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House GOP Divided Over Motion Used By Gaetz To Oust McCarthy; Rep. Dan Meuser (R-PA) Discusses About The Issue of Expelling Matt Gaetz; NY AG Responds To Trump Comments: "I Will Not be Bullied"; Illinois Gov, Chicago Mayor Confront WH, Demand Action. Aired 3:00- 3:30 ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:59:53]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Leaving court and unleashing new insults. Former President Trump is still slamming the judge overseeing his civil fraud trial in New York and the state's attorney general. This, as he heads back home to Florida.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And sending seized weapons into a war zone. CNN has exclusive reporting on where the U.S. will transfer millions of Iranian ammunition and weapons and why the Biden administration spent months weighing whether it was even legal. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Right now, Republican candidates seeking to be the next House Speaker are facing a divided conference. More moderate Republican members are now calling for a change to the powerful tool that Matt Gaetz used to oust Kevin McCarthy. Currently, the rule allows for a single Republican member to offer up a resolution that would remove the speaker. Now a growing chorus of moderates say they don't want that chaos seen on the House floor yesterday to happen again.

Let's take you now live to Capitol Hill with CNN's Manu Raju.

And Manu, so far two Republicans have officially thrown their names up for consideration, Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan. What are they saying about some of the most divisive issues that they'll need to deal with almost right away if they become Speaker?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now they're trying to say that they can unify this badly divided Republican conference after that bitter fight that we saw spill out into public over the last several days culminating in that historic vote yesterday. An unprecedented removal of a House Speaker by his own colleagues after Kevin McCarthy lost his job after seeing eight Republicans break ranks, vote with Democrats to push him out of office.

Now those members, Jim Jordan who chairs the House Judiciary Committee and also Kevin - and also Steve Scalise who's now the number two Republican in the conference contending that they can try to bridge the divide within the conference between one of the more moderate members, the McCarthy allies and some of those far-right members. But that is much easier said than done. Because you mentioned it, there are a whole wide range of issues that divide them.

One is how to deal with that so-called issue of a motion to vacate, pushing out a speaker. A single person can do it under the current rules as Matt Gaetz did. Those hardliners want to preserve that. More moderate members want that gone. Mitch McConnell lent his support, the Senate Republican leader, to the moderate GOP effort. We'll see where that ends up.

Those candidates are still not saying what they will do. And then there's policy issues like the issue of Ukraine. Such a central issue right now being pushed hard by Senate GOP leaders and by the White House. But something that has divided House Republicans.

Kevin McCarthy, when he was speaker, put the brakes on more Ukraine aid. But what will the next House Speaker do? Such a key question. I put that to Jim Jordan earlier today. And he made clear that he is not in favor of a new aid package for Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: For Ukraine, are you willing to move forward with an aid package for Ukraine if you're speaker?

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I'm against that. The most pressing issue on Americans' minds is not Ukraine. It is the border situation and it is crime on the streets.

REP. KEVIN HERN (R-OK): First, we have to have some information. It doesn't do any good to keep putting it on the floor without giving some conversation about why we're doing it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that last comment was from Kevin Hern. He's a member - the chairman of the Republican Study Committee, which is the largest conservative group in the House GOP. He is flirting with a possible bid for speaker as well. Also taking a more measured approach on how he would deal with Ukraine. Saying he needs to review it first before going ahead.

But Jordan's comments there, undoubtedly, already I'm hearing concerns in the hallways from members, people who support Ukraine aid, worried that if he becomes speaker, then perhaps that could cut off all the billions of dollars that are going to Ukraine. Jordan didn't go as far as saying he would never allow any dollar to go to Ukraine. But his comments there certainly are a warning sign about how this issue could be dealt with under Jordan's speakership.

But Boris, there's a long way to go before any of these men could be elected speaker at the moment. They have to get nominated by their conference next week on a majority vote. Then, a majority of the full House, 218 members, need to vote to elect the Speaker.

Meaning, any five Republicans break ranks, that could be enough to undercut their bid on the House floor, as we saw with Kevin McCarthy back in January. So just a lot of questions in this leadership vacuum as Republicans grapple about what's next, Boris?

SANCHEZ: And one key question over the fallout from what we saw yesterday, and that's what happens to Congressman Matt Gaetz, who led the effort to oust McCarthy. There's still lingering animosity, and you're learning there are some members that want him expelled.

RAJU: Again, major frustration, particularly among his McCarthy allies. They view what Matt Gaetz was doing was completely out of bounds. They say that he was doing it for a personal vendetta, going after Kevin McCarthy to boost his own personal profile, raise his fundraising number, something that Matt Gaetz himself has denied. But there are still support to boot him from the Republican conference altogether.

