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Rep. Greg Murphy (R-NC) Discusses Expected House Vote On Kevin McCarthy's Speakership; At Any Moment, Key Vote On Speaker McCarthy's Political Future; Now: House Voting To Block Gaetz-Led Effort To Oust McCarthy; House Fails To Block Effort To Oust McCarthy; Now: House Debates Ahead Of Vote To Oust McCarthy. Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired October 03, 2023 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:30:00]
REP. GREG MURPHY (R-NC): So we have to be -- we have to learn how to rule.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Next question, your prediction, will Kevin McCarthy be speaker next week?
MURPHY: Yes. I believe so. It's going to take lots of rounds. It is what it is.
I'm a surgeon. I'm used to going the distance. And he's going to go the distance also.
RAJU: We'll see what happens here.
All right, Congressman Murphy, thank you.
Jake, back to you.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Manu, thanks so much.
Let's bring our panel back.
Kasie, you were making the point that none of this can be seen in a vacuum.
KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
TAPPER: That obviously, the dysfunction is part and parcel of a certain attitude that is in the GOP, that Donald Trump brought even if more to the fore.
HUNT: Yes. I think, obviously, you could argue that the House of Representatives, obviously, does hide as much as anybody did.
But the House of Representatives is the leading indicator that it showed us where we're going. I don't necessarily think it brought us Trump. But I think it's an evolution of the same type of thing.
Trump, obviously, he's a cult of personality. He was famous for other reasons. There are many unique things that have created Donald Trump the way that he is.
But the politics that underlie it, especially the fervor in that base, in the MAGA base -- David, you spend so much time looking at these people and trying to understand what motivates them.
We know it's not the whole Republican Party that feels this way or agrees with Matt Gaetz. But it is a segment that's very loud and very insistent and very defensive where they are.
I would argue it's as much cultural as political at this point but it's a phenomenon, the way the government is set up, capable of paralyzing our government.
TAPPER: One of the things that's interesting, that we're watching right now, as the House begins to gavel in. But they're not beginning to part right now -- well, let's listen in for a second.
Here's Matt Gaetz.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Mr. Speaker, I rise to the privileges of the House and offer the resolution I previously announced.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The clerk will report the resolution.
UNIDENTIFIED HOUSE CLERK: House Resolution 757, resolved, that the office of speaker of House of Representatives was hereby declared to be vacant.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The resolution qualifies as a question of the privileges of the House.
For what purpose does the gentleman from Oklahoma seek recognition?
REP. TOM COLE (R-NC): Motion to table at the desk.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: Clerk will report the motion.
UNIDENTIFIED HOUSE CLERK: Mr. Cole of Oklahoma just laid the resolution on the table.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The question is in the motion to lay the resolution on the table.
Those in favor will say aye.
MULTIPLE REPRESENTATIVES: Aye.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: Those opposed, no.
MULTIPLE REPRESENTATIVES: No.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it.
The gentlelady from Pennsylvania?
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSWOMAN Yes, we would request the yeas and nays on this vote.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The yeas and nays are requested. Those favoring the vote by the ayes and nays will rise.
A significant number having risen, the yeas and nays are ordered.
Members will record their votes by electronic device. This is a 15- minute vote.
(GAVEL)
TAPPER: So, just to explain what's going on right now, Matt Gaetz, Congressman Matt Gaetz, who is leading the effort to fire Speaker McCarthy introduced what will is House Resolution 757. That is a motion to vacate, to fire McCarthy.
Then Congressman Tom Cole, a Republican from Oklahoma, he introduced a motion to table that. There is now a vote on whether or not to table this motion.
A vote aye is a vote in favor of keeping Speaker McCarthy as speaker. So aye means pro-McCarthy, Nay means no, let's vote on getting rid of him.
Manu Raju, let's go to you and get your view of what's going on right now.
RAJU: Yes, one of the things to look out here, Jake, is the number of absences on the Democratic side. We're told that a handful of numbers aren't able to make this vote.
That could change the threshold. Because what they're counting on here is the majority of members voting and present. If there are fewer than 435 members in the chamber, which we expect, that would lower the overall threshold in order for this motion to succeed.
We will see if that could actually help Kevin McCarthy if there are enough Democratic absences to offset the Republicans pushing to oust him here. That is one of the key questions at this moment.
But right now, as you can see, there are 10 Republicans who are voting to essentially keep this resolution alive. We've been saying all along, if all 435 members are there and all Democrats vote for this effort, he only needs five.
Matt Gaetz only needs five Republicans to side with him. Already 10 and counting. That is a very bad sign for Kevin McCarthy. But again, the question will be, how many members ultimately are there and voting?
