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Rep. Steve Scalise Announces Run For House Speaker; Trump Attends Fraud Trial With Gag Order In Place; Trump Thows Arms Up In Air After Judge Reminds His Attorneys "There's No Jury In Here"; 75,000 Kaiser Permanente Health Care Workers On Strike. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: -- saying that there is overwhelming -- it is overwhelmingly in our interest to provide that funding for Ukraine.

So let's go back to Capitol Hill, where House Majority Leader Steve Scalise officially entered the speaker's race.

Manu Raju joins us.

What are you hearing there, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he did announce that he plans to run here, but he will not be running this unopposed. In fact, he will have an opponent. Jim Jordan, the House Judiciary Committee chairman, running. Both at the moment running to become the next speaker of the House.

Now, Scalise is the current number two. And among the view of a lot of Republicans, potentially the heir apparent here to this seat. But that doesn't mean that he'll have the votes to necessarily become the next speaker of the House.

This is an effort -- the leadership races often happen behind the scenes. They're relationship driven. They have to talk to their colleagues. And they have to make sure that they can fulfill promises in order for some members to get their votes.

As we saw with Kevin McCarthy. He had to make a whole slew of promises in the January speaker's race in order to get some of the hardliners behind him in that race.

So some of those discussions are already taking place behind the scenes. In fact, Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan both met with the largest state delegation within the House GOP earlier today, the Texas delegation.

They made their pitch to discuss their policy priorities. And they also talked about how they wanted to book -- in their words unify the Republican conference.

That is a message that both Jordan and Scalise are saying in letters that they have sent to their conference. They want to provide some unity and try to figure out a way forward.

Because this is a badly divided House GOP. This is -- we saw it all play out yesterday on the House floor. He's hearing a lot of Republicans furious at those eight members, led by Matt Gaetz, who pushed for Kevin McCarthy's ouster. First time we've ever seen that in American history.

But a lot of members simply aren't going to just get behind one candidate, particularly one candidate who may be embraced by those holdouts on the far right. We'll see how this ultimately plays out.

But one key question, too, there's a big contingent of more moderate members who may be a little nervous about the more conservative politics of the -- of Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan. So we'll see how the moderate members react to this and if any other candidates also jump in.

Kevin Hern, who's actually the chairman of the largest conservative group within the House GOP, he told me earlier that he is still considering a run for speaker as well.

So there are still lots of steps here in the process. First, the House GOP needs to nominate someone, needs to get a majority of the House GOP vote.

And then a vote in the full House next week. And that is going to be the real challenge, 218 votes. More than four Republicans can scuttle a Republican speaker candidate, as we saw with Kevin McCarthy. The question now is, will it happen again?

BROWN: Yes, we saw those 15 rounds, right, with Kevin McCarthy. As you say, lots of hurdles ahead.

But right now, we have Reps. Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan throwing their hats in the ring in the run for House speaker.

Thanks, Manu.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:37:37]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: So for the third straight day, former President Donald Trump was in court attending his civil fraud trial. And for the third straight day, he railed against the judge and prosecution when entering and exiting the courtroom.

Even though there is a new gag order in place issued after Trump went after a court clerk on social media yesterday.

Now, inside the courtroom, his company's financials were under the microscope as his former accountant was cross-examined.

Now, notably, Trump won't be back after a lunch break. He's set to fly to Florida.

CNN's Kara Scannell was inside the courtroom for this morning's testimony.

Kara, walk us through what you heard.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So Trump's lawyers were on the offensive, trying to land some blows at the credibility of the government's first witness, Donald Bender, Trump's long-time accountant.

And so when Bender was on the stand -- you know, the issue in this case is the financial statements. He compiled them.

So Trump's attorneys were hitting at him, saying, did he follow accounting guidance and did he ever notice any obviously inappropriate values for financial statements over this decade period of time? And Bender testified nothing jumped out.

They were asking him repeatedly questions going through these financial statements year by year, property by property. That got the judge really frustrated. It became testy in there.

The judge had warned them to move on, that they could just do this in a summary type of question. Trump's lawyers pushed back. They started cross again.

The judge got frustrated. He slammed his hands on the bench and he said, "This is ridiculous. I've made an order." So things got a little heated in there today.

Now, the cross-examination will continue after the lunch break, but Trump won't be there, as you said, because he's left court.

But his attorneys will continue to cross-examine Bender. And one of the lawyers said that this could continue for the rest of today -- Boris?

SANCHEZ: And, Kara, there was also a moment when Trump himself was visibly frustrated. Tell us about that.

SCANNELL: Yes, so the judge had also been instructing Trump's lawyers on their cross of Bender earlier in the day. And he said to them, "You know, this is not a jury trial."

