can describe for that is either -- he's either a fool or a liar.

QUESTION: You think Matt Gaetz is a chaos agent?

REP. MARCUS MOLINARO (R-NY): And I don't have tolerance for some pseudo-psycho-political fetish. REP. ANDY BARR (R-KY): I'm telling you, it definitely puts the

majority in jeopardy when you see disunity.

REP. STEVE WOMACK (R-AR): I think it's sending a terrible signal to the electorate in advance of the '24 election that this Republican majority cannot govern itself. And we need to change that.

RAJU: Do you worry that it could cost you the majority? Could it cost you the majority?

WOMACK: Could. Sure could.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that is a real fear right now, that even though McCarthy has an overwhelming amount of support within the conference, he does not have enough support among Republican votes alone to move ahead.

And there's been some talk, Kate, about a possible power-sharing deal with Democrats. Perhaps that could save McCarthy and win over Democratic support. McCarthy, though, just moments ago, earlier this morning, rejected that possibility when I asked him about it -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yes, moments ago could be very different in conversation moments from now with how things are going over there with Republicans right now.

Manu's on top of it.

Manu, thank you so much.

Let's get over to Lauren Fox right now.

Lauren, what are you hearing from Democrats over there?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, their meeting still ongoing.

You're starting to see a couple of members trickle out of this, but one thing to keep in mind here, they brought in some extra food. They brought in lunch. That means that they could continue this meeting for even longer. But let me take you inside the room.

A number of Democrats that we have spoken to who have left this meeting said, member after member that went to the mics made clear that there is not a lot of trust for House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Here's what Richie Neal said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICHARD NEAL (D-MA): But I think it's safe to say there's not a lot of good will in that room for Kevin McCarthy. And based...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Is there any reason to keep Kevin McCarthy? NEAL: All of the conversation in there, if there's a central part of

the focus, it's lacking trust in Kevin McCarthy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And Diana DeGette, she left this room, another Democratic member. We asked her if she wanted to make any announcements about what Democrats have decided about McCarthy's future, how they would vote on a procedural vote later this afternoon.

She said she wants Leader Jeffries to talk to the press. She wants Leader Jeffries to be the one to come out. But she said, over and over again in that room, it became very clear that Democrats feel disrespected by McCarthy. They feel like he has breached multiple agreements that he's entered into with the president and with their colleagues.

So, obviously, things are moving very quickly in there, and the takeaway from Democrats, not a lot of good will for McCarthy.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I'm going to let you go, because I just saw Jerry Nadler, a couple others coming out. So you can chase a couple members to see what they're getting coming out of this meeting, because -- thank you so much, Lauren -- because we just spoke with a member of the House leader -- Republican House leadership team, Nicole Malliotakis, last hour.

And she acknowledged that Democrats have the leverage here. So, where things go from here, I mean, truly stand by.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: As you keep on telling us, things can change in the next two- and-a-half-hours.

However, at 11:07 and 34 seconds, as I'm looking at the clock right now, Kevin McCarthy does not have the votes to stay as speaker unless Democrats change their mind. And at 11:07 and 43 seconds now, we have no indication that Democrats have changed their mind and will support him, not yet.

BOLDUAN: They don't trust Kevin McCarthy. Look no further than the discussions over keeping the government open and avoiding the government shutdown.

The tactic that Kevin McCarthy took at first was to align with the far right of his party, which are now trying to oust him.

SIDNER: Kevin McCarthy is saying he doesn't need their help. He does. And that is very clear.

But we are also hearing that, one after another, inside of that closed-door meeting, that one Democrat after another, Manu Raju is reporting, is going up there saying, we have no love loss for him, and we do not need to save his speakership.

BERMAN: Well, good thing...

BOLDUAN: Maybe he threads a needle and -- I don't know what.

SIDNER: We don't know.

BOLDUAN: I mean, there's always a way to thread a needle. And there's always some magical lever to be pulled.

SIDNER: Yes.

BOLDUAN: I just don't see it on this one for Kevin McCarthy to do this without Democratic support.

We will see. We will see.

BERMAN: It could be an historic day.

And you will be speaking to a Democratic member in just a few minutes.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: So we could get much more clarity on where things are headed.

But it does look like a collision course with history right now.

BOLDUAN: That's a good point.

BERMAN: In the meantime, important developments inside Donald Trump's civil fraud trial.

The judge just made clear what can and cannot be discussed and what has already been determined. Namely, this judge made clear that he's already ruled that Trump committed fraud. And he's sort of done listening to arguments about that.

