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Plea Deal Talks in Georgia Case; Trump Hit With Gag Order in New York Court Case; Interview With Rep. Matt Cartwright (D-PA); House Speaker Fight. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:01]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Breaking news: One of the major candidates to be speaker of the House just made it official. Game on in Washington.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: While Donald Trump sits in a courtroom in New York, prosecutors are making moves in Georgia. The new reporting on plea deals being floated to several of the people charged alongside Donald Trump. And Rudy Giuliani has just been dropped by another attorney.

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: And any moment now, a man arrested in the 1996 killing of Tupac Shakur will face a judge for the first time. We will take you to the courtroom.

I'm Sara Sidner, with Kate Bolduan and John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: All right, the breaking news: Jim Jordan is in. The Republican chair of the House Judiciary Committee just made it official. He is running to be the next speaker of the House, this after, as "The Wall Street Journal" puts it, Republicans cut off their own heads, ousting Speaker Kevin McCarthy, the first time a speaker has been voted out ever.

So, at this moment, the phones are ringing, the whisperers are whispering, and the race very much on.

Let's get right to CNN's Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill.

Jordan announced like 20 minutes ago; 10 minutes ago, he picked up a key endorsement. Give us the latest.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, right now, what we are learning is the Jim Jordan is officially in.

And, obviously, one of the key questions is, how quickly can he pick up support? Already, some conservatives, according to our colleague Annie Grayer, are already jumping in to get behind him, including Thomas Massie, as well as Jim Banks. So those are two members already out for Jim Jordan. But this becomes a game about locking down votes and locking them down

quickly. Obviously, there is still time to have these conversations, to have these negotiations, given the fact that the House is no longer here in Washington, and instead will return next week to pick up the speaker's race.

But one thing to keep in mind here is that Jim Jordan is someone who a lot of conservative hard-liners have said that they might be able to get behind. But Steve Scalise is another member that some hard-liners have said that they could support.

Here's Tim Burchett earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): He's a great leader. He's a proven leader. And I believe folks would rally around him. And -- but, as I told him, at this time, I am not going to commit to you. I want to hear what other people have to say.

It's just -- there might be some dark horse that gets in it that shows that we -- maybe that's the direction we need to know. But Steve would be an excellent choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And, John, it's still obviously very early in this process. But people are already making calls, already trying to lock down that support.

One thing to keep in mind here is, Scalise's team, they have run for leadership before. They have gotten their boss into leadership before. And, obviously, that experience, that dynamic is an important thing to keep an eye on.

One other person who is weighing whether or not to get into this race is Representative Kevin Hern. He's the leader of the conservative Republican Study Committee. A source familiar told me this morning that he's still gauging support, had conversations with a couple dozen members over the last several hours and last night.

But, obviously, the question just becomes, if this field gets too, too crowded, what is the lane for any one of these members, John?

BERMAN: And, again, and all these candidates that we have up on the screen now, none of them, you would think, are a perfect fit for some of the more moderate members of this party, some of whom were the most outraged that McCarthy was pushed out.

Lauren Fox, keep up the good work. We will hear from you soon, I am sure, with all these developments -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

The White House is no doubt watching this closely. Sources close to the president are telling CNN that Biden is hoping to project a sense of calm as the chaos plays out on Capitol Hill. And, considering the chaos, it's not hard to look calm in comparison to that.

[11:05:02]

This morning, the White House is also offering up some advice, if you will, to House Republicans: Act quickly.

CNN's Arlette Saenz at the White House for us.

Arlette, what are you hearing from there this morning?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, President Biden is facing the reality that, soon, he will be working with a new House speaker.

And that presents some challenges for the president going forward on some of the immediate priorities they are facing, especially when it comes to securing additional aid for Ukraine. Now, the White House has been very careful. They're not weighing in on the specifics of a speaker's race, but they are urging the House to act with -- in a speedy manner.

White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre yesterday said -- quote -- "Because the urgent challenges facing our nation will not wait, he hopes the House will quickly elect a speaker." She adds: "Once the House has met their responsibility to elect a speaker, he looks forward to working together with them and with the Senate to address the American people's priorities."

Now, for the president's part, he is focusing on the agenda items that are important to his White House. Today, that focus is on approve -- announcing additional student debt relief across the country.

But one thing that the White House is really grappling with in this moment is what will happen to Ukraine aid down the road. It's unclear who the next speaker, will be what strategy they will employ with this. But that is one of the priorities that the White House has been trying to push with Congress and with allies as they're trying to show that enduring support for Ukraine is there.

It's unclear whether that will actually get a vote up in the House.

BOLDUAN: Arlette Saenz.

