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Speaker Battle; Interview With Former U.S. Special Representative For Ukraine Kurt Volker; Russian Strike Kills 51 in Ukraine; White House Allows Limited Border Wall Construction. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired October 05, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DANA BASH, CNN HOST: A private burial will follow.

The 90-year -- 90-year-old Feinstein was the first woman elected to the Senate from California, where she already established herself as a force there for decades. She passed away last Thursday after multiple health issues.

Speakers at a memorial will include Vice President Kamala Harris, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Feinstein's longtime friend and colleague from San Francisco Nancy Pelosi. The service will also include taped remarks from President Biden.

May her memory be a blessing.

Thank you so much for joining INSIDE POLITICS.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Russia just unleashed a new brutal attack on Ukraine, killing at least 51 people, including a 6-year-old little boy, after a strike on a grocery store. CNN is live on the scene.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, no speaker and a long list of problems, the House frozen until Republicans elect a new leader, putting funding for the entire U.S. government and crucial support for Ukraine in serious doubt.

And President Biden building the wall after all. He just paved the way for new construction at the Southern border, despite saying he would not build another foot of the wall.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BROWN: We have breaking news out of Ukraine.

This right here on your screen is new video showing the devastating aftermath after a Russian missile strike hit a small village in the Kharkiv region earlier today, killing at least 51 people, one official saying the impact was so strong that the gender and the age of a 6- year-old little boy who died is in question, a child. Officials also say there were no targets in the area, and the attack

happened as people were holding a memorial for a deceased Ukrainian soldier.

SANCHEZ: Now, that strike appears to be one of the deadliest against civilians this year.

And it happens as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is warning Western allies not to slow down military aid, saying any pause in the conflict would only help Russia rebuild its military over the next few years, Zelenskyy in Spain today trying to court allies to his cause.

Let's go now to CNN senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen, who's on the scene of that Russian missile attack where dozens were killed.

Fred, take us there. What are you seeing?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Boris.

Well, I can say it's an absolute thing of devastation. You can see right behind me, if we pan over there, that's actually the building that was hit right here. The Ukrainians are saying that this was both a supermarket and a cafe.

But, as you guys can see, there's really not very much that's actually left of it, except maybe a bit of the foundation. They were saying, as you guys pointed out, that there was that memorial service going on to a Ukrainian soldier. But they also told us that the people who were at that memorial service were all local people.

We asked several times the authorities here, and they said that there was not a single military person inside here. This village is also very small and certainly doesn't appear to have much in the way of military in it. But you can see right here just how big the explosion was that ripped through here. The cleanup crews have been working here.

And they said that they managed to obviously recover some bodies from underneath. They managed to recover also a few people who were still alive underneath as well, but the carnage is just absolutely massive. And they say one of the reasons for that, guys, is because they say the Russians used an Iskander missile for this.

It's a medium-range missile, but one with an extremely powerful warhead, about 1,000-pound warhead, that obviously does things like this to a building like that. And I want to show you around, because we're actually standing right in the middle of this devastation.

You can see here it's a parking lot or something, the cars absolutely destroyed. There's a little bit of a playground over there that was also destroyed. And if we look over there where those lights are, that is actually where a lot of the bodies are still being recovered.

I don't want to take you guys over there simply because, I have to say, a lot of those bodies are in really, really bad condition, because the explosion, obviously, extremely powerful that ripped through here, but, certainly, the cleanup crews still very much at work.

We can see forensic experts who are at work as well still trying to identify people, even though I have to admit, in a lot of cases, it is really very difficult work. We have seen them clear a couple of bodies after putting them into body bags, and there were some pretty devastating scenes that we witnessed here when we were here earlier.

There was one gentleman who was standing over one of the body bags and crying and refusing to go away. And it turned out that it was actually his wife who had been killed here. He was also a local man from the area. And he then helped the cleanup crews actually load the body of his own wife onto a truck to be carried away.

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So, a really devastating scene that we're witnessing here. And once again, you can see behind me that this actually, despite the fact that it was -- I wouldn't even really call it a full-on supermarket. I would say that it was a little bit of a store that had a cafe in it, really not a very large building at all, absolutely annihilated by this rocket to the Ukrainian city that hit it.

