Return to Transcripts main page
CNN News Central
Deadly Russian Airstrike in Ukraine; U.S. Aid to Ukraine in Jeopardy; Border Wall Construction Resumes; Bipartisan Dignity Act for Immigration Reform; Leadership Battle in the Republican Party. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired October 05, 2023 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: A horrific attack on civilians. Ukraine says more than 50 people were killed by a Russian airstrike that hit a store and a nearby cafe. A report from a deadly scene up next.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Meantime USA to Ukraine is drying up and that is being felt on the battlefield with a speakerless House in complete disarray. Help may not be on the way anytime soon. We're going to take you live to Capitol Hill for the latest on the race to replace Kevin McCarthy. Plus, building the wall. The White House waiting dozens of federal laws to allow additional wall construction at the southern border with Mexico. We'll explain what's behind the move by President Biden who once promised to not build another foot. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.
BROWN: And we began with a desperate call for more aid in Ukraine as dozens of people are killed in what officials are calling one of the deadliest attacks against civilians since the conflict began. President Zelenskyy is warning European leaders at a summit in Spain that Russia's aggression will continue, especially if the aid dries up. The Ukrainian leader pointed to the United States' quote growing political storm as a critical moment in the war.
Meanwhile, Ukrainian officials are desperately digging through rubble right now searching for more victims. After a Russian strike targeted a cafe and shop in the Kharkiv region, killing at least 51 people. Officials say there were no military targets in the area. CNN international correspondent Fred Pleitgen has more details from the scene. Fred.
FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: An absolutely devastating attack that happened here in the village Khrouza in eastern Ukraine. We're actually pretty far away from the front lines. I would say about maybe 25 miles away from the front lines. Nevertheless, as you can see, this building here absolutely annihilated. The Ukrainians are saying that this was a supermarket and a cafe. Now they say there was an event going on at the cafe, that there were a lot of people in the cafe for some sort of funeral event for someone who is local to here. They also say more than 50 people were killed in this attack and the bodies were absolutely mangled.
I want to show you over here. You can see that a lot of the forensic work is actually still going on over there. We're obviously not going to go close to there because some of the bodies really are not in very good condition. The Ukrainians are telling us that because of the thrust of the explosion, because the explosion was so strong that they actually haven't been able to identify all of the bodies yet simply because they're in such bad condition.
The Ukrainian authorities say that the missile that was used to destroy this building was an Iskander. That's a medium range missile with a massive warhead that can do a lot of damage. And obviously when it's dropped on a fairly small building like this one, the result, you can see it right here.
BROWN: Fred Pleitgen, thank you so much. So incredibly disturbing to see that. I want to bring in Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward. You know, Clarissa, President Zelenskyy is relying on other world leaders to step up as the U.S. is, you know and threatened by the political upheaval in Congress. We're seeing this play out. How are European leaders responding to this?.
[14:05:19]
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think there's definitely a very real sense of anxiety, Pamela. We saw President Zelenskyy in Granada in Spain today meeting with European leaders. He was trying to put a brave face on it, essentially saying that, you know, a lot of work needs to be done, but believing that the support will continue, that bipartisan support will continue. But privately, I think you hear more and more European leaders starting to give voice to the possibility that their populations may be becoming increasingly disenchanted with the very large check that many of these countries are having to write.
We heard today from the Italian Prime Minister, Giorgia Maloney, who said, listen, we are still in lockstep and steadfast with Ukraine, but we have to be mindful of public support and issues that have arisen on the back of the war with Ukraine, such as migration and inflation and surging energy prices are having an effect on the morale of people. So I think it's fair to say there is anxiety. Everybody in Europe would very much like to see President Biden with this speech that's anticipated any day now make a strong case to the American people about why they should continue to support the war in Ukraine.
BROWN: And President Zelenskyy, for his part, is saying, look, a tough time for the United States is a tough time for Ukraine. What will happen if Ukraine doesn't get the continued aid? Do you think we will see more stepped up Russian aggression, as Zelenskyy has been warning about?
