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House Braces For Key Vote To Oust Speaker McCarthy; Rep. Ralph Norman (R-SC) Discusses Key Vote To Oust Speaker McCarthy. Aired 1:30- 2p ET

Aired October 03, 2023 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:32:12]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: A high-stakes drama playing out right this minute on Capitol Hill. At any moment now, we will watch an historic vote on a motion aimed at removing the speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, of California.

He's hoping to defeat the effort to oust him, an effort spearheaded by Republican hardliner, Matt Gaetz, of Florida, who announced his intention to do so on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" on Sunday.

But if McCarthy's unsuccessful in this key vote, he could be on his way to becoming the very first speaker of the House of Representatives to have his gavel taken away in more than a century.

As we await the vote on the House floor, let's check in on the view from the White House down the street.

CNN's M.J. Lee is there.

M.J., what do we know about how President Biden is reacting to these fast-moving events on Capitol Hill?

M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, it is no surprise that White House officials and advisers to President Biden, they are very closely monitoring everything that is unfolding on Capitol Hill right now.

And it is safe to say there is recognition here at the White House that the White House soon could be dealing with a new speaker of the House and a new leader of an unruly House Republican conference.

Now, I don't have to tell you that President Biden and Speaker McCarthy, they have a complicated working relationship. At times, this relationship has been outright contentious.

But there is, again, a recognition that a new speaker will mean a whole new potentially political landscape for Democrats and this White House to navigate.

I think one urgent priority for this White House that is worth looking at is, of course, the question of Ukraine funding. This is something that got left out of the government funding bill that passed over the weekend.

But we heard President Biden over the weekend seeming to suggest that he had received some new assurances from Speaker McCarthy that he would eventually bring up the Ukraine funding piece of this separately in the House.

Obviously in a scenario where he is no longer the House speaker, all of those conversations, any potential assurances that the White House received, those all end up going out the window.

I will also note, of course, publicly, White House officials, including the president himself, they have been very, very careful over the last couple of days to not publicly weigh in whenever they have been asked about potential leadership changes.

They have said, look, all of this is for lawmakers on Capitol Hill to decide, this is not something that the White House is going to weigh in on.

And there is just a general sense here at the White House, and we're seeing this play out among Democrats on Capitol Hill, that there certainly is no political upside for Democrats to weigh in, in a way that seems like they are helping out Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

TAPPER: M.J. Lee, at the White House, thanks so much.

Let's go to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill right now.

Votes are going to start at any minute, Manu. You're waiting for Speaker McCarthy to walk by your camera. What are you going to ask him?

[13:35:04]

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I want to know what he will do if and when he loses these votes. That is really the big question at the moment.

There seems to be no question that he does not have the votes to survive both the first procedural effort to stop Matt Gaetz's resolution to kick him out of the speakership.

Then it would actually go on to the underlying resolution to actually vacate the speakership, something that's never been successfully executed on the House floor ever in American history.

But at the moment, Kevin McCarthy does not have the votes, doesn't have Democrats who will help him, and has more than five Republicans who will vote to kick him out. He can only afford to lose four Republicans.

So the big question right now is, what happens next? Because then it would go to a speaker's race. They'd have to elect a new speaker. Someone needs to get a majority of votes in the House.

If there's no elected speaker, the House is in a state of paralysis. It can't move forward, it can't legislate. And they must elect a speaker.

The question right now is, will McCarthy put himself up as a candidate for speaker in that situation? He has indicated for some time he's ready to fight. He keeps saying that he's never going to quit.

But does that mean that he won't quit and continue to be a candidate and put his name up over and over again as we saw back in January?

Those are major questions right now, Jake, as the speaker is recognizing he knows full well where the votes lie.

But what is his next step? That's what a lot of members, a lot of his allies want to know, what he will do in the aftermath of this historic vote -- Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Manu Raju, thank you so much.

Waiting on this key vote for speaker, Kevin McCarthy. Stay with CNN. We're going to squeeze in a quick break. We'll be right back.

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[13:41:06]

TAPPER: The U.S. House of Representatives is bracing for a key vote soon over the fate of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy as Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida pushes for McCarthy to be fired.

My panel's back with me.

Ashley Allison, what do you make of the Democrats apparently deciding bye-bye?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean, it's not like Kevin McCarthy is really their friend.

But also, I think this is a really historic moment for Hakeem Jeffries. His position --

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TAPPER: The Democratic leader in the House.

ALLISON: Yes. It's the first time an African-American has had that role.