[15:05:01]

I just talked to House Republican freshman Mike Lawler, who the - represents the swing New York district. He told me he does support kicking out Matt Gaetz from the conference. That would require support within the conference, about two-thirds majority.

So we'll see if it ever gets to that. But that just shows you just the bad blood that still exists over Matt Gaetz and those seven other Republicans who voted to kick out Kevin McCarthy. The question is, can they put the pieces back together, get their agenda going forward, name a new leader, all are still major questions over this conference at this key time, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes, and looming on the horizon, a potential government shutdown in some 40-odd days.

Manu Raju, live for us on Capitol Hill. Thanks so much, Manu. Pam?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: All right. I want to talk more about this with Republican congressman, Dan Meuser, of Pennsylvania.

Thanks for coming on, Congressman.

You just heard Manu lay it out right there that the New York rep - GOP rep, Mike Lawler, of New York told Manu Raju that he supports kicking out Matt Gaetz out of the conference. And I'm wondering what you think about that. Do you support that as well? Do you think that there could be enough votes for that to actually happen?

REP. DAN MEUSER (R-PA): Well, the only way you really kick somebody out is if they're doing actions that are unbecoming of a member of Congress. There are ethics issues as well that Matt Gaetz is facing, but I don't think any of that grounds for terminating his tenure here. His district will deal with that. That's who votes for people. That's who sends them here.

So I don't think that's the case. I do think he was dead wrong. I do think they weaponized - I do believe they weaponized the use of the vacate the chair because vacate the chair has been in existence for a long time. Nancy Pelosi is the one that removed it.

So, I - all that being said, we have far more important things to worry about than the future of Matt Gaetz.

BROWN: Congressman Jim Jordan and Steve Scalise, they have officially thrown their hats in the ring in this race for speaker. Will you support either of them?

MEUSER: Actually, they're my top two who I'd like to see run and perhaps be speaker. Both Jim Jordan and Steve Scalise are just high - very high quality individuals. I know them extremely well. They have great moral fortitude. They are talented, they're dedicated, they're patriots, they're conservatives. So yes, they both do - they know what they're doing. They both would be excellent.

BROWN: So who would you vote? If you had to vote today, who would it be between the two?

MEUSER: I'm not sure yet, but we will hear what they have to say. I'm also interested in their priorities that matters to me. We have to get beyond some of the little things, the symbolic gestures that seem to be what some members like to engage in. We really need to dig into our budget. We need a strong conservative budget that is not just conservative in the interest of the American people. We've got to bring some fiscal sanity.

Frankly, we got to deal with the border and I believe actually we need to bring impeachment proceedings on Secretary Mayorkas, not for - not to weaponize impeachment, which I can't stand, but it's because he is derelict in his duties of enforcing the law - our immigration laws and it doesn't seem to be any correction in the near future.

We have to build our brand so as the American people think - believe that we are on their side, middle income, low income, high income. And in so doing, it should allow us to win the White House, which is key to the future of America.

BROWN: And of course, as you know, the administration says, look, the ball is in Congress' court as it pertains to the border and figuring out a comprehensive solution to what's going on there. But I do want to ask you, Jim Jordan says he is opposed to more aid for Ukraine. What do you think about that? Do you agree with him? What is the fate of Ukraine funding in your view?

MEUSER: Well, I don't entirely agree with him, no. And that's the great thing about Jim Jordan and Steve Scalise. These are discussions we will have. What I do agree is that United States' taxpayers have delivered over $110 billion to the Ukraine effort, which I support. However, the - our EU partners and the UK on similar GDPs, even up ratios are about 60 percent of where we are. So they need to fund at levels equivalent to us. So the American taxpayer isn't the ones on the hook here and we need a much better level of accountability, transparency and understanding where every dime of the taxpayer's money is going and we also need a plan.

Whether we had that within a classified setting or what, we need to have a better understanding of where we're going with Ukraine. The last thing we should be doing is giving Putin any feeling that US is in any way departing or abandoning or weakening our support for the sovereignty of Ukraine.

[15:10:09]

BROWN: McCarthy, as you well know, made so many concessions to the farthest right flank of the conference in order to gain the speakership. And I'm wondering for the next one, will the new speaker have to go even further? And what do you think about the one person threshold for the motion to vacate that McCarthy had agreed to? Do you think the next one - that should be on the table for the next one?