But also, we're seeing one Democrat vote -- a Democratic member voting yes. We'll see if that's a mistake or intentional or not. Sometimes, the members vote and realize they meant to vote no or yes, and they change it before the time is up here.
[14:35:03] But at the moment, 10 Republicans voting and counting, a warning sign for Kevin McCarthy that he could very well lose this vote.
But again, we will see how many absences are there, whether that changes the thresholds there for the speaker. But for the moment, not looking good for him in the first key vote -- Jake?
TAPPER: That's right. There are roughly 12.5 minutes left in the 15- minute vote.
Right now, it's not looking good, because, of course, as Manu just pointed out, he can only afford to lose four House Republicans, assuming that all of the other House Republicans vote yea and all of the other Democrats vote nay.
Which we assume is going to happen. Although, there is one Democrat voting yea, which is to table the motion.
Again for those keeping track at home, a yea is in favor of tabling the motion to get rid of McCarthy. And a nay is in favor of proceeding with the vote to get rid of McCarthy. It's all very wonky. But basically, yea means for McCarthy, nay means against McCarthy.
And right now, as we're looking, and Manu pointed out, the no votes are actually significant as well. We'll get into that when we get down to the number at the end
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Yes --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Yes, the Democrat either made a mistake or somebody said, what on earth are you doing?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
TAPPER: He said, oh, I think this is nonsense. And he said, you're going to get primaried -- I'm making that all up.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And the other thing to look at is "Pres." That's present. One of the things prior to this morning's caucus meeting -- you're nodding your head.
But what I have heard from some Democratic House members was that they were considering voting present. Why? Because what voting present does is bring the overall threshold -- Manu was saying, if everybody is there, it's 218.
It brings the overall threshold of what is needed down, which could make it easier, in this case, to sort of cut through all of the procedure here, make it easier for Kevin McCarthy to survive, without actually having to vote to make him survive. You're nodding your head but my impression, after this morning's
caucus, is that Democrats are not going to do that anymore.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, that was the talk, late last week, over the weekend. Maybe the "STATE OF THE UNION" -- or the interview he did, "Face the Nation," might have changed that.
But coming out of caucus today, I don't think any Democrat is going to vote yea or present.
It makes me think back to the summer of 2020 when the polls around the midterms, and people were being asked, how do you feel about the direction of the country? And folks were saying they don't really like the direction it's going in.
I think they're talking about votes like this. I think they're talking about moments like this.
We have 43 days to figure out how the government stays open and how we fund our budget. And we're wasting time on this.
TAPPER: So, we started out this vote, knowing that there were six Republicans who were clearly going to vote to get rid of McCarthy. We now know of 10.
One of the original six was Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee, who has now issued a statement -- or not issued a statement. Spoken to reporters.
He told reporters that Speaker McCarthy called him and condescended to him about a previous statement he made about how he was praying on his decision.
On the way to the floor, Burchett told reporters, quote, "When I make a statement that I am praying about it and I get a call from the speaker that he belittles that, to me, that shows another reason we need a change in leadership, unquote."
I was, obviously, not privy to the phone call, but that is the reason that Burchett believes that McCarthy was belittling his comment that he was going to pray on that, which is obviously not what you want to be conveying, even if by accident, to somebody who is voting against you.
Right now, we have, roughly, 50 individuals who have yet to vote. And, again, all of the Democrats who have voted, 171, as of this moment -- 172, have voted against McCarthy, against tabling the resolution, in favor of a motion to vacate, in favor of voting to get rid of McCarthy.
And 10 Republicans are with them. 203 Republican, the majority of the majority are not with Matt Gaetz. But 10 Republicans is a lot.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Sorry, should make clear, that number 10 that you're looking at, the Republicans who are voting against the motion to kill this effort --
[14:40:04]
TAPPER: Yes.
CHALIAN: -- to oust McCarthy. That may not be where the number is, should we get to an actual vote on vacate.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Sure.
CHALIAN: So some Republicans -- you've been noting the Gaetz Six. We would actually have to get to motion to see if that number increases here.
TAPPER: Correct.
CHALIAN: Clearly, the Gaetz Six have some comradery, some votes who are saying, hey, we should get that much, we should get to --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Look, two things, Jake. First of all, part of this motion, and what we're not seeing here is that, in theory, this could have made it more difficult for Democrats to get rid of the Gaetz motion.
This is technically not an up and down vote on helping McCarthy. This is a procedural move that members of Congress feel they can spin when they get home. Senate, they did a lot of same things in a lot of places.
But this is important because the Democrats are united in, nope, you're not taking our best opportunity to help Kevin McCarthy. They'll see how it plays out.