CNN's Brynn Gingras live outside the courthouse in downtown Manhattan with the very latest -- Brynn.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, I mean, we're on day two of the civil trial, which is expected all the way to last until just before Christmas.

And, like you just said, the judge going onto the bench this morning, saying he fully expects defense attorneys to appeal this trial and also saying that "This trial is not an opportunity to mitigate what I have already decided," referencing that decision he made last week about finding Trump and his adult sons and the Trump Organization liable for fraud.

[11:10:16]

So, we will see how this continues. But on the stand right now, we are hearing more testimony from Trump's former accountant Donald Bender talking about the nitty-gritty of those financial statements, how property valuations were figured out, who figured them out, who signed off on them, all of those details. And we will continue to hear from the defense, of course, who is

fighting for the fact that there was no intent, there was no fraud when preparing financial statements and making valuations of properties. And their point, they say, there was no victims in this case.

So that is the arguments that we will continue to see echo throughout this long civil trial. Inside the courtroom, I can tell you that the former president walked in again, did not acknowledge New York Attorney General Letitia James, who's also seated in the courtroom, right now.

This is right after he made some statements again outside the courtroom about her and about the judge again. And also his son Eric Trump is also in the courtroom as well. The question is, how long do all of them, especially the former president, do they plan to stay today?

They were here the full day yesterday. That remains to be seen how long he will stay for this testimony. We also want to know how many times he will actually be back at this courtroom. We know he is eager to testify in his own defense, so we fully expect that to happen.

Again, a lot of stake here. We have been talking about it. Kristen Holmes has given great details about what is at stake here, his brand. He is eager to defend it. And, as we have mentioned, the state has said in their opening statements, closing it out, saying that they are asking the judge to make sure that the Trumps never do business in New York again.

So this is one we will, of course, continue to closely watch.

SIDNER: And so far, for the past two days, Donald Trump has made his own opening statement, so to speak, to cameras outside.

Really...

BOLDUAN: If you will.

SIDNER: If you will.

BERMAN: Yes.

SIDNER: Really sort of putting this out to the public in a way that you would do in a political campaign, as opposed to a trial.

We will keep watching. I know you will get us all the details. Thank you so much, Brynn Gingras, there outside the court.

BOLDUAN: From one courtroom to the next.

Hunter Biden, he has now left a Delaware courthouse after pleading not guilty to three felony gun charges just this morning. The president's son, he was released on conditions following a hearing. It lasted just under 20 minutes, but there's a long road ahead.

CNN's Paula Reid, she was in the courtroom. She's joining us now.

Paula, what did you see and hear in there? And where do things go from here?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, Hunter Biden entered the court just before 10:00 with his lead attorney, Abbe Lowell, the rest of his legal team, and a Secret Service detail.

And he sat at the defense table listening intently while the judge laid out the charges, the potential penalties, and the conditions of his release, which include no drugs, no alcohol, and the fact that he cannot be in possession of a firearm.

And then he entered a plea of not guilty through his attorney, Abbe Lowell. So, we barely heard Hunter speak throughout this hearing. Even though it was short, it was procedural, this is still a historic moment. This is the first time that the child of a sitting president has been arraigned on criminal charges.

But let's take a look at how we got here. Hunter Biden has been under federal criminal investigation for a little over five years. A Trump- appointed U.S. attorney investigated him for that length of time, and it appeared that that investigation was going to be resolved with a plea deal on some tax charges, and then these gun counts were going to be diverted.

But that plea deal fell apart, and the prosecutor, who is now a special counsel, filed three counts related to Hunter Biden's possession of a gun, alleging that he lied to the ATF and the gun dealer, and that he was illegally in possession of a gun while on drugs.

But in a statement that was actually just released, Abbe Lowell suggested that these charges have been filed because the Justice Department has bowed to pressure from former President Trump and his allies to bring any case at all against the president's son.

They point to the fact that no one in the district of Delaware has ever been charged with something like this based on a similar fact pattern, and many legal experts have questioned the strength of this case. Today in court, Abbe Lowell said that he will be seeking an evidentiary hearing to test the strength of the government's case.

Now, sources close to his legal team are confident that, if this goes to trial, that they will ultimately prevail. And it's been interesting to see, Kate. Over the past year, Hunter and his team, they have taken a much more aggressive, forward-leaning approach.

This has been spearheaded by one of his attorneys, Kevin Morris. Kevin Morris brought Abbe Lowell on, and they have been much more litigious when it comes to his detractors, filing lawsuits against people like Rudy Giuliani, issuing more public-facing statements, defending Hunter Biden in the court of public opinion.