And he's looking at what the outcome might be in 2024 where he could actually be the speaker of the House if Democrats are able to get back the majority.

And so this is a test of his leadership also. Can he keep his caucus together? Can he make sure that some Democrats that might be more moderate don't actually support Kevin McCarthy?

And they came out, it seems like as a Democratic caucus, to say we are going to vote as a unified bloc. The other thing is that, imagine some Democrats in the caucus that

might be primaried in 2024, what their -- their Democratic opponent might do running an ad for someone who supported Kevin McCarthy in a moment like this.

It's not good politics for the Dems to try to protect Kevin McCarthy. Leave it to the Republicans to figure it out.

TAPPER: You know, it's also interesting because, after that tumultuous House speaker vote in January, there seemed to be this kind of nice moment between Democratic Leader Jeffries and Speaker McCarthy.

There seemed to be this kind of, oh, look, they're getting along and they're going to work together. I guess that's no longer.

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It was a very, very short honeymoon. Shortest in history.

You know, to go back to the marriage counselor analogy that was used earlier --

TAPPER: From Congressman Alford, yes.

HEYE: -- right now, Republicans are being mom and dad, and they're having the fight in front of the kids. And it's every kid in America at this point.

And part of why it's gotten so personal is I'd say two images that we saw yesterday. One was of Matt Gaetz on the capitol steps, surrounded by a bank of cameras. That's reason one.

The other was an e-mail solicitation that Matt Gaetz sent out. "Join me in my fight to oust Kevin McCarthy. Click here to give me money." That's reason number two that it's happening.

And if we're having this conversation a year ago on what's going on in the campaign, we're talking about bad candidates that Republicans have nominated.

Republicans have the small majority because Mitch McConnell was right. We nominated a lot of terrible candidates. A lot of them lost, which is why our majority's small.

Some of them won and they're clearly not being helpful actors for McCarthy or the Republican majority.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: But -- go ahead.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I was just going to say that, yes, Hakeem Jeffries and Kevin McCarthy have almost nothing in common when it comes to policies.

But they have an -- I would even argue still have -- a way better working relationship than most people would know. I guess now it's out that they text regularly. It's completely different than Kevin McCarthy and Nancy Pelosi, who barely --

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TAPPER: Kevin McCarthy made quite clear--

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Exactly. On speaking terms.

TAPPER: What did he say?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: And Kevin McCarthy was speaking to reporters and was talking about that, what you're saying, and actually said he had no relationship with Pelosi.

I mean, that that relationship did not exist and that that was a -- would not be in any position like he's in with Jeffries today of even having a conversation. He couldn't have been more clear about how --

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Despite being from the same congressional delegation from California.

BASH: Well, that's true. Or maybe because of that.

So given that and given the fact that Hakeem Jeffries, it's not like he has this sort of love for Kevin McCarthy. They have a working relationship.

One of the questions -- and this is why you're hearing Kevin McCarthy use the word "institution." One of the questions --

TAPPER: All of a sudden.

BASH: -- that Hakeem Jeffries was grappling with is, my understanding, was what we're going to likely see this afternoon will do to the institution of the House of Representatives.

[13:45:06]

He decided, it seems, after the meeting this morning and what he said before the cameras, that it's not up to Democrats to worry about the institution. Republicans were the ones elected in the majority. They have to deal with the institution.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: But can I just say, Kasie, what I've heard from Democrats about Kevin McCarthy, what the institution of Congress is, Kevin McCarthy was out there saying that Donald Trump won the election in a landslide.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Right.

TAPPER: Kevin McCarthy, in addition to supporting the big lie about the 2020 election, literally voted to disenfranchise the voters of Pennsylvania and Arizona after the insurrection, when bodies -- when dead bodies were still warm, he still voted that way.

And I think a lot of people are like, since when do you care about institutions?

HUNT: Yes. I think that's why there's such a credibility deficit. Right? If McCarthy didn't have those issues that you ticked through -- I mean, perhaps he wouldn't be speaker today.

But certainly there wouldn't -- I think the conversation around whether he was worth saving would be a more intensive one.

I think Dana's right. They do have a working relationship. They're from the same generation. They have kids around the same age. They get each other in a way that Pelosi and McCarthy -- she barely deigned to speak to Kevin McCarthy. Let's be realistic about that.

I think the question here, big picture I have, Jake, is, at the end of the day, we're talking a lot about what's best for everybody's political interests, what's best for Kevin McCarthy. I kind of wonder what is best for the country.

TAPPER: Right.

