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House in Chaos; Trump On Trial: New Gag Order. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:36]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: An unprecedented morning in Washington. There is no Speaker of the House, there's no clear date to even elect one. This morning, new details about who Republicans might pick next the day after the Wall Street Journal says they cutoff their own heads.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A brand new gag order in now in place as Donald Trump soon heads back to court in New York this morning. And Georgia, prosecutors there, they're making moves. New reporting on the plea deals of their floating to multiple people charged alongside Donald Trump.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: A historic strike is happening right now and could affect millions of American's healthcare. 75,000 Kaiser Permanente workers walking off the job making this the largest US healthcare strike ever. I'm Sara Sidner with Kate Bolduan and John Berman. CNN News Central starts right now.

BERMAN: This morning, there is no Speaker of the House of Representatives, there is no clear sense who will be speaker, and there is no certainty when there will be a speaker. It is a veritable congressional abyss and an unprecedented one brought on by Republicans after Kevin McCarthy became the first speaker in history voted out by his peers.

This morning, we are getting new reporting on who is jocking for the post, who is making the headway. We're also getting new information about the future of Congressman Matt Gaetz who led the rebellion to oust McCarthy. Now, some of his Republican colleagues want to boot him fro the conference.

And while all of this is happening, what is not happening is the nation's business. The House is paralyzed as the government shutdown looms just weeks away. CNN's Lauren Fox in the aftermath of it all, the fallout on Capitol Hill. Good Morning, Lauren.

LAUREN FOX: Good morning, John. There is so much we do not know in this moment, just hours after House Speaker Kevin McCarthy announced that he would not run again to become the House Speaker after that historic vote to oust him. Next steps, of course, replacing him and the question of who will get the gavel.

There are already calls and work under way for members to try and gauge support for whether or not they could be the next speaker. Obviously, all eyes are on Majority Leader Steve Scalise. He is already a member of leadership. His team knows how to fight for a leadership position. They've done this before. And they have extensive experience on how to actually run the House floor.

There's also some talk about Kevin Hearn, the leader of the Republican --

BERMAN: So much chaos on Capitol Hill that the lights and the cameras aren't even working there. No speaker, no camera, no dice this morning. Obviously -- obviously -- Well, I don't even know what camera I'm on. Look, we'll get Lauren Fox up back as soon as we can.

The bottom line here, though, Kate, is there is no speaker, there is no date to elect the next speaker, and there is a lot of jockeying right now who will be next. That's the game, not really a game, that's the serious situation right now facing Republicans on Capitol Hill.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk to one of those Republicans who's now having to deal with the fallout now. Republican Congressman Anthony D'Esposito of New York, he is joining us now. Congressman, thank you so much for taking the time. You did not support this move to oust Kevin McCarthy. You were in support to keep Kevin McCarthy.

Now that the sun is up -- one, again has risen again on Capitol Hill, how do you describe the state of things over there?

REP. ANTHONY D'ESPOSITO (R-NY): I think yesterday we saw from Matt Gaetz, one of the greatest acts of heresy that I've seen in a while. He's literally taken one of our oldest institutions and put it into a downward spiral, all over selfish needs, all over Twitter feeds and raising money. And he criticized Republicans, specifically Kevin McCarthy last Saturday, when we were able to pass a bipartisan 45-day CR to keep this country moving forward, to keep our government open.

[09:05:10]

He criticized us that we worked with Democrats. That was one of the reasons as to why he moved the motion to vacate. But yet yesterday, he worked with Democrats, some of the most progressive and far-leaning left in the conference, in order to take Kevin McCarthy out. He is, by every stretch of the definition, a complete hypocrite.

BOLDUAN: I will say this. I heard you say that before about Matt Gaetz working with the left. But this is a Republican conference problem, full stop. I mean, this is a problem amongst Republicans. No Republican would expect Democrats to help join them to vote for speaker just as Democrats wouldn't expect Republicans to do so.

But focusing in on Matt Gaetz, you say it's about -- you said it's hypocritical and heresy. He is not alone, though. There are eight Republicans who voted to oust -- who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy, and the word from some of them are, they are -- did not trust Kevin McCarthy. He did not keep his word. I'm hearing -- what do you say to that? D'ESPOSITO: I would have to disagree. I think from January or even right before that, Kevin laid out a clear and concise commitment to America. And we've delivered on that. We've put bills onto the floor that nobody thought that we could pass, and we delivered on them. And working in government, working for our country is about compromise. And some of those individuals had no interest in compromise. It's what they wanted or nothing.

And quite frankly, I think most people, as we saw yesterday, 96% of our conference trusted Kevin McCarthy and supported him to be our speaker. But unfortunately, we had a small group who wanted to play real political games and wanted to use our rules to commit terrorist attacks. And that's what we're dealing with.