Because there are certain things that is more allowed when there's a jury there to try to undercut the credibility.

But the judge is a skilled lawyer. He can see what they're doing. So he was trying to get them to move things along.

And when he said, "This isn't a jury trial," Trump threw his hands up. He was visibly annoyed. He was looking at his lawyers as though they should do something about it. And he then crossed his arms and he was sitting there looking very frustrated by this.

[13:40:08]

This has been one of the issues that he has raised repeatedly, that it's not a jury trial.

But even his attorneys have acknowledged that it couldn't be a jury trial. Because the way that this law -- the way that this case was brought under the law that it was brought requires a judge to make the ultimate determination.

Because it has to do with money damages and it has to do with business restrictions, potentially, if Trump is found liable on this.

But it's been a very animated day. It's been a lot of reaction. You know, the judge trying to get a handle on this, trying to move the case along.

Because we're still on the first witness, now in the third day, and there's still 28 -- or 27 of them left to go -- Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yes, we'll see if things remain as animated without the former president in the courtroom.

Kara Scannell, outside the Manhattan courthouse, thanks so much.

Pam?

BROWN: All right, thanks, Boris.

Let's bring in former deputy assistant attorney general, Harry Litman.

So, Harry, Trump attacked the judge again today while entering and exiting court. Tell us what that means. Do you think that violates the gag order put in place by this judge or does it not go far enough to actually violate it?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY & FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, I don't think it does because the gag order itself is extraordinarily narrow. It said don't attack court staff. You could say the judge is a member of court staff, but you could say that he's not.

On the other hand, it's skating on extraordinarily thin ice. And this judge has shown that he will be unafraid to impose a broader gag order and to enforce it with very punitive action should Trump continue to avoid it.

So it's significant that just -- we've crossed that line, someone has imposed an order on Trump, who, by the way, complied immediately, took down the offending message. So it's something to monitor.

But you're right, he came out and he's still insulting the A.G., the judge, et cetera. And I don't think he'll stop until and unless he's forced.

BROWN: Quickly, just to follow up on that, because as you said he's skating on extraordinarily thin ice here. If he does violate the gag order, what penalty could there be against him?

LITMAN: The ultimate one? Thirty days in jail under New York law. Now, there's also the possibility of jail in the D.C. case, which the stakes are higher.

And it can seem sometimes that Trump is actually flirting with it on purpose for political reasons. Other times, it seems -- for instance, yesterday he did immediately comply. But we'll see.

Leaving the courtroom, he made it clear he's not going to be shutting up completely anytime soon.

BROWN: And as you said, this gag order is pretty narrow. So we'll see if it expands.

In the meantime as Kara laid out, Trump has been harping on the fact that this is not a jury trial. Help us better understand why that is.

LITMAN: Sure. Under the very broad law here in New York, because the ultimate remedy is not damages per se, but giving up the ill-gotten gains, that means usually it goes to a judge.

It could have -- there could have been and the judge made a point of saying at the beginning, there could have been a movement to try to make it a jury trial and the Trump team didn't do it.

So on the one hand, the law would have made it difficult. But on the other, they didn't make the effort. And obviously, Trump wishes they were in front of a jury.

BROWN: Meantime, Trump's former accountant took the stand again. He already testified that his duty was to compile the information he was given by the Trump Org. And that the onus was on the Trump Org to make sure that information was accurate.

How do you view this testimony? Do you view it as critical?

LITMAN: It's one of a piece. So look, this trial is at once very complicated and very simple.

The complicated part is these clauses and contracts and generally accepted accounting principles. The simple part to which the A.G. always returns is four words. "It's the lie, stupid."

So in a sense, what the Justice Engoron will say and already has ruled is all this stuff about, did the accountant do his job perfectly, really is beside the point.

Trump told whoppers. They show fraud. And they may show intent on the remaining issues.

This is going to be a long forensic slog on the one hand. On the other, the A.G. will always bring it back to what's really the offending conduct, which is, of course, you can lie about valuations.

And of course, based on the evidence, it appears Trump did that not just once but as a sort of ongoing M.O. of his business.

BROWN: And he says he'll take the stand. Could that work for him or against him? Quickly.

LITMAN: Yes, well, so quickly, he can still take the Fifth for things. He's taken the Fifth before. In general, it's a disastrous idea. But he's already waived a little because of the deposition.

[13:45:03]

It's not good, but he may have to do it, at least somewhat.

BROWN: All right. Harry Litman, thanks for offering your expertise on this. Appreciate it.

LITMAN: Thank you.