MEUSER: Well, as I stated earlier, that's actually been on the books for years. Nancy Pelosi removed the one person could stand and do a vacate the chair. But again, it should be discussed in conference. There should be a good reason for it. In this case with Kevin McCarthy, frankly, there wasn't a good reason. I think they had this vendetta from the very beginning, looking for an opportunity. Kevin McCarthy, the speaker, did a six week CR, so they thought it was a good time to gang up and - eight of them - that's not much of a gang, and remove him.

So it shouldn't be weaponized. It should be taken very seriously. And if we can remove it, fine, maybe have a majority to allow a vacate the chair, but it shouldn't be weaponized. It's existed before. If it's used properly, it's a tool that we shouldn't have to worry about.

BROWN: All right. Congressman Meuser, thanks for coming on and providing your perspective on this unfolding situation in the race for speaker, we appreciate it.

MEUSER: My pleasure.

BROWN: Boris?

MEUSER: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Right now, Donald Trump is on his way back to Florida after spending three days in a New York courtroom for his civil fraud trial. He wrapped up that string of court appearances the same way he started, ranting against the judge and the state attorney general just a few yards from where he faced them. Now, the attorney general has responded. Letitia James saying she will not be bullied.

We're covering this at the courthouse and at Trump Tower with CNN's Brynn Gingras and Alayna Treene.

So Brynn, walk us through these latest comments from Letitia James.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, unlike the former president, we haven't heard from the New York attorney general since the very first day of this trial before court even started and this is really the first time. And she took her time to basically address all the times that we've heard from the former president. Let's listen more to what she had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LETITIA JAMES, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: Trump's comments were offensive. They were baseless. They were void of any facts and or any evidence. What they were, were comments that unfortunately fomented violence, comments that I would describe as race-baiting, and comments unfortunately that appeals to the bottom of our humanity.

This case was brought simply because it was a case where individuals have engaged in a pattern and practice of fraud. And I will not sit idly by and allow anyone to subvert the law. And lastly, I will not be bullied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: Yes, so those comments coming after the former president took to the mic for one of the last - or the last time before he headed to Mar-A-Lago, essentially saying the same things that he has been saying, taking verbal lashes out at James herself and even at the judge. This is even in despite of that gag order that was issued by the judge to not talk about anyone on his court staff after that picture was posted by the former president on Truth Social.

As far as what's going on inside the courtroom, well, I can tell you before the lunch - took a break - before we took a break for lunch, there was a lot of visible frustration happening with the cross- examination of the Trump's former accountant. It had frustration on the part of the judge, frustration on the part of the former president.

So there's a lot of fiery exchanges that were going on. Right now, they've actually switched the testimony. Now it is Cameron Harris, he is an audit partner and they're actually having some discussions about financials as they relate to Eric Trump, who is still inside the courtroom. So we'll continue to watch that for you.

But as of now, the former president no longer inside the courtroom day three of the civil trial.

SANCHEZ: Alayna, as Brynn pointed out, Trump is on his way back to Mar-A-Lago right now. And before leaving court, he told a mistruth, one of several we should point out, but he claimed that he was stuck at this trial. He's actually there on a purely voluntary basis. So the question is, why did he wind up going? Was this purely for publicity?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Oh, there are a couple of reasons, Boris. One of them is definitely for publicity. He knew that this was a great political opportunity for his campaign. I've spoken with his advisors over the past several days and weeks, and they've actually lamented the fact that his rallies aren't getting as much coverage as they wish, definitely not compared to 2016 when he was running and they welcomed the media attention.

Of course, when we saw them get to court earlier this week and throughout the past three days that he's been there, they knew where the camera angles were. [15:15:05]

They knew where the media would be and they seized the opportunity.

Another big reason, though, is that this is a trial that personally means a lot to Donald Trump. It's going after his business, his empire, something he ran on in 2016, in 2020 and now again on the campaign trail in 2024. And he wanted to be there for this. He wants to attend and to defend himself and I think that's part of the reason why you're continuing to hear him say that he wants to testify as a witness.

Now, of course, some skepticism of whether that will actually happen, but that's some of the motivations behind him wanting to show up in person, in court, over the past three days.

SANCHEZ: So, Alayna, let's zero in on this gag order that was issued after Trump went after a court clerk on social media. It didn't seem to slow down his rhetoric today. Is there anyone on his team concerned that this could get him in further trouble?

TREENE: I think there are definitely some concerns and mixed feelings within Donald Trump's camp. But look, they continually say it's his First Amendment right to talk about the case. I think, you know, it'll be very interesting to see how he moves forward because the gag order was specifically about the judge's staff, so he may avoid some of that. But I do think it's really interesting to note his rhetoric.