BOLDUAN: OK. So I heard Mike Lawler say this morning he thinks the eight who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy should be held accountable. Don Bacon suggested expelling at least Matt Gaetz, if not others from the Republican conference. Do you think they should be held accountable? If so, how?

D'ESPOSITO: Absolutely they should be held accountable. I mean, this is -- what we're seeing today is what we should be focused on is last Saturday we had a win for the American people when everyone said it was impossible, when everyone said that the shutdown was looming in just hours, were able to get onto that floor pass, in a bipartisan fashion, which was in the best interest of Americans.

BOLDUAN: So, what does accountable look like, congressman?

D'ESPOSITO: And have a 45 day -- it really depends. I guess we have to see who our next speaker is. But these individuals need to be held accountable and realize that you cannot continue to act in the manner that they are, because once they have one disagreement with the next speaker or the next leader, we're going to be headed down the same path.

It's not good for America. It's not good for the American people. It's not good for our conference, and it's not good for this institution.

BOLDUAN: Because there is a real question I think a lot of folks have from the outside looking in and what happened yesterday. Does it reinforce behavior, or does it change behavior?

D'ESPOSITO: Well, I really hope that it changes behavior. I mean, I think that probably Matt Gaetz woke up this morning thinking that it reinforces his bad behavior. But I think for the rest of the conference and the people, both Democrats and Republicans, I hope it changes behavior, because that's what really needs to happen here in Washington, DC.

BOLDUAN: The ripple effects are real in the immediate and potentially in the long run. I want to play for you what some of your fellow Republicans are saying about the long term ripple effects of this. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. STEVE WOMACK (R-AR): I think it's sending a terrible signal to the electorate in advance of the 24 election that this Republican majority cannot govern itself, and we need to change that.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you worry that it could cost you the majority?

WOMACK: It could.

RAJU: There are some concern that this leadership crisis could cost you guys your majority. Are you concerned about that?

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): No, I'm not. Actually, I'm not. I think the American public understands what we're doing, and I think they fully support it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Two Republicans coming at this from two very different angles. Steve Womack, who is with you in support of the speaker, well, the former speaker, and Tim Burchett, who is among the eight who voted against to oust Kevin McCarthy. Do you think this hurts you when it comes to reelection?

D'ESPOSITO: I don't. I think that people back home on Long Island, people back home in Nassau County, in the 4th Congressional District understand that I am working as hard as I can. They saw last Saturday when I worked in a bipartisan fashion to keep this government open.

They've seen that I've worked across the aisle. I think been named one of the fifth most moderate Republican in the House of Representatives. They know that I'm working to restore SALT. They know that I'm working to secure our border. That's what I'm focused on, that's the reasons that they sent me here.

[09:10:00]

BOLDUAN: Let me ask this a different way. Does this help you with reelection, showing what the Republicans look like right now?

D'ESPOSITO: Having our House adjourned when we should be putting appropriation bills on the floor and getting this country back up and running doesn't help anyone.

BOLDUAN: Do you have a name for who you would like to be next speaker?

D'ESPOSITO: My ears and eyes are wide open. I know that today we're going to have some meetings. We have the Long Island Crew is going to get together in a little bit, minus, of course, George Santos. We're going to have some discussions based on what is best for our area, for the state of New York and for Long Island. And I'm looking forward to being unified and making the best decision for this country.

BOLDUAN: The Long Island Crew, sounds like a fun party. I'd like to join you guys sometime. Maybe not today, maybe it's more of like a funeral. It's good to have you on, congressman. Thank you very much. A big couple days ahead. Sara?

SIDNER: Great interview, Kate. All right. Joining us now is CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings, former special assistant to President George W. Bush and CNN political analyst and Washington Bureau chief for the Boston Globe, Jackie Kucinich. Thank you both for being here.

Scott, I'm going to start right off the bat with what we just heard. We just heard from Republican Anthony D'Esposito using the word heresy to describe what Matt Gaetz and the others did. I want you to hear one of his New York colleagues, as he was just talking, Mike Lawler, who also said this about what should happen to those who caused this chaos. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): I think there needs to be a reckoning within the conference. There needs to be accountability for the eight individuals who selfishly upended our House majority, and put their own interests above the country, above the conference, and above the institution behind us. In my personal opinion, they need to lose their committee assignments and there needs to be consideration as to whether or not they're even part of the conference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Do you think he's right? I mean, those are some strong words. Kick them out of the conference, take away all of their committee jobs. What do you think?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, whoever the next speaker is going to have to wrestle with this, but I assume that person is going to need their votes. And so the core issue is, do the Republicans have a functional majority? The question was just asked to the last representative, will this cost you the majority?