And you guys have heard from the Ukrainian president, from Volodymyr Zelenskyy, blaming the Russians. The local authorities here, we spoke to the police here already, and they are also saying that they consider this to be an act of terrorism. They once again emphasize that there were no military people inside here.

But there certainly were a lot of people killed. I know that we have that number of 51 people, at least, who were killed. We know that the crews here are still going through here. And they tell us they believe that they might find further remains, but, at this point in time, finding any sort of survivors underneath this, they say, is pretty much impossible, guys.

BROWN: Fred, you have been covering this war since the very, very beginning. There have been so many brutal attacks.

The last and biggest attack on civilians was, of course, in April of 2022. And I'm wondering, just put this into perspective for all of us, for our viewers who are watching this, and so many months into this war might be thinking it's another horrible, brutal attack.

But what makes this one so significant, just so horrific, just in the context of this war?

PLEITGEN: Yes, well, I would say one of the things, obviously, that makes it so significant is the carnage.

And I think one of the things that you're saying, Pamela, is absolutely correct, as we can over here once again just to show our viewers what exactly happened here and how bad the devastation is. But you're absolutely right. This is not a single incident. Incidents like this have been happening

before. And I have been at similar venues where I have seen similar destructions of areas that were clearly civilian. There was one major attack in February of this year in the town of Dnipro where an entire residential building was annihilated by a missile that is normally designed to destroy an aircraft carrier.

Now you have a missile here that is really, can't be described as anything else than a tactical battlefield missile. The missile that, if the Ukrainians are correct, that was used on this building is something that is normally used to destroy and to kill gigantic troop formations and destroy armor.

And, obviously, if it's used on a building like this, then the aftermath, you can see right here. But, again, this is not something that is a rare occurrence here in this war. It's something that's happened time and again.

And one of the things that we have to point out is that we are in an area, in the Kharkiv oblast in the east of the country. We are fairly close to an area of the front line that's been active, but we're not that close to an area of the front line that's been active.

I would say that the nearest Russian position from where we are right now is probably about 25 miles away. So, this is by far not a front- line area. This is certainly not something where people who were living here would have been ready for this. They would have understood that they are in an area that could be a target for a gigantic attack like this one.

So, definitely, people were certainly caught off-guard. This place was caught off guard. This place is a really tiny village as well. There are no major structures here. There's a few smaller houses. And, certainly, from what the Ukrainians are saying, there isn't any military here in this village.

And that's one of the other reasons why this is so devastating. And, certainly, to get back to your point, it isn't the first time that we have seen civilians hit by extremely heavy weapons that are designed to kill large number of troops, but used on civilian areas with massive carnage like what you guys see behind me right now.

SANCHEZ: Yes, you can see even in the dark as the camera pans just the scope of the devastation there, far-reaching.

Fred Pleitgen from Ukraine, thank you so much for the update.

We want to discuss this attack and more now with former U.S. ambassador to NATO Kurt Volker.

Ambassador, thank you so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us.

Right away, I want to get your reaction to this brutal Russian strike. It's the deadliest on civilians for at least a year-plus, not an apparent military target, but, rather, a service for a Ukrainian soldier that had passed away.

Your reaction seeing those images?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE: Yes, it's absolutely devastating and horrific to see those kinds of images.

But this is what the Ukrainians are facing every day. This may have been one of the largest attacks in a long time that killed civilians, but it is by no means alone. There are attacks on Ukrainian cities virtually every night. And this is intended to terrorize the population and to try to force them to submit to Russia's takeover.

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This is exactly why Russia needs to be stopped. This is not a border dispute. This is not some kind of conflict where Russia has legitimate security concerns and they're trying to address them. This is a brutal aggression in order to take over a sovereign state and to destroy its people and to destroy Ukrainian identity.

And U.S. assistance in this is critical. So we have to keep this going, because, if we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, we're going to face this again and again in other places.

SANCHEZ: On that note, Ambassador, does it surprise you that an attack of this scale using the kind of missile that Fred was describing comes at a time when there are questions about support for Ukraine, not only here in the United States, but in Spain, in Italy, among the Polish as well?