And even though this has converted from a plea deal to now a possible criminal trial, that more aggressive strategy shows no signs of cooling down.

[11:15:05]

BOLDUAN: Paula Reid, great to have you there.

Thank you so much, Paula.

BERMAN: All right, with us now former federal prosecutor Shan Wu.

Shan, thank you so much.

I want to go back to what's happening inside the courtroom here in New York, where the judge made clear that he's already ruled that Donald Trump and his adult sons have committed fraud. They can appeal that, the Trump team can, later on, but he's going to stop really hearing arguments about that specific matter inside the courtroom for now.

What does this mean for the trial going forward? Is it like a football analogy where you start with the ball, I was going to say at the 50 yard line, but where you start with the ball your opponent's 30 yard line? How does that shape each argument now?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think this is more like the touchback, where you're back in the end zone, what they're trying to do here.

BERMAN: Safety.

WU: The problem...

(LAUGHTER)

WU: The problem for the lawyers is, they aren't Trump, who wants to make these campaign statements, press conferences. They're not supposed to be doing that in the courtroom.

And they are wasting the...

BERMAN: Hang on, Shan, one second.

We have -- the most important man in Washington right now, Hakeem Jeffries, is speaking.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): ... encourage our Republican colleagues who claim to be more traditional to break from the extremists in the chaos, in the dysfunction, in the extremism.

We are ready willing and able to work together with our Republican colleagues, but it is on them to join us to move the Congress and the country forward.

(CROSSTALK)

JEFFRIES: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, we missed the beginning part of that from Hakeem Jeffries.

But the part we heard, what it sounded like to me is, he was telling Republicans: This is on you. If you want to save Kevin McCarthy, this is on you. You have to do that. If you want something else, you have got to come to us with something.

BOLDUAN: And it is on them. It is on them. That's not a political statement. It is on them.

Kevin McCarthy has found himself in between a rock and a hard place of his own design, which he has ended up with, with the ability -- the deals he cut to become speaker is allowing for this single member to bring forward a motion that could kick him out of the speakership.

And that's what he's seeing right now.

SIDNER: And that's what Matt Gaetz is doing. He is keeping his promise to try and oust the speaker.

But we also heard from McCarthy, and he was very strong on saying: I don't need Democratic help. That's not true.

BOLDUAN: Well, it...

SIDNER: But he went out and he said that.

BERMAN: Yes.

SIDNER: And he also said a lot over the weekend, blaming Democrats for the potential shutdown. So there are a lot of bad -- there's a lot of bad blood here.

And over and over and over again, we are hearing from Democrats and Republicans.

BERMAN: Let's back to Hakeem Jeffries here.

SIDNER: Let's listen again.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

JEFFRIES: ... problems for everyday Americans. That has been our objective from day one. And if there are a few Republicans who are willing to break with the extreme MAGA Republicans in their midst, we are ready, willing and able to find common ground to continue to make progress for hardworking American taxpayers.

RAJU: But are you open at all to voting...

(CROSSTALK)

RAJU: Are you going to vote to table?

QUESTION: Will your members vote present, sir?

BOLDUAN: Just so you -- what you also aren't hearing is him saying: We will never vote to support or help Kevin McCarthy.

He's essentially saying, as you just said: This is on you Republicans. Come to us.

So, I'm going to keep saying it until it doesn't apply, but this is still a stand by to stand by.

SIDNER: Yes.

And there is -- we heard from Kevin McCarthy there are five people who are going to try to oust him. So he doesn't have the votes at this time. It's got to happen. It's going to happen this afternoon. But if no Democrat comes forward, if none of the Democrats come forward, he's sunk. This could be his last day as speaker.

BERMAN: And as we keep saying, as of now -- we're now at 11:18 -- there's no indication that a Democrat is going to vote to save Kevin McCarthy.

That could change. That could change, because Hakeem Jeffries seemed to invite some entreaties over the next two hours.

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: But I think it's an uphill battle as things stand.

And we are going to speak to a Democrat in just a moment.

I want to make clear, Democratic Representative Jayapal right now says: We're not going to be saving Kevin McCarthy.

The Progressive Caucus, which she heads up, has made clear they're not going to vote for McCarthy. It is not big news that Jayapal won't vote to save Kevin McCarthy. The people who might are considered the more moderate members. And none of them have come forward and said they're going to vote for Kevin McCarthy.

BOLDUAN: Look, if we're taking the -- if we're, like -- if we're taking the temperature right now, it feels this hour that Kevin McCarthy is -- his speakership is more in doubt than I would say even last hour, from what we have been hearing publicly, because that's just the way -- that's the way it feels right now.

