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Russian Strike Kills 50 in Ukraine; Biden Administration Allows Limited Border Wall Construction; Interview With Fmr. Rep. Fred Upton (R-MI); Speaker Battle. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 05, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:02]

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: Pyromaniacs and saboteurs, those are a Republican's words about his colleagues responsible for removing the speaker of the House. Now there are furious phone calls being made in the fight to replace the speaker. What we're hearing from those jumping in the race now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: A reversal by President Biden, now supporting a new barrier on the Mexican border.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: A massive strike in Ukraine today. At least 50 people are dead, possibly the deadliest Russian strike in Ukraine in over a year.

I'm Kate Bolduan, with Sara Sidner and John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SIDNER: This morning, the House is essentially frozen, unable to legislate because it has no leader. Most health lawmakers, by the way, have gone home to their districts and won't be back until next week.

That means any sort of legislative work is stalled until House Republicans can come together and pick a new speaker to replace Kevin McCarthy. Ohio's Jim Jordan and Louisiana's Steve Scalise both say they want that job. Jordan says he's going to stay in D.C. over the weekend to make his pitch. He's already working the phones.

But the road to 218 votes is fraught. Listen to what one Republican congressman told John Berman just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DUSTY JOHNSON (R-SD): If we don't change the foundational problems within our conference, it's just going to be the same stupid clown car with a different driver.

Matt Gaetz and those hard-liners, they're a real problem. And I don't think the pyromaniacs are going to be satisfied after they have burn down one house. I think they're going to have an itching to go burned down a couple more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Perhaps the strongest words of discontent we have heard yet.

CNN's Lauren Fox joins us now from Capitol Hill.

Lauren, you spoke to Jim Jordan this morning. What is he saying? What's his plan?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Sara, look, emotions up here are running high for House Republicans. Nerves are raw.

And Jim Jordan is arguing he's the man who can unite the Republican Conference, arguing that those eight rebels are friends of his. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I disagree with what took place, but those guys are friends of mine. And I think that's the message I have been talking to my colleagues about is, who can who can bring the eight into the -- on part of the team? Who can unite our team? I think I can do that. If I didn't think I could do that, I wouldn't run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And there are a lot of McCarthy allies who are seeking retribution against some of those eight, including Matt Gaetz.

You have heard some Republicans call for him to be kicked out of the conference, that, of course, highly unlikely. You have also heard from a lot of Republicans that they believe that foundational rules of this Congress, especially the rule that allowed Matt Gaetz to bring forward this vote as one member to oust McCarthy, that those rules that need to change.

But I talked to one of the hard-liners, Representative Matt Rosendale, who voted against McCarthy. And I asked him directly, does he think that that rule should change, and would he vote for a speaker who did? He said that the rules package was passed in January, and it is the rules package that needs to stay intact -- Sara.

SIDNER: Wow.

All right, Lauren Fox, thank you so much for your reporting and getting that new information from Jim Jordan there. Thank you. Appreciate it.

John and Harry back with us.

BERMAN: Well, look, you just played that sound where Congressman Dusty Johnson called Matt Gaetz and his colleagues pyromaniacs and saboteurs.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: I was trying to remember the words there, pyromaniacs and saboteur. So let's talk more about Congressman Matt Gaetz with CNN senior data

reporter Harry Enten.

One the things that people say in shorthand is, they talk about this for right wing of the Republican Party that caused this. But, really, when you get down to it, how accurate is that?

[11:05:07]

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: I don't really think it's that accurate.

So let's take a look at Matt Gaetz, the instigator, the leader. So, his roll call votes, where does he rank among Republicans? In terms of conservative ideology, he's 79th. And he's conservative, don't get me wrong, but there are plenty of issues where he's not that conservative, medical marijuana, gay adoption.

But look at this. On the anti-establishment measure, not much of a surprise here, he ranks number one, I mean, this is really just bomb- throwers. That's what we're dealing with here, anti-establishment. That's what he is. He's not really far right.