Thank you so much, Arlette -- Sara.

SIDNER: With us now, Democratic Pennsylvania Congressman Matt Cartwright.

Thank you so much, sir, for taking time out to speak with us today.

REP. MATT CARTWRIGHT (D-PA): Good to be with you, Sara.

SIDNER: I want to get right to what we have just heard, an announcement by -- thank you -- announcement by Jim Jordan, who says he's in. He's running for the speakership.

And I'm curious what you think of this?

CARTWRIGHT: Well, first, let me say this. This is not a time of celebration in the people's house.

You didn't -- when you saw Steve Womack's gavel come down, and he announced that the chair was vacant, there was no hooting and hollering. There were no high-fives. We are not running victory laps on our side of the aisle.

It's a sad time, really. It's the first time in American history that the dysfunction has got to the point where a sitting speaker has been thrown out. And it's not a good thing. But let me also say this.

I see it also as an opportunity. Sometimes, out of very low moments, you can find a new gear, you might say. And what we're looking for is to put people over politics. And this is a chance to pick a speaker who can work on both sides of the aisle and stop throwing political bombs.

Both sides are guilty of that. But it's our priority to put people over politics.

SIDNER: Sir, I don't mean to interrupt, but I do want to ask you...

CARTWRIGHT: And this is an opportunity to find somebody who can do that.

Go ahead.

SIDNER: Yes.

I do want to ask, you talked about stop throwing bombs. I mean, Jim Jordan has come after Democrats and particularly the Biden administration with a lot of bombs. And I'm curious if he's someone you think that you can work with, that the Democrats can work with.

Or are you concerned that, now that McCarthy is out of office, that the Democrats did not help keep him there, that he's now out of office, that you're now going to be dealing with someone that's even more hard-line, that's even more difficult to make compromise with?

CARTWRIGHT: Sure.

I will say this. I agree with the sentiment that, whatever we do, we ought to do it quickly. It was a travesty that we spent an entire week at the beginning of this year picking a speaker, 15 votes, I think the most we have ever had gone through in American history. I'd hate to see that play out again.

I don't know who all is running, Sara. But, yes, I think Representative Jordan would be another polarizing figure, and I'm not sure he's the right one to pick if you want to put the people's benefit over politics. He's awfully good at politics.

SIDNER: I am curious about what you think in this scenario, where Democrats did show complete unity in voting against helping Speaker McCarthy keep his speakership.

But now the House is paralyzed. How do Democrats plan to get anything done at this point in time?

CARTWRIGHT: Well, look, my default, Sara, is to be bipartisan. I am a proud Democrat. And I believe in Democratic values and Democratic ideologies.

They're important to me. But I also understand that I work for everybody in Northeastern Pennsylvania in my district, Democrats and Republicans, and people know that I have placed a priority on working across the aisle.

[11:10:03]

In fact, since I have been elected, I have passed 15 substantive bills, all of which were done with Republican support. In fact, I think I have introduced more Republican-supported bills and any other Democrat in the last 10 years. I'm proud of that. And I think that's what we need more of, because there's a lot to do in this country.

We have to shore up the economy. We have to figure out comprehensive immigration reform while fixing the border. We have to figure out what to do with Ukraine, and make sure that Russia doesn't roll over them and then start looking at Poland or other NATO countries.

We have a lot to do. And the best way to do it is to work together. The American people want that. And I hope that the Republican Conference comes up with a candidate that is not afraid to reach across the aisle.

SIDNER: If they don't, if it is someone like Jim Jordan, who you said is divisive, what are you going to do? Are you going to go ahead and try to work with that person?

Or, if they are a hard-liner, are you going to say, forget it, we will just be fighting?

CARTWRIGHT: Look, again, I -- my default is to try to be bipartisan and to look for ways we can make peace and work together.

But people who know me know that I'm not afraid of a fight and I'm not one to back down from a fight. But let's not -- we're not there yet, Sara, and let's hope for the best. I see this as an opportunity for us to work together.

When Kevin McCarthy got the 45-day continuing resolution, so we didn't shut down the government, it was Democrats that helped him do it. And I hope the Republican Conference learns from that. We are ready, willing and able to work across the aisle to achieve the common good for the American people.

SIDNER: Right now, there's no speaker. There's no business that can be taken care of and done in Congress. How do you explain that to the American people?

CARTWRIGHT: Right.

This is a time when politics is triumphing over the people. That's what we're about, putting people over politics. And it's a wakeup call to everybody on Capitol Hill and everybody who watches Capitol Hill that we have got to stop this nonsense. We have to pick somebody for speaker who can work with both sides and will put the best interests of the American people first, not politics.