In some ways it already has, because you have people effectively conferencing with the Democrats to control the floor. They conferenced with the Democrats to defeat McCarthy's more conservative CR, and then they conferenced with the Democrats to defeat McCarthy on the floor.

Right now, I'm not sure the Republicans are the majority party. You've got more of a coalition government, and this group is spending all their time siding with Democrats. To me, the next question is, are the rules going to change? Will one person be able to trigger a leadership crisis? And what is that next speaker going to have to promise this group of seven, particularly on the issue of Ukraine, which I think is a next order consequence.

SIDNER: Funding for Ukraine has been a sticking point, and that's something that was worked out. McCarthy ended up working that out. All right.

Now to you, Jackie, we are, what, 40 something days, 40 or 41 days until the potential of another government shutdown because there has to be a spending bill that has passed yet again. This is what McCarthy just did, surprised everyone. Got it done. There is no speaker. There is no definite replacement for a speaker right now. So, how does Congress even function? Where do we go from here?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Sara, the -- it was already going to be hard for a Speaker McCarthy to try to get these bills at the level that he agreed to during the debt ceiling deliberations passed the House. Now you have someone potentially untested, whoever it ends up being, having to wrangle the same thing and get these Republicans to a place where they can govern. Because what hasn't changed is the Senate is still controlled by Democrats and Joe Biden is still president.

So while the dynamics and the chaos in the House still continues to be a thing, everything else is pretty much the same, and they still have the same realities come 40 days.

SIDNER: Yes. We're hearing from folks inside the White House basically saying, look, all is calm here. We've got this in hand. But Congress needs to get it together. The House needs to figure out what they're doing and get themselves a speaker.

I do want to talk to you about the names that have been floated. Steve Scalise, Jim Jordan, Tom Emmer. These are the names that have sort of bubbled to the top. We know that some phone calls are being made from them to other members, these possible names.

JENNINGS: Well, I think they're all great. I think Scalise -- Emmer had signaled that he would be for Scalise. To me, the real question is Kevin McCarthy going to try to play kingmaker here? I mean, there's obviously people who wanted him to run again, and is he going to express a preference, and is he going to try to lead a group towards that preference?

But it strikes me that in the early stages of this, Scalise, I think, should barely be considered the front runner. But there are several days. They're going home for several days, they don't have a candidate for them until next Tuesday, so a lot of conversation.

[09:15:12]

SIDNER: Why in God's earth would you do that? Why would you leave after causing this ruckus, why would you walk away and say, all right, we're just going to take a break now?

JENNINGS: Maybe they need a cooling off period. I mean, I think it's pretty raw inside that conference. I think emotions are high. I think there's a lot of anxiety and tension. It actually may do some good for them to go home, settle down, come back and be ready to deal with each other, because I think have you heard some of the floor speeches yesterday?

SIDNER: Yes.

JENNINGS: These are not people who have -- there's a lot of mistrust and tension among those people. See, when you put them back in the room next Tuesday, they're going to have to find a way to work together. They're supposed to be the majority party but they're not acting like it right now.

SIDNER: And that's a question I wanted to ask you, Jackie, as well. Democrats and Republicans are going to have to work together, but the Republicans first have to work together with one another to get a name that they can put forward. How do you see this playing out? Is this going to go on for days, you think?

KUCINICH: I think it really depends on who the person mean. Scott's right. Steve Scalise, he's already making calls. He's someone that a lot of the conference likes and trusts. But I really think the hang up is going to be this motion to vacate. Do they change that rule? Because no matter who the speaker is, they're going to have this over their head. And if you've got ten members of the conference that are mad at you, you could have a real problem and it could be musical speakers. I mean, that is not impossible.

So they're going to really have to have a real conversation about whether this makes sense going forward. And they're certainly going to have pushback from those members of Congress who just utilized it and have a fresh sense of the power that they have.

SIDNER: Yes.

JENNINGS: You'd be crazy to take this job if that rule doesn't change, because if one person can go to -- I mean, if you've got a conference that big and you only have 10 or 15 people mad at you at any given time, what are you guys are doing?

SIDNER: Right.

Jennings: And so to, they would want that rule change but I don't know that this group is going to want that because that takes away all their power. So this is a real debate.

SIDNER: That's right.

KUCINICH: Exactly.

BERMAN: That's how McCarthy got in, he agreed to it, and now here we are. We will have to wait and see, all right. Thank you so much to both you, Scott, and to you, Jackie. John?

BERMAN: All right. Any moment, a gagged Donald Trump arrives in court. New reporting on what he did that pushed a judge to silence him and what it means for his fraud trial going forward. The largest healthcare strike in the country's history, how it could affect your healthcare. And five people shot on a college campus during a homecoming week event. Police have yet to identify a suspect.