WARD: Well, I think the argument that you'll hear always from Ukrainian leaders is that what happens in Ukraine doesn't stay in Ukraine. And frankly, this isn't about Ukraine. This is about democracies versus autocracies. This is about international law. This is about the liberal order, as it were. And I think he will continue to make that argument strongly. The reality on the ground is that the Ukrainians will be facing the fight of their lives. They already are. But without that continued aid and particularly without munitions, the counter offensive that has been going on for months now, which is largely stalled, it's been incremental gains, but it's been very, very fierce fighting, Pamela.
They are burning through an extraordinary amount of ammunition. One weapons expert said that Europe, even if they continue to step up, could maybe supply five to 10 percent of those munitions that are needed. So Ukrainian forces desperately need U.S. support now, not just in terms of weaponry, not just in terms of finance, but in terms of morale and sending a strong message to the rest of the world, but particularly to President Vladimir Putin, who I think it's important to remember has for quite some time now realized that his greatest strength is his ability to play the long game here. The fact that he does not have to answer to his constituents, that they can continue to suffer and survive and keep this war grinding on for as long as they possibly can in an effort to try to create fissures and cracks in the alliance supporting Ukraine, Pamela.
BROWN: And we should note, Clarissa, that you have been covering this war from the beginning. You have been on the ground. You have just seen the carnage up close and personal and the suffering of these people there in Ukraine. And I'm wondering, you know, in light of the attack at this grocery store in Ukraine that Fred was just reporting on, all these civilians killed, what your reaction is to that and what you think the larger message is from Vladimir Putin as, you know, it appears that support for more Ukraine aid is waning on the global stage.
WARD: I mean, I think this attack is just, you know, a brutal and horrifying reminder of what's at stake here. We are talking about a war where scores of civilians are being killed on a daily, if not weekly, basis. This attack that you just saw Fred reporting from on the ground is the deadliest that we have seen since, I believe, April of last year. But it's by no means a solitary incident. These sorts of things are happening far too often. And the reality is, as I've seen many times reporting on wars across the world for nearly two decades, that if the world doesn't take a stand, these things continue and you will continue to see more death and you will continue to see more bloodshed and you will continue to see these types of horrifying attacks on civilians go unabated.
BROWN: Clarissa Ward, thank you so much. Boris.
SANCHEZ: Back in Washington, the fate of U.S. aid to Ukraine hangs in the balance as House Republicans scramble for a new speaker. Congressman Jim Jordan, who announced his candidacy for the speakership yesterday, says he wants answers before he signs off on any more funding for Ukraine. Watch this.
[14:09:49]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I've been clear that there are two fundamental questions that need to be answered. What's the goal? Is the goal some negotiated peace? Is the goal some get them out of eastern Ukraine? Is the goal to get the Russians out of Crimea, which they've had during the Obama administration, they've had for now nine years? What is the goal? What is the objective? Second question, if you can tell us what the goal is, how's the money being spent? How can we account for that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Let's take you now live to Capitol Hill with CNN's Manu Raju. So, Manu, the race for the speakership is heating up.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No question about it. It's really moving behind the scenes at this moment. Congressman Jim Jordan meeting with some key members, as well as Steve Scalise on the phone talking to a whole range of members. The goal at the moment is to secure commitments, get people behind their candidacies, announce that publicly, or give them assurances privately. Those assurances, though, may not mean much, because it's ultimately a secret ballot election that will happen next week that will nominate the candidate for speaker, a majority of the House Republican Conference, and then the full House will vote right afterwards.
Jordan also having some talks with former President Donald Trump. He talked to him about his bid, and there's some talk that Trump himself may try to come to Capitol Hill on Tuesday when House Republicans meet behind closed doors. We don't know if that will happen yet.