But, two, I think we should step back for a second and think about the big picture of what we're seeing unfold.
Because we haven't, as you repeated, Jake, seen anything like this since 1910, when we certainly didn't have access to C-SPAN when we could see this playing out on the House floor.
And flashing back to January when we saw McCarthy go through this 15 times, to the point that blows almost broke out on the House floor. Our politics is pretty broken, I think, bottom line.
TAPPER: The vote in 1910 was not close, 119 to 155, in favor of keeping Speaker Cannon in charge. This is going to be much, much closer.
This, of course, is not the vote to get rid of McCarthy. It's just a vote on whether or not they should have a vote on getting rid of McCarthy. It's very close right now, 204 to 203. The burden, of course, is 218
votes. And there's just about six minutes left in the vote.
Doug Heye --
CHALIAN: 218 if everyone is present, right?
TAPPER: 218 if everyone is present.
But with only 21 not voting, 20 not voting, it does look, I'm guessing, it will probably be 218, or close to that.
CHALIAN: We know for one that Nancy Pelosi is not present.
TAPPER: Nancy Pelosi is in San Francisco. She was there to escort the remains of her friend, Dianne Feinstein, back home.
Manu Raju, back on Capitol Hill.
RAJU: Yes, hey, Jake, we got some new information about the Republicans who are defying Kevin McCarthy or voting to advance this resolution to kick McCarthy out of this speakership.
There are 10 Republicans right now, danger territory for the speaker of the House. And those 10 Republicans, according to our colleagues, Kristen Wilson and Harry Taube (ph), in the chamber right now. Those are the 10 at the moment.
We're still waiting on Congresswoman Lauren Boebert, who has been coy about where she is on this.
But, Jake, those are the 10 that are defying the speaker.
And even though they're in the minority of the minority, the fact that they're voting with Democrats shows that this is major danger territory for the speaker of the House to keep his job to potentially push him out, which is expected this afternoon, declaring the office of the speaker vacant.
Because of the support of these members, along with Democrats to oust Kevin McCarthy, that's what -- this will be the end result of these votes here, that are happening.
So those 10 members, those 10 and counting, are voting to kick Kevin McCarthy out here, Jake. We'll see where this vote ends up.
But it's not looking good for the speaker, 215 votes against McCarthy, 204 votes for McCarthy.
If all are voting, 218 will be the magic number. But there are some absences here. It looks like Kevin McCarthy is going to lose his first key vote here -- Jake?
TAPPER: Right. There's still 12 members of Congress who have not voted. We know at least one of them is Nancy Pelosi, who is back in San Francisco. Eleven have not voted. And right now, whether the magic number is 217 or 218, it's hard to
imagine that Kevin McCarthy is not going to be on the losing end of this vote.
This vote is not the vote to oust Speaker McCarthy. This vote is just to proceed to the vote to oust Speaker McCarthy.
But 10 Republicans have joined with 206 Democrats. Those 10 Republicans are Davidson, Crane, Buck, Sparks, Biggs, Rosendale, Gaetz, Good, Mace and Burchett of Tennessee.
[14:45:03]
We heard the reasoning explained by Burchett earlier today. He said he was praying on how to vote. And he got a call from McCarthy. And he thought that McCarthy was making fun of him, was belittling and condescending him when he referred to praying.
That's it, 218 nay votes. They are going to -- unless people change their vote in the next two and a half minutes, Speaker McCarthy, they're going to vote on whether or not to vacate. This has not happened since 1910.
This is a historic vote.
BASH: It's the first time we've seen this graphic, Jake.
TAPPER: It's the first time in history we've seen this graphic, because this did not exist in 1910 when the vote took place with Speaker Cannon. There were not 435 members of Congress.
Also, we should note, this has been a historic speakership. And no matter how you slice it, because it was 15 ballots to get the McCarthy speakership.
It's hard to imagine -- there's the 11th nay, that's Andy Nogales, since he said he was going to vote nay.
We do not know if all of these individuals in the Republican Party who voted to proceed to fire to Kevin McCarthy are going to vote that way.
And I'm sure that the arm-twisting and promises of who knows what are going to be fast and furious, coming from the McCarthy forces.
But it is also difficult to imagine changing your vote, once you have walked down that road of proceeding to want to get rid of your speaker, Doug.
I mean, anything could happen. You could make the argument, hey, I just think it should be up for a vote.
But we already know that there are five --
DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
TAPPER: -- Republicans who are on the record saying they want to fire McCarthy. We don't know that there are 11. But I'd rather not be Kevin McCarthy right now.
