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Child Among 51 Killed In Russian Attack On Village Shop, Cafe; House Halted As GOP Searches For Next Speaker; Rep. Kevin Kiley (R-CA) Discusses About Electing House Speaker And Move Forward; Biden Waives Fed Laws To Allow New Border Wall Construction. Aired 3-3:30 ET

Aired October 05, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:56]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Russian terror, that's how Ukrainian President Zelenskyy is describing an attack on a grocery store in eastern Ukraine that killed at least 50 people. We're going to take you there live in moments as rescuers continue searching through the rubble.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Biden's border move after promising there will not be another foot of wall built under his administration. The president is doing just that and waiving 26 laws in the process. What he's now saying about that decision.

SANCHEZ: And the House always wins or does it? With no speaker, no consensus on who to lead, work of the House of Representatives is still on ice. We've got the latest on who's vying to gain enough support to become the next House Speaker.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

An inhuman terrorist attack, that's how Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is describing a deadly Russian strike against a small village in the country's Kharkiv region. The Ukrainian leaders warning world leaders that Russia's aggression will continue to grow if aid to Ukraine runs dry. Today's brutal strike left at least 51 people dead. Officials say it is one of the deadliest attacks against civilians since this conflict began.

CNN International Correspondent, Fred Pleitgen, is live on the scene of that attack.

Fred, walk us through what you're seeing.

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Boris. Well, it certainly is a scene of utter devastation, as you already have said. So I am right in front of the building that was hit. And as you can see, it has been completely annihilated.

I think one of the things that we can really show here, as you can see, there's this giant block here which appears to have been some sort of wall or some sort of other structure that was just completely taken off the building. And if you look at the rubble itself, it's been really decimated into very small pieces. And you mentioned, Boris, that this was a supermarket, but it was also a cafe and also seems to have been a small sort of event center here as well.

In fact, when the missile struck, there was a funeral wake going on for a soldier who was killed about a year ago and who was supposed to be reburied here. This is an area that was under Russian control and is now under Ukrainian control again. The folks that we've spoken to here on the ground, both the authorities and the local residents say that the people who were at this funeral wake, none of them were military.

And certainly, I have to say there were some pretty graphic scenes when we got here a little bit earlier. There were still a lot of bodies laying around, many of them in a really devastating state. And certainly they all looked like civilians from what we could see. Definitely no sign that any sort of military was inside here or inside this very small village as well.

But you can just see the fact that this was sort of a civilian installation right there. You can still see a sort of container that seems to have had ice cream. Obviously, all of that completely annihilated. And the Ukrainians say one of the reasons why the devastation is so bad, why you're seeing what you see behind me is that the Russians used, the Ukrainians say, an Iskander missile to hit this building. That is a very powerful medium range missile with a huge (inaudible) of about a thousand pounds.

It's normally something that you would maybe use against troop concentrations or armored vehicles. But if you use it against a building like this, obviously we can see what happened then. The rescue crews were here searching to see whether or not there's any survivors. But they say they're pretty much already done. They don't believe that there's anybody who could possibly still be alive underneath all of this.

A lot of bodies have been cleared away. And needless to say that there were some pretty devastating scenes that we had to witness here. There was one gentleman who was weeping over a body bag that we saw and was just refusing to go away. And we later found out that it was his wife who had been killed here. And sort of the last thing that he could do for her is, with the cleanup crews, lift her body into a truck that was bringing the bodies away, of course, many of them for identification.

[15:05:00]

But the Ukrainians are saying because the strike was so powerful, because these people were in a building with a very soft and not very thick roof, it's very difficult to identify a lot of the bodies, because, quite frankly, there isn't very much left of a lot of the people who were inside here. A devastating strike, the Ukrainians say. You were mentioning the condemnation coming from Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Certainly he's saying this is one of the reasons what you're seeing here, why Ukraine needs better air defense capabilities and obviously pointing towards the United States needs those weapons deliveries to continue as well, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes, some heart-wrenching details there from Fred Pleitgen on the scene in eastern Ukraine. Fred, thank you so much.

We want to dig deeper now with former NATO allied - NATO Supreme Allied Commander, Gen. Wesley Clark.

Gen. Clark, thanks so much for being with us.