BERMAN: That's -- it's an interesting and important distinction there.

In terms of what he has been able to get done, other than being the first person to basically get rid of the speaker of the House, what's the data show there?

ENTEN: You know, his critics will say he's not an effective legislator.

And this, to me, is something that rings true when we look at the legislative effectiveness ranking among the House GOP, according to the Center for Effective Lawmaking. Look at this, 115th House. He was 203 out of 245, 116th, 171 out of 205, 117th, 185 out of 222.

The fact is, Matt Gaetz does not really bring legislation to the floor and then is able to get passed. It's just not something he has been able to do historically.

BERMAN: So, if he's not getting legislation done, if he's not good at that, what is he good at?

ENTEN: He's good at generating press, which is something that his critics say that he does do.

Look at the Google News results. Matt Gaetz in Florida -- and he, of course, represents Florida's First District -- 106,000. Look at Neal Dunn. You probably have never heard of Neal Dunn unless you're down in the Florida Panhandle. He represents the Second Congressional District, another Republican. Look at that, just 347.

Look at how many more Google News mentions Matt Gaetz has than Neal Dunn. Matt Gaetz is good at generating press, not so good at passing legislation.

BERMAN: To be clear, this is 106,000.

ENTEN: Thousand.

BERMAN: And this is 347, period.

ENTEN: Period, period, 347, period.

BERMAN: That is a huge difference. And these are next-door neighbors in their congressional districts.

If you are a Republican who wants to see Matt Gaetz get voted out or maybe a Democrat who would like to see it, what are the actual chances when you look at his district?

ENTEN: Probably not. This is the 2022 vote share. Matt Gaetz got 70 percent in the primary. In the general election, he got 68 percent.

The fact is, Matt Gaetz is well-liked by his constituents. We will see if that continues in the future, but at least it's held in the past.

BERMAN: And, again, when you talk about getting things done now, now, for better or for worse, Matt Gaetz can point to...

ENTEN: Getting rid of Kevin McCarthy.

BERMAN: Of a speaker, yes.

All right, Harry Enten, thank you very much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: So, what now, you might ask.

Well, joining us -- joining us now is two former members of the Republican Conference, former Congressman, Republican Congressman from Michigan Fred Upton and former Congressman from Illinois Adam Kinzinger.

It's good to see you, gentlemen.

So, Congressman -- can I just call you Kinzinger and Upton? Like, this is going to be really hard throughout this interview.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

Adam...

FMR. REP. FRED UPTON (R-MI): Just don't use my initials on the air. (LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: I have never thought of that. Now I'm never going to unthink it. Thank you. Thank you, Congressman.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: Adam, let's talk first about the two leading candidates for speaker at this point.

When you the -- if the options are Jim Jordan and Steve Scalise, is one better than the other in your mind?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: By the way, hey, Fred.

And, yes, I think one is better. I think Steve Scalise is the better of the two. Who do I think is going to win? I don't think it's going to be Steve Scalise. I can get into that. But I certainly think he would be better at uniting the caucus.

Here's the thing. I won't be surprised to find out when this is all over that Jim Jordan was partially behind this whole ousting of McCarthy because he just so happens to be ready. He so happens to have the talking points that he can unite the party.

And, honestly, if the Republican Party does this, if they have make Jim Jordan the -- or anybody like him, all they're doing is allowing the legislative terrorists, those eight people, to win, because they will end up with a speaker who is just like them.

And this is where I think the reasonable caucus, which I don't know how many are left -- I used to think Nancy Mace was one of those, frankly -- where the reasonable caucus has to play with some of the same kind of tactics that the crazy caucus did in order to make sure it doesn't continue to go off the cliff.

BOLDUAN: Well, what do you mean by those tactics? What tactics are you talking about them?

KINZINGER: Well, so if you had eight people that said, in no way will we ever vote for a speaker that doesn't have a rule change -- or you look at even the beginning of the election, when it's like, we need all these things given to us, or we're never going to vote.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

KINZINGER: You have to have members of the House that do the same thing.