And we've had a preview over the past three days now what we're likely to see next year when Donald Trump is seesawing between the courtroom and the campaign trail. And even though his rhetoric doesn't face a lot of consequences for that on the trail, he is facing those consequences in the legal sense. And I do think you're going to continue to see this play out in other cases as well.

We know that there is a proposed gag order in the special counsel's case relating to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. And this is going to continue to be a key theme throughout many of his indictments and his legal battles. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Alayna Treene, Brynn Gingras, thank you both so much.

Still to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, the chaos here in Washington is having real implications on Ukraine's fight against Russia. Why a former defense secretary is saying this is good news for Vladimir Putin.

Plus, amid a surge of migrants, Democratic leaders in Illinois are now speaking out saying cities like Chicago are at their breaking point and need help from the White House.

And later, the man arrested for the murder of Tupac Shakur was in court this morning, but a critical hearing in that case is now delayed. We're going to tell you why in just a few minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:21:32]

SANCHEZ: Tensions are high right now between officials in the city of Chicago and the White House as the migrant surge continues to have a major impact far from the Southern border. The governor of Illinois and the mayor of Chicago, who are both Democrats, confronted top administration officials this week over their handling of the surge in migrants demanding action.

Gov. J. B. Pritzker is asking President Biden to name a czar manage the ongoing crisis. He worries that Chicago's about to reach a breaking point with winter approaching quickly. Currently, it's estimated there are more than 17,000 migrants in Chicago alone, and leaders fear that number could double in the coming months.

This comes as Republican governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, is ramping up the number of buses carrying migrants to that city.

We're joined now by Chicago City Alderman, Chris Taliaferro.

Sir, thanks so much for being with us. There are something like 2,300 migrants living on the floors of your police stations and at the airports awaiting shelters. You're a former policeman yourself, I'm wondering what your biggest concern about that is.

CHRIS TALIAFERRO, (D) CHICAGO CITY ALDERMAN: Well, especially as we enter into our winter months, those that are sleeping outside and in our police stations, I'm very concerned about their safety. The 2,300 that you mentioned, of that, the majority of them are still living outside and we are approaching our winter months where in Chicago, it gets quite cold. So we have to be concerned about their safety as well as the wellbeing of the migrants, which also includes young children and families.

SANCHEZ: So Alderman, there's been some tension, not only between your governor and Chicago's mayor and the White House, but also between local officials as well over what to do. I'm wondering what you would ask the White House or the Biden administration to do to intervene immediately to help alleviate the issue.

TALIAFERRO: Well, I think immediately and the President has done this, and that's authorizing temporary work permits. But I think there needs to be an even greater step at more security at our borders right now, because we're getting an influx of people from, particularly in Texas.

And so it is my belief that our president needs to step up and tighten border security until we can get this growing problem under hand.

SANCHEZ: On that question, what would you say to Texas governor, Greg Abbott? He argues that as bad as things are in Chicago right now, they're much worse at the Southern border.

TALIAFERRO: Well, I don't think, nothing that we say and nothing that we've been able to say over the last several months, and specifically over the last year Gov. Abbott has listened to. And so I think our biggest concern, knowing that Gov. Abbott will not listen to, not just a resident of the city of Chicago, but our elected officials as well, and the governor of this state.

We have to do what we can to provide for the well-being of the residents that are - I'm sorry, the migrants that are coming here. And so rather than argue with Gov. Abbott, we have to do whatever we can for the migrants that are arriving in the city of Chicago.

[15:25:02]

SANCHEZ: On the idea of listening to residents, you held a community meeting last night that became very contentious with people booing at local officials. They're concerned that they haven't been consulted with certain decisions, one specifically about using a park in your community as a place to house migrants. What is your message to those neighbors?

TALIAFERRO: I agree with our neighbors. They were quite outraged, as I was outraged, at the fact that we are shutting down a community resource, a park where our youth, our young adults, our seniors, enjoy programming and enjoy the use of that park. And so they were quite outraged, and I was outraged as well, simply over the fact that we're closing down this resource as well, much needed in an underserved community, a community that had been not invested in, in decades.

And I think that move required some bit of conversation with our community before the decision or the final decision was made.

SANCHEZ: Alderman Chris Taliaferro, we very much appreciate your perspective. Thanks for being with us.

TALIAFERRO: Thank you, Boris, I appreciate it.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still more to come this afternoon, including a huge question, how did our solar system form? A sample from an asteroid estimated to be four and a half billion years old may hold some clues. What NASA scientists are now revealing about it.

Plus, if you're still upset that Netflix started charging more last year, you better brace yourself, a new report says prices may continue going up.