SIDNER: Congressman Matt Cartwright, your words are important. Thank you so much, sir, for joining us this morning.

CARTWRIGHT: My pleasure.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: All right, and stand by for the latest vote count on those who are trying to become the next speaker.

Donald Trump is in a New York courtroom at this moment with a gag order from the judge looming over him. What impact has it had on the court so far this morning?

And new reporting about plea deals being discussed between the DA in Fulton County, Georgia, and defendants in the election subversion case there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:17:41]

SIDNER: Right now, Donald Trump is back inside court as a civil trial where he has been already found liable for fraud resumes in New York.

But, this morning, he entered with a tamer tone to his repeated line of attacks. This is after the judge issued a brand-new gag order. In it, it forbids Trump from posting, e-mailing or speaking publicly about any members of the court's staff.

CNN Brynn Gingras is live outside the courthouse.

Brynn, so, Donald Trump was still talking as he walked into court today. What did he say? Did it cross any of those lines?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He didn't, but he did still express frustration, Sara.

He expressed frustration once again, which he has done multiple times before this morning, about not having a jury trial in this civil trial. Now, it's an important fact to note here that the state law that Trump was sued, Trump, his adult sons and Trump Org, were sued on by the New York state attorney general, it doesn't allow for a jury trial.

So that is why a judge, the judge in this case, is going to be issuing the final punishment or the penalties or whatever, basically, the outcome of this case, right? So it's an important note to that, even though he continues to express frustration outside the courtroom, and even inside the courtroom, as the court proceedings are continuing to go on and we're getting updates from our courtroom reporters.

And this might be more doubled-down frustration from Trump after that gag order that you just mentioned about, Sara. And this gag order was issued yesterday by the judge after a TRUTH Social post that Trump put on his TRUTH Social.

It shows a picture of the judge's clerk with Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. And, in that post, the former president saying that she is Schumer's girlfriend, without any evidence to support that claim. Well, this really did not please the judge.

And, remember, this is a judge who has taken a lot of attacks from the former president. But this was just a bridge too far, issuing this gag order, saying that if there is any personal attacks on any member of his staff, whether it be in e-mail or phone calls or in interviews, that there is going to be repercussions.

It's unclear what those sanctions are going to be, but, certainly, this is not something that the former president wants to start day three of his civil trial on. So that may be also what is frustrating him.

Also, something that he's talked about, Sara, is the fact that he does want to testify in this trial, not a huge surprise. We do expect him to testify. He's on the witness list for both the state's attorney's office and also -- for the A.G.'s office and the defense.

[11:20:12]

But the question is when. Who will call him to the stand? It may be sooner than we think -- Sara.

SIDNER: Brynn Gingras, thank you for bringing all those details together for us -- John.

BERMAN: All right, in Georgia, word of plea deal discussions in the election subversion case against Trump and 18 others there.

Sources say that Fulton County DA Fani Willis is hoping to get several of Trump's co-defendants to cooperate with her. The first trial in this case starts less than three weeks from now.

Let's get right to CNN senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

Paula, tell us about these discussions.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, as you know, 19 defendants were charged in this sprawling RICO case.

And it was always expected that the district attorney would likely offer some of them plea deals to try to whittle down the pool here. Our colleagues Sara Murray and Zach Cohen have learned that now several defendants actually have been approached about possible plea deals, including former Trump campaign staffer Mike Roman. But, as of now, only one person, Scott Hall, who's a bail bondsman,

has actually accepted this offer. Now, prosecutors also signaled last week that ahead of that trial at the end of this month, they will likely offer plea deals to Kenneth Chesebro and Sidney Powell.

Now, they are the two defendants who are expected to go to trial at the end of the month in the first trial in this case, though it's unclear if they will accept that offer.

But, John, one person who is not getting a plea offer right now is Rudy Giuliani. His lawyer tells me that they have not been approached about any such deal. And, this morning, the second of his two Georgia- based lawyers withdrew from the case. And Giuliani needed local Georgia counsel to get through the initial stage here.

But this move, losing both of his Georgia lawyers, comes as he owes millions of dollars in legal fees to other attorneys who have represented him in other matters. And, as of now, John, it's just unclear how exactly he's going to afford to put on a defense in this Georgia case.

BERMAN: Got lawyers leaving him in Georgia, lawyers suing him here in New York.

REID: Yes.

BERMAN: A strange situation for the former mayor.

All right, Paula Reid, thank you for being with us. Appreciate it -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Joining us right now, Nick Akerman, a former assistant special Watergate prosecutor and a former assistant U.S. attorney.

It's good to see you, Nick.

Let's start with where John and Paula just left off...

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: Sure.