For instance, on Ukraine, have five or 10 people say, we will not vote for anybody, period, unless they promise simply to put Ukraine funding on the floor for an up-or-down vote. That's it. They don't even have to support it. They just have to put it on the floor for a vote.

(CROSSTALK) BOLDUAN: ... like, 200 members who want Ukraine aid.

I mean, this seems -- it's this problem that we're running into -- and, Fred -- this is so awkward for me -- to weigh in on, because you have eight, maybe plus some more, that have -- we will say the hard- line, these more extreme views, that led to this.

[11:10:10]

You have got to 200 others who will say -- could come together to try to push this forward. But how do you think this is going to end up? I mean, is it going -- in your mind, should it be Jim Jordan, or should it be Steve Scalise, if that ends up being the only options?

UPTON: Well, it's going to take a number of days, and it won't be just one or two.

The real race is to get a majority within the Republican Conference. So, you need 213 votes, because they count the delegates as part of that. Yes, I think both Steve, as well as Jordan are in the -- will be -- it's too early now. People aren't quite making commitments.

But I think they're both -- their base is like 90 already, maybe 100 votes. How do you get the last the number of votes? States often -- the delegations will sit together, the Michigan delegation, the Illinois delegation. I know the Texas delegation yesterday had both come and visit.

They want to vote as a bloc, because they want to be on the side of the winner. What's Trump going to do? He's very close to Jordan. We know that. Is he going to come out on Sunday or Monday and say, he's my choice?

So you can get to 213...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Do you think that could be the game-changer?

UPTON: Either one -- I think it could be. Either one could get to 213.

But then the trick is, how do you get 218 on the floor, particularly when you have some members already saying, I'm not voting for them no matter what? So it's going to go, I think, at least a couple rounds, maybe not 15. Maybe, at the end, both throw in the cards, and you end up with someone like McHenry, who may be the -- may be the person at the end of the stage willing to take over if, in fact, neither Steve nor Jordan can get there.

BOLDUAN: Adam, I want to ask him about -- you mentioned Ukraine, and I wanted to ask you about this, because Jim Jordan, he was on FOX this morning.

And he was asked about future aid for Ukraine, which now matters more than ever, because he is seen as one of the top contenders to be speaker of the House. And he would have a huge say in whether anything would be brought to the floor with regard to future aid to Ukraine.

Listen to what Jim Jordan said this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORDAN: I have been clear all along. Why should we be sending American tax dollars to Ukraine when we don't even know what the goal is? No one can tell me what the objective is.

Is it -- is it some kind of negotiated peace? Is it driving them out of the Eastern Ukraine? Is it driving them out of Crimea, which they have had for 10 years now, but they took during the Obama administration? What is the objective? And so until you can tell me the goal, I don't think we should continue to send money there, particularly when we have the problems we have on our border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Adam, I hear this more and more from Republicans, that there is a need to hear a clear objective, especially from President Biden, on Ukraine.

Is clarity lacking on what the purpose of aid Ukraine is from the United States? If no money is approved, what happens?

KINZINGER: Yes, I look, I think it is lacking.

I think the -- frankly, the president needs to be out there almost every day talking about why this is important. Foreign policy -- typically, Americans follow leaders when leaders are leading on foreign policy. He needs to be making this case.

Let me say to Jim Jordan, though, he says his opinion, and that's fine. He can have that opinion Ukraine. But that doesn't mean that, as speaker, he has the right then to make a unilateral decision to defund Ukraine. He is one vote. He should put that on the floor and vote his conscience and let everybody else vote theirs.

This is exactly what the Freedom club has been talking about: We want to have regular order. We want to bring bills to the floor.

So to then say that now, as speaker, you're not going to bring anything to the floor makes you no different than the exact people you're complaining about.