VOLKER: Well, Vladimir Putin is always trying to send a message.

And, in this case, he talked about nuclear weapons in a speech earlier today, and then he has this major attack as well. He's trying to send a message to the West to warn us off that don't try to help Ukraine. Maybe we will use a nuclear weapon. But don't try to help Ukraine. It's futile. We will just kill them all.

And I think that's the kind of evil and the kind of deliberateness to Putin's aggression that we really need to see for what it is and be prepared to stop it.

SANCHEZ: On the question of how to stop it, the main talking point from those who oppose additional aid revolves around corruption and making sure that that aid gets to where it needs to go, the battlefield. I have spoken to experts who essentially say that concerns over corruption in Ukraine are overblown.

They say that Zelenskyy has been proactive in handling concerns, firing people with the Ministry of Defense who are even perceived as being corrupt. They argue that those concerns, those apprehensions should not slow down Western support.

Where are you in that argument?

VOLKER: Well, there is no country that has zero corruption, including our country.

So we can't have too high a standard here. And in the case of Ukraine, they are doing their best to deal with corruption as it is, but, particularly in the military and military forces, there is such a premium on fighting back to defend against the Russians, there is very little scope for corruption there.

And in addition to that, the way U.S. assistance works, we provide money to the Pentagon. The Pentagon provides weapons to Ukraine, not money. And those weapons go to the battlefield. And, meanwhile, the money is used to replenish U.S. supplies with new equipment.

So there is very little chance of corruption through that system. We're actually supporting U.S. defense industry, U.S. military capabilities, and supporting Ukraine with older capabilities.

SANCHEZ: So would you say then that it is a mischaracterization by leadership in Congress to voice this apprehension, to voice opposition to more aid for Ukraine?

And, if so, is there something that can be done to sway them or public opinion to help the cause of defending Ukraine from the Russian invasion?

VOLKER: Right.

Well, there are two separate issues. One of them is the American interest in seeing Ukraine defeat Russian forces inside Ukraine, so that we don't see Russia attacking elsewhere, triggering a NATO Article 5 commitment that gets the U.S. directly involved.

By spending less than 5 percent of our defense budget, we are seeing Ukraine destroy at least half of Russia's conventional military capability, which is reducing the threat to NATO and the United States. So that is a good investment for U.S. interests.

Separate from that is the question, is there any corruption in Ukraine? How do we address that? And, there, I fully agree with those who want to see strong accountability measures so that we are tracking the assistance that we provide, we are following up to make sure there is no corruption in the system, and we are working with President Zelenskyy and his team to root out that corruption, if possible.

SANCHEZ: So, is it an issue of communications? Is it selling the idea to the American people that is lagging behind?

Because public support doesn't appear to be behind the idea of more aid to Ukraine.

VOLKER: Yes, it is an issue of communications to a large degree, because, when you dig into this, a majority of people say they still believe that Ukraine has a right to defend itself, Ukraine should win, we should help Ukraine.

But then it breaks down when you say, well, how much money and for how long? Is it worth it? But then, when you go further and you explain that, as I just did, with the military assistance, this is not money leaving the United States. This is money going to our Pentagon. We're providing weapons to Ukraine, and that Ukraine is actually succeeding on the battlefield.

Over half of the territory that Russia took last year has been taken back by Ukraine already. The remainder is very slow and hard going, but they have taken back 54 percent already. and they need to be supported to continue to take back the rest.

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And, finally, if we don't help them do this, we run a risk of Russia attacking other countries where we will be directly involved. And we'd rather avoid that by hoping Ukraine win now.

SANCHEZ: Yes, not to mention the loss of life we're already seeing, this brutal attack today, at least 51 people killed in Eastern Ukraine, an attack on what appears to be a grocery store, not a military target.

Ambassador Kurt Volker, we have to leave the conversation there. We appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

VOLKER: Thank you for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course -- Pam.

BROWN: I want to get straight to Capitol Hill, because, as Ukraine deals with this new onslaught from Russia, the future of U.S. aid for Kyiv remains at a standstill, especially now as jockeying for the speakership is in full swing.