SIDNER: I just want to make one point, because why should people care about this? This is not just inside baseball.

This could cripple the Congress. They could be voting on this over and over and over again, because, right now, Matt Gaetz does not have someone in mind that he has told anyone about for the speakership. So, if McCarthy goes down, then what? A constant battle.

[11:20:07]

BERMAN: We will -- and it all could happen the next couple of hours. So, stand by.

I'm going to bring back in Shan Wu to talk about what's going on in a New York courtroom right now, with the warning, Shan, we don't know if Hakeem Jeffries is going to start speaking again. We're going to go back to Capitol Hill in a heartbeat if we get more information from there.

But what we were talking about is how the two legal teams approach the fraud case now that the judge has already made clear there was fraud, and we're not going to argue whether there was fraud anymore in this courtroom. So how do they move on?

WU: Yes, the -- Trump's team needs to really focus on what still remains in the case.

And there's a lot. I mean, there are like six other counts in the case. And those counts do involve intent. Michael Cohen's going to testify. It should be a fun cross-examination for them, although I think it'll hold up pretty well.

They need to move off of playing Trump in the courtroom and playing up to their client sitting there. Maybe it'll change when he's not there, John, because, while he's there, they really have to play to him. The judge is saying to them: Look, I'm tired of you rehashing this point. You have already been sanctioned from making the same arguments over and over again. That's what the appeal's for.

Let's move forward and deal with the issues ahead of you right now. What does the government have to prove? How are you going to counter that? That's what the judge is saying to them. And they're doing themselves and their client a disservice if they just continue to make the same arguments that Trump is making in front of the cameras during his press conferences.

SIDNER: Shan, there is no jury here. We can't say that enough. That was something that was a choice by Trump's defense team and perhaps Donald Trump himself.

They are now arguing with the one person that -- who is going to decide this case. That doesn't seem like a winning strategy. How do you see it?

WU: Well, judges are assumed to be better than laypeople at putting aside personal irritation, putting aside some evidence or arguments that normally wouldn't make it before a jury.

But you're exactly right. Here, the fact-finder and the legal adjudicator are the same person. And the judge is only human. I mean, if you keep wasting the judge's time rehashing the same arguments the judge has already ruled on, and the judge is telling you, quit doing that, one, the judge will be irritated.

But, more importantly, the judge is going to not treat your arguments with as much attention and credibility. His eyes are going to kind of glaze over on this. And that does not do you, as the defense counsel, any good. You really want the judge to be paying attention to what you're saying, not looking at you like, well, you just keep saying the same stuff that I told you not to say.

So I think, going forward, that is a problem for them.

BERMAN: Shan Wu, great to have you. Thank you for being so patient with us.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Talk to you again soon.

SIDNER: All right, still ahead: how police tracked down a kidnapping suspect who snatched a 9-year-old girl who was just enjoying a day at a campground with her family. The little girl was found and is now home. The suspect is in custody. How this all went down -- when we come back.

Plus, a Democratic congressperson will be joining us. Debbie Dingell will be here to tell us exactly what was going on behind those closed doors today, as we wait to hear the fate of Kevin McCarthy, the speaker of the House.

That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:28:00]

SIDNER: We are watching a political storm on Capitol Hill, as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy tries to hold on to the speakership.

It is in jeopardy, McCarthy facing a key vote that will remove him from leadership this very afternoon. House Democrats have been meeting all morning in a closed-door meeting. Some have been coming out telling CNN there is no love loss for McCarthy.

Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell is joining us now.

Thank you so much for taking the time, I know on an extremely busy and important day, and what is a historic day if this goes down in the House today.

Can you tell me first, were you inside the meeting? And, if you were, what happened inside that meeting? What did you see and hear?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): So I'm going to be very careful, because I think that this is a historic day and that the American people need to understand that I think colleagues on the Republican and Democratic side of the House are having very thoughtful discussions about what this means, how you move forward, what the implications have been to date for our democracy.

And I think a lot of people were expressing in my caucus concerns. And I think the caucus wanted to listen to each other and be unified in what happens.

And there was very much consensus on that from all perspectives within our caucus.

SIDNER: We are hearing from people like Representative Mark Takano from California, who said: "I didn't hear a single member express feeling responsible for saving Speaker McCarthy or helping Kevin McCarthy."

He is telling that to our reporters who are outside. Can you give us some sense, is -- are the Democrats, are they a solid bloc? Are they together on this? Are they all going to do the same thing, from what you got from that meeting?

DINGELL: I think that I would tell you that there's a lot of soul- searching.