And let me say quickly to Upton -- we used to call them the Upton prophecies because he was very good at predicting the future. He's the first one that told me Donald Trump was going to run again, and I never believed him. So listen deeply to the Upton prophecies.

BOLDUAN: I'm terrified and intrigued.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: Go, Fred.

UPTON: Let me just say one thing, and I was on the Ukraine Caucus. I believe very strongly in the aid. Adam has made a very good point.

If Jordan is -- ended up being speaker, there's still a way to get the Ukraine aid. It's called the discharge petition, where you will get most of the Democrats, a good number of the Republicans. They will sign that. They will do -- they will be able to do an end-run on a Speaker Jordan and get the money and send it to the Senate, so that we can help protect democracy and fight Putin.

BOLDUAN: But that will do nothing to lead to unity and bipartisan -- I mean, that will lead to -- that leads to more chaos.

UPTON: You're right.

BOLDUAN: Real quick, because we have -- I would like a prophecy on this.

Do -- some Republicans, Fred, are saying that the eight should be essentially punished and held accountable. Do you think that should have happened? Because when you're talking about needing to get to 218 on the floor, do you think that that's going to help unity in the conference?

[11:15:08]

UPTON: These folks, they're forever part of that gang of eight. Yes, there will be some punishment that will be -- already, they're taking away earmarks and a few other things. It's not really a big deal to drum them out of the Republican Conference.

That just means that they don't show up Wednesday from 9:00 to 10:00 in the morning. Big deal. They can still speak on the floor. They're still on their committees. You're -- it's a slap on the wrist.

BOLDUAN: The prophecy has spoken.

Thank you both. Let's do this again -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right.

President Biden doing something he promised he would not do, building the wall, at least a section of the wall. The Biden administration announced yesterday it will waive dozens of federal laws to allow border wall construction in South Texas. The plan is to add 20 miles of new border barriers in Starr County in the Rio Grande Valley area.

In that one sector alone, about 245,000 migrants have tried to cross into the United States since October of just last year, so a year ago.

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez joins us now from the White House.

Biden's team says this is to address an acute and immediate need. We have been hearing from people on the border in El Paso, for example. But this has been an issue for a really long time. So what is the difference now? Why is he making this move now?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Sara, this boils down to the administration running up against a deadline. A source that I spoke with this morning said that the 2019 congressionally appropriated funds for border barrier had to be used by the end of fiscal year 2023.

That means that the administration had to make a choice. They either use the money or they don't use it, and they decided they're going to use it for these border barriers in South Texas. As you mentioned there, this is an area of the U.S.-Mexico border that is highly trafficked by migrants

We have talked about it repeatedly. And the numbers reveal that. Just from last October to August, there were nearly 300,000 encounters in just this one sector of the border. So, in the notice to the Federal Register, the homeland security secretary, Alejandro Mayorkas, made note of that, citing -- quote -- "high illegal entries."

Now, to do this and to do it in an expedited manner, he also had to waive certain laws. That includes, for example, the Clean Air Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act, the Endangered Species Act. Waiving these laws is very similar to what the Trump administration did when they were trying to build a border barrier.

What is very different here is that these are funds appropriated by Congress. Remember, under the Trump administration, they also used Pentagon funds. That is not what is happening here. And, last month, Customs and Border Protection sought public input from the community as they set up plans for these barriers.

But, of course, all of this is a politically precarious issue for a White House that, as you mentioned, Sara, had said for a long time, they weren't planning to build any wall.

SIDNER: Yes, believe me, already, the Republicans are taking up some of these talking points, as you might imagine in this case.

But this was use-it-or-lose-it money from 2019. So, that is an interesting point to be made.

Priscilla Alvarez, thank you so much -- John.

BERMAN: The memorial for late Senator Dianne Feinstein now closed to the public today. What we know about the security concerns behind that decision.

Dashcam video of the aftermath of a 2018 car crash where the now-wife of Senator Bob Menendez hit and killed a pedestrian, the alleged connection to the new bribery case against them.