CNN's Melanie Zanona joins us live on Capitol Hill.

What are you hearing, Melanie, on where things stand in the speaker's race?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, Pam, the race to replace Kevin McCarthy is officially under way.

There have been two candidates who have already jumped into the race. That includes Steve Scalise. He's the number two Republican. He is really seen as the heir apparent. He has a lot of institutional advantages since he is already in leadership.

And then there's Jim Jordan. He is the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. He is beloved by conservatives. And both men have been furiously working the phones and meeting with members over the past few days trying to line up supporters.

I'm also told that Jim Jordan has spoken to former President Donald Trump about his speakership's bid. Now, it's unclear whether Trump would get involved, although he is toying with the idea of coming here to Capitol Hill next week, as Republicans prepare for their candidate forum on Tuesday, this according to our colleague Kristen Holmes. But, at this point, Pam, it is really unclear whether either of those

candidates can get 218 votes on the House floor and overcome the same challenges that bedeviled Kevin McCarthy. Two of the issues that are already cropping up as potential issues in this race is what to do about Ukraine funding and also whether to reform the motion to vacate the speaker's chair, that tool that was used to remove Kevin McCarthy.

But there's also a lot of raw emotions and frayed relationships inside the conference. It's hard to overlook that. And it might make it even more challenging for Republicans to come together quickly.

Jim Jordan was asked about this earlier today about -- reporters, about those eight Republicans who took down Kevin McCarthy.

Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I disagree with what took place, but those guys are friends of mine. And I think that's the message I have been talking to my colleagues about is, who can who can bring the eight into the -- on part of the team? Who can unite our team? I think I can do that. If I didn't think I could do that, I wouldn't run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: Now, there could be repercussions for those eight members who voted against Kevin McCarthy.

There's already calls to expel Congressman Matt Gaetz from the House Republican Conference. But, at this point, they can't do anything, Pam, until they elect a new speaker. All business is paralyzed in the House until they do, and it's just really unclear if and when Republicans will be able to come together on a speaker, Pam.

BROWN: Yes, and all of this taking on more weight with this brutal attack in Ukraine against civilians, and Ukraine aid hangs in the balance.

Thank you so much, Melanie Zanona. Much appreciated.

Well, President Biden just addressed news that his administration will build a new border wall in Texas, despite his promises to not build -- quote -- "another foot."

His jaw-dropping response is next on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SANCHEZ: Today, President Biden is taking new action to address the immigration crisis at the Southern border, action that appears to contradict a key 2020 campaign promise.

His administration has now cleared the way for up to 20 miles of new border wall construction in South Texas because of what Homeland Security calls an acute and immediate need, that urgency driven home by chaotic scenes like this one near El Paso yesterday.

You can see dozens and dozens of migrants rushing past border agents. Keep in mind El Paso isn't even where these new barriers are going. The new stretch is going to be built in Starr County to the southeast. The practical effects on the ground remain to be seen, but the Mexican president says the U.S. is acting irresponsibly, and the move domestically could be risky politically for Biden.

Why? This was his stance on the issue during his last campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Trump campaigned on build that wall. Are you willing to tear that wall down?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, there will not be another foot of wall constructed in my administration.

QUESTION: The president also said today that former presidents have said to him that they wish that they had built a wall. Do you recall President Obama ever saying that?

BIDEN: I can't think of a single one -- I can't think of a single one who said that. We need border security, but that's not the border security we need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN's Kayla Tausche is at the White House for us.

So, Kayla, what went into this decision? Why is it happening now?

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, the White House says that this was part of a use-it-or-lose it package of funds that expired at the end of the fiscal year if it wasn't used.

And just last hour, President Biden got a question from a reporter in a pool spray about whether he believes border walls work, and he said he tried to use this money for other things, but couldn't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I want to answer one question the border wall. The border wall, the money was appropriated for the border wall, I tried to get them to re-appropriate, to redirect that money. They didn't. They wouldn't.

And, in the meantime, there's nothing under the law other than they have to use the money for what it's appropriated. I can't stop that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAUSCHE: Even so, the homeland security secretary cited that acute and immediate need in the official notice authorizing this border wall construction.