Now, this all comes as there are major concerns about all the events of this past week, namely about the agenda here on Capitol Hill, as well as how it appears for Republicans. And talking to Republican senators and House members, that is the real fear, that it undercuts what they've been trying to do, and it could hurt them in the next November's elections in keeping the House and taking back the Senate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): It's not an attractive picture, so we've got to do better. I think it makes the House Republican rebels look foolish. They look unserious. I think they look like they're more interested in fighting than governing.
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): We in Congress have some work to do to restore the trust in this institution called Congress.
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): Folks that ran as Republicans have to decide whether or not they want to act as a majority or if they're going to act like a Republican party and a populist party. So now the question is, will the populists come back into the Republican fold?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And just a lot of questions here about not just the agenda, avoiding major things like a government shutdown by mid-November, but also for these candidates themselves. How do they placate the real raw emotions within the Republican Party? People are very angry about the way that McCarthy was pushed out. There are a lot of members who are concerned about that. What promises are they making in order to ensure that the House can once again function? All these things raise questions to Boris about whether each candidate, Steve Scalise or Jim Jordan, can get the 218 votes they need on the House floor to be elected speaker. That is uncertain at this moment as they try to appease their members who want some answers about how this House can get back into -- business here, but no clear answers into how that will happen just yet.
SANCHEZ: Yeah, a tough path not only to get elected speaker, but then once you are, the docket, the list of issues that you'll have to deal with are quite extensive. Manu Raju from Capitol Hill, thank you so much.
In a CNN exclusive with CNN's Chris John Amanpour today, former U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is warning that whoever the next House speaker is, they'll need to figure out a way to control that small band of rebels that ousted Kevin McCarthy. Here's a small portion of that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So should the Democrats have saved him, so to speak? Should they have voted to keep him in?
HILARY CLINTON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: You know, that was a very tough call for the Democratic caucus. But the problem was for them, as I understand it, he was totally untrustworthy by any measure. He immediately after they did help him keep the government open, as you know, began to blame them for all kinds of, you know, extraneous matters. And at some point, a leader who has lost all credibility in dealing with the opposition, where you want to have an open line of communication, you want to be able to trust his word, is going to, you know, ask for their help and not get it.
AMANPOUR: It's said that the main contenders for his position are Jim Jordan, who you know very well from Benghazi --
CLINTON: Oh, I don't know him well. I watched him and, you know, stared at him for 11 hours while he made stuff up about me. So I don't know him, but I've seen him in action.
AMANPOUR: So what would it mean if he gets the speakership?
CLINTON: Well, I mean, he is one of the principal ring leaders of the circus that's been created in the Republican Party for the last several years. I have no inside knowledge about what the Republicans will do, who they will end up voting for. But when do they put the country first? They do not represent a majority of even the Republican Party. When you look at the extremists in the House. They certainly don't represent a majority of the country and you know somebody has to stand up and say enough. You know we can have disagreements I'm all for that. I was in the Senate for eight years. I worked with a lot of Republicans and you know opposed them when I didn't agree. But at some point there needs to be a backlash against the control that this small group of extremists have and I don't know who will lead that but let's hope whoever becomes the new speaker will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:15:09]
SANCHEZ: Let's get some perspective now with CNN senior political analyst Gloria Borger. Gloria great to see you as always. We just heard from Secretary -- former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton there saying that part of the reason Kevin McCarthy was ousted is because people saw him as untrustworthy. I'm wondering how you perceive those remarks.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well I think he was seen as untrustworthy by Democrats in particular obviously because look he was the one who opened the impeachment inquiry against against Joe Biden. They believe he didn't abide by the spending levels that he had agreed to with Joe Biden earlier in the summer and they felt that time and time again they couldn't trust him and I think you know in a way that's what the Gang of Eight felt also and I think as she said it was a difficult decision for Democrats but in the end also they didn't feel this was their fight. They felt that this was an internal Republican Civil War and that they ought not to step into it and so they decided unanimously to say no we're not getting involved in this.