At least 50 dead in a Russian strike against Ukraine at the very moment where key Republicans in Congress are refusing an aid package for Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:23:20]

SIDNER: We have got some breaking news for you now into CNN.

Ukraine now says 51 people are dead after a Russian missile strike on a small village of just 330 people. This video shows aftermath of the attack. It was on a shop and cafe. The cafe was holding a wake when it was hit.

CNN's Clarissa Ward is joining us now.

Devastating pictures to look at. I mean, it's just rubble. What can you tell us about what happened here?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, what we're hearing from Ukrainian officials, Sara, is that this was an Iskander missile that hit this small village called Hroza.

It's about 25, 27 miles away from the front lines in Kharkiv region around Kupiansk in the northeastern part of the country. Reportedly, according to Ukrainian sources, villagers had gathered in this cafe to mark the wake of one of the villagers when the missile hit.

They're now reporting, as you said, that 51 people have been killed. I will say, though, just in the last hour that number has been steadily climbing. And if this is indeed confirmed that 51 people have been killed, this would actually be the deadliest event that we have seen in Ukraine for quite some time.

I believe the last would be the missile attack on the Kramatorsk railway station. That took place in April of 2022, so about a year- and-a-half ago, and at least 50 people were killed in that attack. These sorts of strikes have become all too common.

But the timing of this one, Sara, is, of course, impossible to ignore with the chaos that has been unfolding on Capitol Hill and the very real shockwaves that that has sent through the hearts of many people in Ukraine, who are now fearful that they could be on the verge of losing or at least seeing a diminish sort of support from the U.S., financial, militarily, but also in terms of morale.

[11:25:21]

So, certainly, a lot of Ukrainians will be looking at what's happened today, and feeling very fearful about what is to come.

SIDNER: I do want to talk to you about something that's just happened that we have gotten in here the last couple of hours. The Pentagon is saying, look, they're running low on funds to send and help Ukraine. What has that done?

And, as you know, Congress is a mess. They can't do anything right now, because the House speaker has been ousted. And I know that Zelenskyy, the president there of Ukraine, has been watching all of this, probably nervously.

What are we hearing from him about what is happening in the United States? WARD: So he's in Granada in Spain today. He has been meeting with E.U. leaders. He has been putting a brave face on it. He has said essentially that he believes Ukraine continues to have bipartisan support, that this will be worked through.

But, underneath, I think there is a very palpable sense of unease, because even if this immediate hurdle, Sara is cleared, there is a sense that this could continue to happen again, and again, especially as the U.S. goes into an election year.

And right now, on the front lines, that counteroffensive, which has been grinding away, not making a huge difference in terms of being able to push forward, but burning through a huge amount of weaponry, and a huge amount of munitions, and the U.S. really is a critical ally for Ukraine in this capacity.

The Europeans have stepped up the aid that they have been giving both militarily and financially. But, according to one expert in the industry, the Europeans could only begin to supply maybe 5 to 10 percent of the munitions that Ukraine needs. So, Ukraine is more reliant than ever before, really, on U.S. support in this moment, Sara.

SIDNER: Yes. We are also hearing that there are weapons that they -- were seized from Iran by the United States. They are trying to send those over, but that's not going to do the trick ultimately.

And so this war continues to go on and on, killing so many people. We just want to remember 51 people killed, perhaps the deadliest attack we have seen yet in this war.

Clarissa Ward, you have spent a lot of time there. Thank you so much for your reporting. Appreciate you this morning -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us: CNN has new video of a deadly car accident involving the wife of Senator Bob Menendez. Now, it happened five years ago, so what it has to do now with the criminal charges they both face. The details, we have that ahead.

With the growing demand for diabetes drugs like Ozempic now being used for weight loss, how are drug companies keeping up? CNN goes inside one manufacturing plant to get a closer look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: How many can this do in an hour?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This line -- this is a high-speed filling machine, so, on an annual basis, this will fill millions of syringes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:30:00]