What do you estimate is Vladimir Putin's calculation here, this Iskander missile going into an area that is full of civilians, not really a military target, and it's not exactly on the front lines?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: It's punishment, pure and simple. It's the Russian way of war. If the Ukrainians are resisting, they should be killed and that's the intent of the strike by the Iskander missile.

SANCHEZ: So General, obviously the timing of this I think is significant too, because it comes as support for the war in Ukraine from the West is appearing to wane. There are some doubts about whether Congress will pass more funding for Ukraine here in the United States. Zelenskyy right now is in Spain trying to court support from European allies. What do you make of the timing of this?

CLARK: So I think it's a calculated gamble by Putin. He believes, and I think this is wrong, but he believes that showing strength like this and punishing the Ukrainian people will discourage Western support. He believes that the West is weak, that our support will crumble if we see that Ukraine is helpless and losing, and we'll just cut our losses and walk away and give him Ukraine.

I think he's wrong. I think incidents like this fire up Western opinion.

And here's the thing, when this war started, no one expected, at least in the Ukraine, to be able to survive and resist and push back on the Russians. It would have been a fait accompli over in a couple or three weeks.

But as it's dragged on, as we've become more and more engaged in support, it's become more embedded in the fabric of Western diplomacy and U.S. global credibility. And this means Mr. Putin has got to understand that the conflict in Ukraine is coming closer and closer to touching U.S. vital national interests.

Whatever agreement was set up in the beginning about red lines, about not hurting Russia, about keeping NATO out of the war, Mr. Putin is causing so much damage. There's so much escalation potential here that he should understand he's moving into a very, very dangerous place.

SANCHEZ: General, what's your message to members of Congress who are hesitant to send more aid to Ukraine on the basis of there being allegations of corruption, on the basis of there being a different set of priorities for some of them? They're more interested in funding domestic projects, some of them argue. What would you say to them?

CLARK: Well, I'd say first that - that first of all, Ukraine is taking very strong measures to deal with the allegations of corruption. Secondly, as State Department has recently concluded, there is no evidence whatsoever that any U.S. military assistance has been diverted or gone anywhere but to the people who need it in Ukraine. And third, I would say that it's a major point of Russian disinformation that Ukraine isn't deserving of Western support because it's corrupt.

And I mean, imagine, coming - this coming from Moscow, but that's the way disinformation works in this case. And the fourth point would be to the members of Congress, it's in the vital interest of the United States, increasingly so, that we provide assistance to a democracy that wants to align with the West, that's fighting vicious anti- humanitarian aggression.

If we don't stop this Russian attack here, it will go elsewhere. We cannot trust Mr. Putin. He is untrustworthy. He has shown it time and time again. So this is a remarkable stand, courageous stand by the people of Ukraine.

We're fortunate it's not our U.S. soldiers in there. They deserve our support because they're fighting for us. And the U.S. Congress, all, every member should recognize this.

SANCHEZ: Gen. Wesley Clark, very much appreciate your perspective on these matters, thanks.

CLARK: Thank you.

BROWN: All right. Let's go ...

SANCHEZ: Of course, Pam?

BROWN: ... let's go back to Capitol Hill. Congressman Jim Jordan, who recently announced he's running for House Speaker, has spoken with former President Trump about his speakership bid. That's according to a CNN source.

[15:10:07]

Well, Trump has floated the idea of coming to the Capitol next week.

Let's go to CNN's Melanie Zanona, who joins us on Capitol Hill.

And you have new information about Jordan's pitch to House moderates. What can you tell us, Melanie?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, so moderate Republicans are going to be a key constituency in this speaker's race. And Congressman Jim Jordan, I'm told, just wrapped up a call with the Main Street Caucus. This is a group of business-minded members who are more center-right of the party.

And during this call, Jordan really pitched himself as a team player and someone who is best positioned to unite this fractured Republican Party. He also promised that he would protect moderates, that he would not put them in tough positions.

And he was also asked about the motion to vacate, that tool that was used to oust Kevin McCarthy as speaker. This group has actually been demanding that any candidate for speaker explain how what happened on Tuesday will never happen again. They want to reform that tool to make it harder for any single member to be able to call for a vote to remove the sitting speaker.

And during this call, Jordan said, it's going to be a conference decision, that they will need two 18 votes from Republicans in order to change those rules. But he sounded open to the idea of changing it if that is what Republicans ultimately decide to do. So you just get a sense of what his pitch is as he tries to win over these moderate members.