SANCHEZ: She also shared her perspective of Jim Jordan who she noted she saw in action during the Benghazi hearing.
BORGER: She sure did.
SANCHEZ: She described him as one of the ringleaders of the circus. He has been one of Donald Trump's most close allies in the House. What do you expect the House to look like if he winds up becoming speaker?
BORGER: Well you know, it's -- he's very conservative. He's close to Donald Trump. He's made a point of saying that he's spoken with Donald Trump about this. He was an original founder of the of the Freedom Caucus and so will the House be more conservative? You can argue that McCarthy became a captive of the conservatives and so it was very conservative because of McCarthy anyway. So the question is how would Jordan govern? Would he be willing to reach across the aisle? Most people believe not.
He's against Ukraine aid but I keep thinking in talking to some Democrats about whether there is any way that some deal could be struck to show that this House can govern on Ukraine aid and the border. --
SANCHEZ: Interesting.
BORGER: -- Maybe there's a way, maybe there's a way to pair those two and to get something done on that because I think it's incumbent upon Republicans now who lead the House to show that they can actually govern and I think you're hearing that from Republicans on the Senate side also who are saying hey guys put up you know and they haven't done that so far. SANCHEZ: Not a pretty picture as John Cornyn of Texas described. Not
at all. What happens with the lingering animosity between some Republicans and the -- the eight or so who voted against McCarthy? Matt Gaetz there are talks of him potentially being expelled.
BORGER: He's not going to win a popularity contest. Let's -- let's put it that way. And you know there's talk of expelling him from the conference, but in reality what does that mean that you don't get to go to conference meetings? I mean that's not really a punishment you know they're gonna excommunicate him from going to a homeroom you know I think -- I think that's -- that's not really a punishment and I think there's a lot of anger and there are ways they can say well you know we're not considering any of the bills you bring up or you know there are ways to punish him but in the end as angry as Republicans are I think they know that's not what they have to focus on right now they have to focus on showing they can be a governing majority no matter how slim that majority is they have to get to work.
SANCHEZ: And keeping the government open --
BORGER: Yes.
SANCHEZ: -- and some 40 days or so.
BORGER: Yeah issue number one. Yeah.
SANCHEZ: Gloria Borger thanks so much for the time.
BORGER: Thanks.
SANCHEZ: Still to come on CNN News Central a surprise move from the Biden administration waiving dozensof federal laws to allow for border wall construction in Texas. The president says he could not stop it. We're gonna take you live to the White House in moments to fact-check that claim. Also ahead high gas prices could fall and fall fast we're gonna tell you when and how low they may go straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:19:29]
BROWN: Today, immigration tops the agenda for the White House. As senior cabinet members meet with the Mexican president and Mexico City, President Biden has cleared the way for 20 miles of new border barriers to be built in Texas. And about face from Biden's 2020 campaign promise that he would not oversee any new border wall construction. And a short time ago, he even told reporters walls don't work. So why did he take this step? Well, he says his hands are tied. CNN's MJ Lee is at the White House. So MJ, break this down for us.
MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Pam, let me just first explain what it is exactly that we are talking about here. We are talking about the administration waiving 26 federal laws in order for there to be wall construction at the Southern border. The DHS has basically said that they believe it is necessary for these laws to be waived in order for there to be expeditious construction of these barriers. And they're also emphasizing that these funds were previously appropriated exactly for this purpose under the Trump administration. Something that the president himself tried to explain to reporters just a moment ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm gonna answer one question on the border wall. The border wall, the money was appropriated for the border wall. I tried to get them to re- appropriate, to redirect that money. They didn't, they wouldn't. And in the meantime, there's nothing under the law other than they have to use the money for what is appropriate. I can't stop that.
UNKNOWN: Do you believe the border wall is works?