HUNT: And I think there are two potential ways this could go. One is that Republicans realize McCarthy is untenable. There's somebody else that steps up, a Tom Emmer or Steve Scalise or somebody else and they manage to get 218 and we kind of continue on.

And perhaps, Democrats regret that they have a more conservative speaker, somebody who has more power, honestly, than Kevin McCarthy.

Or we see a situation where there's a prolonged fight over getting a speaker at all. And instead, we're talking about potential secret lists -- this person's in the presidential line of succession. They're critical to our government functioning.

TAPPER: Right.

HUNT: I mean, we are sending quite a message to the rest of the world in potentially having functionally a headless House that's incapable of doing anything.

And I think if we get to that point, there's going to have to be some real soul searching among everyone involved in this whole catastrophe about what to do to keep the country in the place it should be.

TAPPER: But I guess the other question is, with such a slim majority, the Republicans -- like these five rogue congressmen -- I don't have a better term for them. But the Gaetz Five, let's call them for now.

Like who are they willing to support? I mean, are they willing to support Tom Emmer? Are they willing to support Tom Cole?

HUNT: Right. TAPPER: I don't know.

HUNT: Which is why that first path is not clear.

TAPPER: I don't know that --

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: I don't know that they're willing to support Steve Scalise. I have no idea who they're willing to support.

We're going to squeeze in another quick vote. We're waiting on this quick vote on Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Stick with CNN.

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[13:52:33]

TAPPER: All right. I've just been informed that the Gaetz Five, who are challenging Speaker Kevin McCarthy's political future, are now the Gaetz Six.

Let's get to CNN's chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju, on Capitol Hill, standing with Republican Congressman Ralph Norman.

He's not a member of the Gaetz Six, I should point out, Manu.

RAJU: That's right, Congressman Norman, a member of the House Freedom Caucus. But someone who is voting to keep McCarthy in the speakership at this moment.

Why?

REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): I don't think the timing is right. We got 43 days to get the appropriations bill over. Let us do that.

He can't surrender to the Senate and cannot agree of the threat of shutdown. But Senate owns it. So I think he -- Kevin deserves that.

Now Kevin caused this. That's the reason we're to this point. He didn't push it in June or July. So, I think that's right.

RAJU: If he loses this, then he's going to be out of the speakership, to vacate the chair.

Do you continue to support him, if he goes to the floor, ballot after ballot after ballot? Your support is unshakeable right now?

NORMAN: Yes, the timing is wrong. Look at the things we face in the country. Look at the things that are on the line. It's a pivotal time. Yes, I did in January with the 15-15 votes.

RAJU: You were skeptical at first. At first, you didn't support him. Now, you're totally on the McCarthy team.

NORMAN: I didn't support him, but he made some great concessions that helped the country. There weren't any earmarks for Ralph Norman. It wasn't anything for me.

It was the fact that we wanted 72-hours' notice. We wanted single- subject bills. We wanted amendments. So it was great. And I think most people agreed to that.

RAJU: You were part of those talks in January. Matt Gaetz said he violated a bunch of promises. And it's time for new leadership. Do you disagree with Matt Gaetz? What is your message to Congressman Gaetz?

NORMAN: What he did -- well, Matt -- Kevin is in this shape because of things he didn't do. But the thing is, he deserves the time -- on the debt ceiling, he surrendered.

He said, let us go to the corporations and he would pretty much make sure that the numbers that we wouldn't be sold down the river and just spinning it into oblivion.

He's got it do that. And he deserves the 45, 30, 35 days to do that.

RAJU: How do you think it makes the party look right now. This is something we haven't seen on the floor for a hundred years. It's never happened before in American history that the speaker has actually been ejected from the speakership.

[13:55:06]

As we're going to see this afternoon, as you guys heading into a very different election environment to keep the majority. How does this look?

NORMAN: It shows a Republican Party that is eager to debate. It shows a Republican Party that, if the people feel strongly, they use the voting card.

They're no longer controlled by anybody but their conscience. It's a great voting process. That's why we didn't do it in January. Hasn't been done for, I think, 70 years before now.

But on this vote, it's the same way. It hasn't happened. That's fine. I have no problem with this. It's a Democratic process. I'm not voting to change the rule or motion to vacate.

And in the private sector, if you don't do the job, you get fired. Same thing for government.

RAJU: We'll see if he gets fired here.

Congressman Ralph Norman, thank you so much for your time.

Back to you.

TAPPER: All right, Manu, thanks so much.

Stay with CNN. We're following this key vote on Kevin McCarthy's political future. Our special coverage continues.

We're going to squeeze in one more quick break. Stay with us.

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