But the fact is, he could still have some problems winning over these members. This is a person who was a co-founder of the Freedom Caucus. He used to be quite a flamethrower in Congress. He used to not vote for spending bills or stopgap spending bills. So there's a lot of concern still among moderates about elevating him to the top spot as speaker.

And not to mention, there's a lot of emotions, raw emotions, frayed relationships, particularly with moderates, about the fact that their speaker was ousted. Jordan was asked about those eight Republicans who took down Kevin McCarthy, here's what he had to say.

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REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I disagree with what took place, but those guys are friends of mine and I think that's the message I've been talking to my colleagues about is who can bring the eight into the - on - part of the team - who can unite our team. I think I can do that. If I didn't think I could do that, I wouldn't run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: Now, Steve Scalise, the number two Republican who is also running for speaker, is also expected to address the Main Street Caucus later this afternoon. So bottom line, Pam, the battle for the moderates is on.

BROWN: It sure is. Melanie Zanona, thank you so much.

Let's bring in CNN's Kristen Holmes for more on former President Trump's attempts to get involved in the speaker race. So it's really interesting because former president, Trump, stayed out of everything when it came to the ouster of McCarthy. Now he wants to get engaged when it comes to who the new speaker will be, it appears.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pamela, I think that's really the most important part of all of this is that he said he didn't want to get weighed into the drama or at least advisers close to former president, Trump, said he didn't want to wade into the drama. But turns out he just didn't want to wade into the drama on McCarthy's behalf, because now we are hearing that he has floated this idea of going to Capitol Hill, that he would speak to Republicans, this fractured caucus, while they are trying to determine or consider a new speaker.

Now, we are told that some GOP lawmakers have floated this idea of Trump himself being an interim speaker and that Trump was intrigued by that. Now, sources that have been with Trump the last several days tell my colleague, Alayna Treene, that he's honored, that he's flattered by these floats of him being this interim speaker, but that it's not something that he is seriously considering, that he is solely focused on running for president.

But again, to keep this in mind, one, he's inserting himself into this story. It is clearly an effort, as Donald Trump likes to do, to make himself part of whatever the story is when it involves Republicans. But also, if you look at what happened with the speaker's race, with McCarthy being ousted, he did not get involved in any way, not even a single post on McCarthy's behalf. Now he's talking about showing up on the Capitol. Clearly, this was - there was a reason that he didn't get involved then.

BROWN: Yes, clearly.

Kristen Holmes, thanks so much.

All right. I'm going to talk more about this with Republican congressman, Kevin Kiley, of California.

Congressman, thanks for coming on.

So, Rep. Jim Jordan just spoke with Republicans on the Main Street Caucus, which you are a part of. What did you hear from him and will you support him? Do you have any reservations? Walk us through what your mindset is right now.

REP. KEVIN KILEY (R-CA): Well, I have the highest regard for the folks who have stepped up to run to be the next speaker. I've worked very closely with Congressman Jordan. He's the chair of the Judiciary Committee, which I'm also a part of. He is an extraordinary leader and I have the highest level of confidence that the caucus - the conference will be in very good hands and the House will be in very good hands with whoever comes out as the next speaker among those declared candidates.

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BROWN: All right. So who right now, though, do you - are you supporting Jim Jordan? What about Steve Scalise, who has also thrown his hat in the ring?

KILEY: Yes, I haven't come out in support of anyone. I'm still having conversations. And I - as I said, though, I think that we have great choices in front of us. If there's any silver lining to any of this, it's the fact that we have such tremendous people who are so widely respected, who have stepped up to run.

But the reality is that who the speaker of the House is isn't really a top-of-mind issue for most of my constituents and for most Americans. The things that are really top of mind are why are we paying over $6 for gas here in California, grocery prices, electricity prices that continue to squeeze family budgets, fentanyl taking more and more young lives in every community in this country, rising crime that's making people feel unsafe.

So the important thing is we need to get a new speaker, we need to unify and then we need to get back to addressing these challenges that Americans are facing. And so that's what's most frustrating about all of this to me, as it's been a bit of a distraction, a bit of a delay. We need to get through this and need to get back on track delivering results, (inaudible) ...