BOLDUAN: ... these plea deal offers.

First and foremost, how important are plea deals when you're talking especially about large racketeering cases that you're looking at here?

AKERMAN: They're pretty important.

I mean, so, the DA here, in her prior case against the New York City -- the Atlanta school system, essentially entered into a lot of these deals. They had a lot of -- 35 people that were indicted initially, and it whittled down to somewhere around 10 or 11 that went to trial.

So it's important to kind of getting the case down, getting people to cooperate and testify. And I think at least the two people that have asked for speedy trials that are starting their trial on October 23, Chesebro and Powell, are actually probably in the best position now to get the best possible deal they could, short of being convicted.

BOLDUAN: I was going to say, why is that? Because my question was going to be, who gets the better deal, the people who decide to cooperate earlier or the people who will hold out longer?

AKERMAN: The people who decide to cooperate earlier. Plus, they also have a little leverage, in the sense that, if they do cooperate, they do make a deal, that means that the DA does not have to try this case for a number of weeks or months.

BOLDUAN: Right.

AKERMAN: And it makes it a lot easier for them. So they have -- they're in a position of strength, but so isn't -- the DA's office.

BOLDUAN: So interesting.

If you're representing any of the people charged not named Trump, like, what is the consideration here...

(CROSSTALK)

AKERMAN: The consideration is to try and get the least amount of time possible, looking at the evidence against the person.

If they're convicted, all bets are off the table. There's no cooperation. There's no credit for really accepting responsibility. So you really are looking at the evidence and balancing the evidence against what you might be able to get for a deal.

And, like I say, there are two defendants now who at least have some leverage, in the sense that, if they do accept the deal, they're actually giving the DA a big benefit of not having to try their cases.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about Donald Trump and what -- Brynn Gingras was talking about this.

Donald Trump, going in -- out -- standing outside of the courtroom, but as he's been going in, he continues to complain about not having a jury in this trial. When he was in the courtroom just now, I'm hearing reports from inside that he was kind of throwing up his arms and crossing his arms when the judge reminded them that there was no jury in this trial.

But, as we're looking, and the guidance is that they -- neither the defense nor the prosecution requested a jury. In addition, the law dictates that this is a case where a judge alone would decide the outcome.

[11:25:02]

So what do you make of this?

AKERMAN: This is all theatrics on behalf of Donald Trump.

I mean, he's making an issue out of something that is just not an issue. That's all I can say about it. It's really the bottom line.

BOLDUAN: Yes. It's that cut-and-dry to you?

AKERMAN: Right. That that's cut-and-dry.

BOLDUAN: You were telling me that you would put him on the stand quickly?

AKERMAN: Oh, if I were -- if I were the A.G., I would have put him on the stand as the first witness.

BOLDUAN: Why?

AKERMAN: Because he's there. You don't have to wait around. You don't have to tell him when he's going to be on the witness stand and let him prepare.

I would have popped him up on the stand immediately, which is what I usually do in civil cases like RICO, civil RICO cases, or cases that have some criminal overtone to them, because they could take him through every single item that's in that complaint, every single situation where he inflated values, where he cheated people, and go through the documents, and question him in detail on that.

Some of those things, he took the Fifth Amendment on initially, then he testified on.

BOLDUAN: It almost feels a little reverse order of what you would traditionally see. Like, in a criminal case against someone, you kind of bring them up almost last at the end.

(CROSSTALK)

AKERMAN: Well, you can't do that in the criminal case, because the prosecutor can't put the defendant on. He's got a Fifth Amendment privilege against testifying against himself.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

AKERMAN: So, why not take advantage of it in the civil case, where you do get that advantage of putting him on and taking him through that?

And it kind of undercuts what he's trying to do now, which is basically trying to get political mileage out of showing up in that courtroom, having press conferences out in the hallway, and basically making all kinds of false statements that he would have to answer to if he were on the witness stand, which would probably last for a good five or six days, at least.

BOLDUAN: Well, I mean, at least we know one thing. Now, with this gag order in place, the warning has been laid out, at least with regard to some statements against certain people, specifically court staff, from the judge.

Let's see what that does. AKERMAN: Right.

BOLDUAN: It's good to see you. Nick, thank you.

AKERMAN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Sara.

SIDNER: Right now, Congress is on the clock to find a new speaker, although they have taken some days off. Several names are already being floated.

Who has the best chance of getting elected and what should happen to those eight lawmakers who kicked out Kevin McCarthy? We will ask a member of Congress, a Republican member of Congress, at that.

And, soon, the man arrested in connection to the 1996 murder of Tupac Shakur set to appear in court for the first time as a suspect in that crime.

We will bring you that in just a moment ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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