HEYE: No. And one of the things that's interesting about the images that we see, if you're not a full-time C-SPAN nerd that we all are that you may not notice --
TAPPER: I'm really not a C-SPAN nerd.
(LAUGHTER)
HEYE: Book notes especially.
A lot of those members of the Matt Gaetz Five or Six, they're all on screen sitting next to each other. And members of Congress congregate in units or clubs. If you're one of those members voting against Kevin McCarthy today, you're sticking very close with that little --
BASH: It's very middle-school cafeteria --
HEYE: Absolutely.
BASH: -- on that House floor.
HEYE: They're all mean girls.
CHALIAN: Do you remember back in January, the House had not fully convened. All of the rules about the cameras were different. We had full access. You could see each of these factions sitting and huddling. We're not going to see it in the House. They have rules.
BASH: It does look like Matt Gaetz is ready.
TAPPER: By the way, Matt Gaetz at the time said he was in favor of keeping the cameras free-floating. I don't know what ever happened to that promise of his.
But --
HEYE: Matt Gaetz wanted more cameras?
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: He wanted the cameras to keep going. That somehow fell by the wayside.
But the motion to vacate did not. And here we see the result of that. The time remaining is zero.
Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The nays are 218. The motion is not adopted.
Pursuant to Clause 282 of Rule 9, the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Gaetz, and the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Cole, will each control 30 minutes.
The chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida. GAETZ: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I yield such time as he may consume to my colleague from Virginia, Mr. Good.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Good, is recognized for such time as he may consume.
Before the gentleman speaks, may I remind my colleagues that all parties need to be heard. Would you please clear the well. And clear the aisles. And any extraneous conversations need to be taken from the floor.
(GAVEL)
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The gentleman from Virginia is recognized.
REP. BOB GOOD (R-VA): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Like so many others, I deeply regret that we are here in what was a totally avoidable situation.
I must take you back to January, however, which, for many of us, was about not repeating the failures of the past, and letting Republican voters across the country down once again.
[14:50:00]
When in the past, for many years, when Republicans have had majorities in this chamber, we have passed our major spending bills, predominantly with Democrat votes. Something the other side of the House has never, and would never do with majority control.
Back in January, I expressed my concern that the previous two years during my first term here in the House, we had not used every tool at our disposal to fight against the harmful, radical, Democrat agenda that is destroying the country, bankrupting the country, and under which the American people are suffering.
Most in here wouldn't know I helped persuade my five colleagues who comprise the remaining resistance in the wee morning hours of January 7th to switch our votes to present to let Mr. McCarthy become speaker.
I went to him on this very floor to tell him he was finally going to become speaker on the next vote. In that moment, it was clear to me that I or we could have asked for anything in exchange for switching our votes to present, but I and we asked for nothing.
The very next week, I requested and had a meeting with Speaker McCarthy to tell him he had my full support and I wanted him to be successful because the country needed him to be successful.
In the ensuing months, I helped him narrowly pass the Parents Bill of Rights and the Grove bill, I think, by one or two votes, helping persuade some of my most conservative colleagues to come along despite some of the concerns they had with those bills. We remained united as a conference through the limited vote as we
passed a bill cutting spending to pre-Covid levels, for non-defense discretionary spending, historic cuts as the speaker committed to do in January. It also included a host of other conservative fiscal reforms.
Unfortunately, however, that unity and that commitment to significant year-one cuts and spending reforms were discarded, were discarded in the Failed Responsibility Act, as I call it, which passed overwhelmingly once again with a majority of Democrat votes, validating the concern many of us had in January.
Many of us had begged the speaker, pleaded with the speaker repeatedly to utilize the debt ceiling, to leverage spending cuts and reforms. Instead, he negotiated an unlimited increase to the debt ceiling through January of '25.
As much as we can come together and gleefully spend through January of 25, with no significant wins for the American people in that FRA, or Failed Responsibility Act.
But the speaker then said that we would use appropriations, we would use appropriations to bring the fight and finally reduce our spending.
He said the levels of the FRA were the ceiling and not the floor and committed -- recommitted multiple times to go back to the $1.471 trillion -- I don't know that was the limit, say grow levels, radically, historically saving $100 billion in lowering the deficit this year under Republican majority from $2.2 trillion to $2.1 trillion.
That's what we were asking the Republican House to do, to go to $2.1 trillion.
Meanwhile, the speaker committed to bring a balanced budget vote to this floor, something that still has not happened despite the work that's been done in our budget committee to mark it up and have it ready to come to the floor.
He also promised we would bring all 12 appropriation bills well before the September 30 fiscal deadline. We did not.