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[09:21:51]

BERMAN: All right. Happening now, Donald Trump gagged for the first full day here in New York. Trump right now is on his way to attend the civil trial where he has already been found liable for fraud, and now he is forbidden from posting emailing or speaking publicly about any members of the court's staff, something Trump has done repeatedly each day of this trial.

The judge issued the order after Trump attacked the clerk online. CNN's Brynn Gingras outside this new day of court with this new situation for those involved, Brynn.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And we don't expect him to not stop talking at all, John. I imagine when he gets here, he will go once again in front of the cameras, as he always really does right before heads into the courtroom for day three of this civil trial.

But like you just said, the judge yesterday issuing this strong rebuke, directing it right at the defense's table at the former president who was sitting there because of this Truth Social post that he posted online yesterday. And it was a picture of the judge's clerk with Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer saying in the post that she is Schumer's girlfriend without any evidence to back that up.

Well, that was just a bridge too far, because as you just noted, John, Trump hasn't been shy about making comments about anyone in this trial, the judge or anyone. But this went too far for that judge.

He issued this rebuke saying, personal attacks of any member of my court staff are unacceptable, inappropriate, and I will not tolerate them. And he said, if that is violated, any posts, any emails, then there are going to be strict sanctions. Well, after the day of court ended, everyone was told to leave the courtroom, but both sides of the defense, the state's attorneys, had to come back into the room. And there was some discussion with the judge.

It's unclear what was said behind those closed doors, so it's very unclear what those strict sanctions could be, how they would be enforced. I imagine it was discussed behind those closed doors.

But like you said, today is day three. He is back. We weren't expecting him to come back today, to be quite honest with you, but he has been very engaged with his defense during testimony. And we are continuing to see cross examination of his former accountant today. And it's unclear how long the former president will stay, but certainly, as we've been talking, he has said to defend his brand in a case that really could strip his business empire in New York. John?

BERMAN: All right. Brynn Gingras outside the courthouse, keep us posted when you hear what is going on inside. Thank you very much. Kate.?

BOLDUAN: So this is in New York. In Georgia, plea deal talks are now open in the election subversion case about -- against Trump and 18 others there. The state's case is also drawing near the start of its first trial later this month. So things are really moving there. Sources now telling CNN that Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis has approached several of Trump's co-defendants with offers to try and get them to cooperate. CNN's Zach Cohen is tracking this for us.

And, Zach, there's also some news just coming in about Rudy Giuliani in Georgia.

ZACH COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Kate. A lot of moving pieces and a lot of action in the Georgia case. Let's start with Rudy Giuliani, who we just learned that his lawyer in Georgia is withdrawing from the case. And obviously this comes as Giuliani has -- there's been a lot of questions about how Giuliani is going to pay for his legal representation in the Georgia case. He also faces scrutiny in a variety of civil matters, too.

[09:25:15]

So Rudy Giuliani facing more questions as he loses another lawyer in the Georgia case, where, as you mentioned, prosecutors have floated the idea of plea deals to multiple defendants. Sources telling me and our colleague, Sara Murray, that this includes multiple defendants. That in addition to Scott Hall, the bail bondsman, who's already accepted a plea deal in exchange for cooperation in this case.

And again, this is all happening in the lead up to the start of a trial date here. It's scheduled to start at the end of the month. So prosecutors are trying to both reduce the size, the number of defendants in this case, there's 19 of them, and try to secure some cooperation from them if they're willing to accept lesser charges or to basically flip on their fellow codefendants.

So we're looking ahead to the trial, but prosecutors very busy trying to see if they can reduce the number of defendants and get some cooperation from them in the process.

BOLDUAN: And talk to me about the lead up to this first trial. I mean, it's coming fast. It's coming later this month. What are you learning about how it's taking shape?

COHEN: Yes, absolutely. The two defendants who we expect to have their trial start at the end of the month are Sidney Powell and Ken Chesebro, both pro-Trump lawyers, were involved in various elements to try to overturn the election results in Georgia. And as of now, all things are moving towards a trial. There is no indication yet that either defendant has accepted or is willing to accept some sort of a plea deal that would maybe change the dynamic there.

But we're looking ahead, and prosecutors and defense attorneys are preparing for the inevitability at this point of a trial.

BOLDUAN: Zach Cohen, great to see you. Thank you. Sara?

SIDNER: With the House paralyzed while they battle over who might be speaker, what does the new era mean for President Biden's agenda? Will he be able to work with the new Republican leadership, whoever that may be, to get things done for the American people? We'll have more on that ahead.

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