BIDEN: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:25:19]
LEE: And Pam, the reason that this is so politically complicated for this president is that as a presidential candidate back in 2020, the president said that not another foot of wall would be constructed under his watch. Obviously, that is precisely what is about to happen.
The other issue I would point out, you heard the president there saying that he does not believe a border wall is effective. Well, that appears to put him at odds, directly at odds with his DHS secretary, who wrote that there is an acute and immediate need to construct physical barriers to keep the border crossings at bay.
So, you know, we've been keeping an eye on the White House press briefing that has been going on, and the press secretary has been getting a whole lot of questions on both of those questions. The breaking of a campaign promise and the fact that the president seems to be not on the same page as his DHS secretary. And they didn't have a lot of satisfying answers on both fronts, Pam.
BROWN: ALright, MJ Lee, thank you, Boris.
SANCHEZ: Let's get some perspective now from Capitol Hill. Republican Congresswoman Maria Elvira Salazar of Florida joins us now. Congresswoman, thanks so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us. I first want to get your reaction to President Biden taking steps to fortify the border. He's using money that was approved during the Trump administration to expand that border barrier in South Texas. It's a new approach for the White House. So is this a step that you applaud?
REP. MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR (R-FL): It's highly hypocritical.That's what it is. And that's why the American public is so upset with elected officials in both parties, because sometimes elected officials say one thing and they do another. And this is the perfect example, as you just reported very accurately, that three years ago, President Biden said that he was inhumane and that he was not going to continue building the wall. And whether the wall is necessary, we need technology, which I'll explain to you later. But the reality is that this is a political move and the American people see through it. The desperation --
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Effectively, though,
SALAZAR: -- is so big in this country.
SANCHEZ: Whether Biden is going back on a promise or not, effectively, is this a step that you support?
SALAZAR: Well, I'm glad that you're asking me. I'm the only member of Congress that has written a bipartisan law in order to solve the problem at the border. And it includes and for those who are watching me, I just want to point out that I have done a major study and the wall in order I mean, the border in order to be secured needs more than physical structures, needs drones, needs more border patrol. It needs infrared cameras. It needs drones. It needs towers. It needs a lot of technology. And obviously it needs physical barriers. But everything that we're talking about right now is all it's all political.
Three years ago, President Biden should have sat down and say, Okay, so what is needed, what's needed right now in order to secure the border and not to have the crisis that we have right now. --
SANCHEZ: So --
(CROSSTALK)
SALAZAR: But they didn't do it. And so now everything is just --
SANCHEZ: It sounds --
SALAZAR: -- is just escaping their hands. Now they're going back to this.
SANCHEZ: It sounds like you do support the move. We should note that some of the money is also going to things that you mentioned, additional security around the border. And it does appear that the White House is open to addressing that security aspect of the immigration crisis, the biggest motivator for Republicans. Have you gotten any feedback from members of your conference about the other side of the immigration debate, and that is expanding access to asylum claims?
SALAZAR: Well, the asylum claim is another problem that we have. The asylum system is broken because people are gaming the system. That's why in my law, the Dignity Act, I am creating humanitarian centers, which are where people will be welcomed if they are claiming for asylum in order for us to determine if they have any merit. Is it a yes, is it a no, or it's a maybe in 60 days. Immigration is broken from the legal to the illegal system, including the border, including the southern border. It's time for Washington to do something.
It's not the White House, it's not DHS, it's Congress, the one who has to legislate and create a piece of paper, legislation that will solve from A to Z, because these are just little patches. Don't you see it now after three years, they're desperate. What are we going to do? Oh, my God, let's go back to what the former president created. So you see, that's all politics. That's why in Congress, we need to be serious and create legislation that will solve the problem once and for all.
SANCHEZ: You did introduce that bipartisan -- you did introduce that bipartisan Dignity Act. It has not gotten a whole lot of traction. And I think part of it has to do with specifically members of your party being opposed to reworking the asylum system to make it more accessible. Is that something that you've brought up in conversations over who should become?