We simply, as Republicans, needed the speaker to cast the vision, request the support of the entire conference, all of whom voted for the limit save grow levels, except for four that wanted to go even further.
To lead us in joining him, sticking with him, supporting him and sending the most conservative spending bills with the most conservative cuts possible to the Senate as the best starting position for negotiations with the Senate.
Many of us begged and pleaded with the speaker to do that over the past five months.
When the speaker failed us to pass our spending bills, bringing only one of 12 to the floor before the August district work period, members began to negotiate amongst themselves without the speaker to find compromise.
I was among those who reluctantly agreed last month to split the difference between failed responsibilities $1.586 trillion and the limit save grow $1.741 trillion, I reluctantly agreed to do that, to go to $1.526 trillion in order to pass our bills onto the Seante.
We then essentially forced the speaker, with the pressure of the calendar, the shutdown threat of the calendar to bring those to the floor last week, all of which I voted for, despite some of them not cutting to levels we agreed to and other concerns I had with the bill.
[14:55:11]
I reluctantly voted for the 30-day conditional C.R., Continuing Resolution, because it cut an additional $10 billion in the month of October, going back to pre-Covid $1.471 trillion for non-defense discretionary, 30 percent and it had border security. I voted for that.
However, when that vote failed, the speaker this past Friday in the Republican conference meeting made it abundantly clear that he was willing to do anything to avoid the temporary discomfort and the pressure of a pause in the 15 percent of the non-essential federal government operations.
Which would guarantee that we would lose to the Senate Democrats and the White House. If you're not willing to say no, then you're guaranteed to lose.
That was confirmed with the passage of the unconditional 45-day C.R. this past Saturday. Once again, with 209 Democrat votes. The Republican bill, 209-1 Democrats, 51-0 on the Senate side.
The speaker fought through 15 votes in January to become speaker but was only willing to fight through one failed C.R. before surrendering to the Democrats on Saturday.
We need a speaker who will fight for something, anything, besides just staying or becoming speaker.
If there was ever a time to fight, with $33 trillion in national debt, a $2 trillion deficit this year, 40-year high inflation, 20-year high interest rates, a downgraded credit rating.
And for the first time in modern history, the polls showing, despite all the help of the media blaming Republicans in the House, the polls showed blaming Biden and the Democrats for the imminent shutdown.
If not fight now, when would we fight? Now is and was the time.
With the Democrats driving the fiscal bus off the cliff at 100 miles an hour, we cannot simply be content to be the party that slows it down to 95 so we can sit in the front seat and wear the captain's hat. Our current debt and spending trajectory is unsustainable. We need a speaker, ideally somebody who doesn't want to be speaker and
hasn't pursued that at all costs for his entire adult life, who will meet the moment and do everything possible to fight for the country.
A red line was crossed for me, I regret, on Saturday. And so I regret I must vote against the motion to table, as I did, and to vote to vacate the chair.
And I yield back.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: The gentleman from Florida reserves his time.
The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Cole.
REP. TOM COLE (R-OK): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I share one thing in common with my friend from Virginia. This is a very sad day and certainly a day I never expected to have to live through.
I think, broadly speaking, as I look across this floor, you can divide members into three groups.
I'm happy to be in the first group. The overwhelming majority of my party supports the speaker we elected. We're proud of the leadership he's shown, proud of the manner in which he's been willing to work with everybody in our conference and in this chamber.
There's a second group, a small group. Honestly, they're willing to plunge this body into chaos and this country into uncertainty for reasons that only they really understand. I certainly don't.
And then there are friends on the other side. I mean friends, honestly, with great sincerity. I have a lot of friends over there.
I recognize my friends on the other side have a very complex set of partisan, personal and political calculations to make. I certainly wouldn't presume to give them any advice about that.
But I would say think long and hard before you plunge us into chaos, because that's where we're headed if we vacate the speakership.
I personally think there's three reasons why we've come to this point. That's why at each critical minute the speaker did the right thing.
First, it was the speaker vote. He got 85 percent of the vote in our conference, 90 percent of the vote from Republicans on this floor.
Yet, we had a small group who decided they would dictate what they want. He didn't let that happen. He fought. He fought for himself, but he fought for 90 percent of us, too, that wanted him to be the speaker, and I appreciate that.
Then, of course, we had the debt ceiling deal. Nobody here thought he could pass a bill. Nobody in America thought he could pass a bill. He did what speakers are supposed to do, he passed the bill.
Then he sat down and negotiated with a Democratic Senate and a Democratic president and came back with a good deal, a deal that will limit spending. He did the right thing.
Finally, last Saturday on this floor, we were on the verge of a government shutdown, a government shutdown that the vast majority of members.