BROWN: And still ahead, a New Jersey man caught on camera deliberately driving his car into a police station. What's even wilder, the song that was blasting from his stereo. Details next on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

(CHANTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

(CHANTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we don't get it --

[13:49:55]

SANCHEZ: Happening right now, the largest health care strike in American history is under way. More than 75,000 Kaiser Permanente employees are on the picket lines, including nursing staff, receptionists, pharmacists and more. Roughly about 40 percent of Kaiser's workforce in all.

Their top concerns are better pay and fixing chronic short-staffing that they say means worse care for patients.

Right now, most doctors and registered nurses are not on strike, but nevertheless, many patients are still going to feel the effects of this.

CNN's Natasha Chen is live for us in Los Angeles.

So, Natasha, Kaiser says it continues to negotiate with unions. Where do things stand right now?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Boris, they were negotiating all throughout the night, overnight, into this morning, hoping they could avoid the strike. But it did start at 6:00 a.m.

Hundreds of people here behind us at this Los Angeles Kaiser location. As you mentioned, a lot of them are technicians, some of them nurses.

They're talking to me a lot about this frustration with understaffing, severe understaffing, to the point where people are not able to take their breaks. This is affecting patients.

So they're out here walking for the patients' care, they said.

(CHEERING)

CHEN: Here's one person, who is on the bargaining team, who explained to us why some nurses are even sleeping in their cars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROCLO CHACON, STRIKING KAISER PERMANENTE WORKER: There are nurses that are sleeping in the cars because of two reasons. One, they can't afford possibly moving here, so they have to be here two or three hours.

And then because of short-staff, they're working 14, 15 hours so they're tired. The best choice is to be Monday through Friday in their cars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: And the Kaiser health system did put out a statement this morning, saying they felt they had come to an agreement with the union on several key points late last night.

But that person you just heard from, she's on the bargaining team and says it's still not enough.

This strike, in particular, lasts through the end of this week. They are expected to go back to work on Saturday morning.

If there's still no agreement by this time, they plan to strike for a longer number of days in November.

And because of the industry that they're in, they actually give a few days' warning ahead of time so that Kaiser can make arrangements so patients don't feel too much effect from having all of these people walk out -- Boris?

SANCHEZ: Quite a loud crowd behind you.

Natasha Chen, thanks so much for the update.

We should point out Kaiser Permanente provides health care for some 13 million people.

Let's get some more perspective with CNN medical correspondent, Meg Tirrell.

Meg, how are patients going to be feeling this strike?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, just looking at the kinds of folks on the picket lines, it doesn't include doctors or many nurses, but it does include some nurses.

The folks that are picketing and who have walked out, who are on the strike lines right now, really are sort of crucial to keeping health care running.

So experts tell us this could really be disruptive. I mean, you're talking about people like pharmacists, optometrists, nurses, imaging technicians, Emergency Department technicians, people who answer the phones, people who clean the rooms, people who draw blood.

I mean, these are a lot of different folks in a lot of different areas.

So Kaiser tells us it does have contingency plans in place. It's keeping emergency centers and Emergency Departments open.

This is 40 percent of the workforce, just about, and they are potentially bringing in other staffing if they need to in order to be able to keep things running.

But they say they may need to schedule some non-urgent appointments. They're urging folks to use the mail order pharmacy, for example. They may have to recommend folks go to other places that are not at Kaiser in order to fill prescriptions, potentially.

So, we don't expect there to be drastic impacts but it could be really disruptive -- Boris?

SANCHEZ: Meg Tirrell, thank you so much for that.

Pam?

BROWN: All right, thanks, Boris.

Now to some of the headlines we're following at this hour.

NFL Hall of Fame Quarterback Brett Favre now has a court date. He's set to be questioned under oath on October 26th as part of Mississippi's largest public corruption case in which tens of millions of dollars earmarked for needy families were diverted to the rich and powerful.

Favre, who has not officially been charged criminally in this case, we should note, is more than one of the 3,000 people and entities named in the civil suit.

Take a look at this video. Wow. The moment an SUV comes crashing into a New Jersey police station. The driver identified as John Hargreaves, jumping out with his hands up.

Police say the Guns N' Roses' song, "Welcome to the Jungle," was blaring on his car stereo.

Hargreaves was immediately taken into custody. And he faces a first- degree domestic terrorism charge, along with aggravated assault and harassment. And he remains behind bars.

And smoke from Canadian wildfires has been seen across the state of Florida. It's being seen as far south as downtown Miami.

Florida's Department of Health is advising people sensitive to smoke, especially those with respiratory and heart issues, to limit outdoor activities. Officials say there are nearly 800 active fires burning in Canada right now.

[13:55:12]

Well, it is game-on in Washington. Multiple big names weighing a run at becoming the next speaker of the House. We are live on the Hill with the latest, up next.

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