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And the move comes as border encounters have surged in the hundreds of thousands just in recent months. To start this authorization, the administration is going to be waiving 26 federal laws, including, but not limited to the Clean Air Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act and the Endangered Species Act.

But, Boris, so far there is no final word on when this new construction is set to begin.

SANCHEZ: A situation to continue monitoring.

Kayla Tausche, thank you so much from the White House -- Pam.

BROWN: Interesting comments from President Biden just now.

Let's discuss further with one more acting Director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement under President Obama John Sandweg.

President Biden claims that he can't stop this move. He doesn't think the border wall will work. What do you think? Is this just a waste of money?

JOHN SANDWEG, FORMER ACTING ICE DIRECTOR: Well, listen, we're talking about 20 miles of border fencing in an area that's actually seeing declining numbers.

A lot of the traffic, as was referenced in the report a moment ago, has been moving west back to the Tucson Sector in Arizona and in El Paso Sector in West Texas. So, while the administration is trying to downplay this and say their hand was forced by this appropriation, I do think this reflects the growing political and operational realities of the situation.

We have increasing numbers at the border, and the administration is coming under political fires from allies who are having to deal with the influx of migrants in their cities. So, look, at the end of the day, I think, operationally, this will have minimal impact, less than 20 miles on a border of 2,000 miles, certainly some operational benefits potentially to the Border Patrol.

But it's not going to solve the problem. But I do think it reflects the growing need to try to dig deep to find anything to address what's going on.

BROWN: And I want to get to how do you solve this problem later, the million-dollar question, right?

But, first, I just -- I'm hoping you can help us better understand the fact that this order includes the waiving of 26 laws, many of them environmental-related. When I saw that, I wonder, how does an administration just unilaterally waive a law?

SANDWEG: Yes, well, there's a special law that was passed by Congress back in 2006. I mean, this border wall debate has been going on in this country for almost 20 years now.

But back in 2006, Congress gave the secretary of DHS the power to waive environmental laws for the construction of a border wall. It has never been utilized by a Democratic president. And I do think that, while the administration is trying to downplay the significance of this, the bottom line is, while they might be -- they might have been obligated to spend the funds, it's not clear that they're obligated to waive the various environmental restrictions as well.

So there is a lot of significance to this, in the sense it's the first Democrat administration to invoke that authority and waive these environmental laws. But, at the same time, again, we really are only talking about 20 miles of border fencing in a remote area in South Texas.

BROWN: That's really interesting context.

So let's look at the recent polling. It shows pretty widespread dispassion, as you see on your screen for our viewers, with Biden's handling of the border. But it also shows half of Americans don't think more border wall is a solution.

What other policy solutions are available and politically achievable?

SANDWEG: Yes, look, it's very hard.

And the -- right now, we have legislation, asylum legislation, that essentially gives the right to individuals who set foot in America, claim fear of persecution in their home country. They cannot be removed unless and until an immigration judge decides that they don't president a valid claim.

And that is the crux of the problem. We have never funded the immigration courts to handle anywhere near this volume. So you see the administration is really struggling. They -- it's -- they have inherited a very difficult problem. This was going on long before the Biden administration

But they have very limited tools to solve it. And I think, like, today, you're seeing Secretary Mayorkas, Secretary Blinken in Mexico meeting with President Lopez Obrador. That could be a big part of the solution, try to limit -- Mexico try to do a better job of limiting the flow of individuals through Mexico.

Look, the problem only becomes when they set foot in the United States. Clearly, there's very little we can do to stop people in Mexico from approaching our border. We can only deal with it once they get here. So that's part of the reason why you're seeing this delegation in Mexico today, is to just put additional and work harder with Mexico to see what else they can do to limit the flow to our border.

But, look, it's a very, very challenging problem and one that was long -- years in the making.

BROWN: Yes, decades. John Sandweg, thank you very much for coming on to offer your

perspective.

Well, Donald Trump's civil fraud trial is now back under way in New York. And, for the first time since it started, Trump is not there. So what's the mood like without the former president in the room?

We are live right outside that courthouse up ahead.

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