BROWN: Right, but I think you would agree it is a problem for your constituents if the House can't do its job and pass legislation that could directly impact them on those issues you just mentioned. And I want to talk about the former President Trump.

KILEY: That's ...

BROWN: I want to ask you about what Kristen Holmes, our reporter, just laid out, that he is considering coming to Capitol Hill to speak to your conference about the speaker fight. Do you think that's a good idea?

KILEY: I'm sorry. More perspectives are certainly fine. I mean, I think that this is ultimately something that's going to be decided by the conference. But back to your first point about not being able to move legislation, that's what is so frustrating about all of this. In fact, this is what was so frustrating the beginning of the year.

This is my first term, by the way. I hadn't even been sworn in, and it took us several days to even get sworn in and get started. And now, while this is still being litigated, we don't have the ability to move legislation. So to give you one example, I'm the author of a bill called the Press Act, which is of interest to journalists because it provides protections for freedom of the press and protects your ability not to have to reveal your sources. The co-lead is Democrat Jamie Raskin of Maryland. It's a bipartisan bill, passed the Judiciary Committee unanimously.

But while this is all going on, we can't move that legislation, even though it's teed up for a vote on the floor, which is why it's so important, again, that we get through this and we get back to the work of delivering results for the American people. So that bills like this or another bill that I have that's a bipartisan bill with Rep. Bonamici of Oregon to address the fentanyl crisis, to help to promote awareness and outreach in schools across the country.

This is legislation that will save lives, but it can't move while all of this is going on. And so I am very hopeful that whoever ends up being nominated by our conference next week will quickly be ratified by the House and then we'll get back to work.

BROWN: We shall see if that is indeed what happens.

I want to turn to Ukraine. We see this brutal attack on civilians as support for funding for Ukraine appears to be waning, especially among Republicans in the House. How important is it to you that the next speaker supports funding for Ukraine?

KILEY: Well, I have a tremendous Ukrainian-American community in my district and around the Sacramento area. This is an issue where there are a wide variety of views within our conference. I think there's quite a bit of agreement on the idea that we need to have a lot more oversight and accountability and a strategy for the funding that is there. But I'm not sure that any one issue is going to be determinative here as far as who the next speaker is. I think it's going to be just a broad judgment that each of us makes as to which person is in the best position to lead the House in tackling these huge challenges where there is so much dissatisfaction in this country.

So many Americans, overwhelming majority, believe the country is on the wrong track. And I was sent to D.C. by my constituents to be a check and a balance, to get the economy back on track to secure the border. And we're getting results, by the way.

The Biden administration has reversed course now on the border. I'm on the Judiciary Committee and we have been focusing like a laser on that issue. We've held field hearings at the border. We passed the Border Security Act. We brought in Secretary Mayorkas for an oversight hearing and it's getting results.

Now the administration is reversing course and putting in some at least modest border security measures.

BROWN: Right.

KILEY: So we're getting results. We're being that check and balance that the American people sent certainly me and many of us there to be. And we need to get back to doing that, because the country has a lot of issues and we don't have time to waste.

BROWN: And President Biden, it's interesting, he said that basically he had this money, his hands were tied and if he didn't use it for the border wall of these 20 miles, that it would go to waste. But then he ended up saying today that he doesn't actually think it'll make a difference. It seems like from what you're saying, you disagree with that.

But Congressman Kevin Kiley, I appreciate you coming on and offering your perspective. Thank you.

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KILEY: Oh, thanks for having me.

BROWN: Well, coming up, as the congressman just mentioned, President Biden is paving the way to build a border wall, even though he just said border walls don't work. How he is explaining that.

Plus, multiple industries are getting hit with strikes. Why unions are bargaining more and more?

And then later, there is no stopping the GOAT. How Simone Biles led the American team in breaking yet another record.

Those stories and more coming up right here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SANCHEZ: Border security is at the center of the ongoing fight for the speakership among House Republicans and it's at the top of the White House agenda today. As President Biden's senior cabinet members meet with the Mexican president, Biden has cleared the way for 20 new miles of border barriers in South Texas.

[15:30:06]

This despite making a promise during the 2020 campaign that he would not preside over any new border wall construction. Not one more foot, he said.

CNN's Kayla Tausche is live for us at the White House. Kayla, it appears to be a flip-flop, but the White House says it's more complicated than that.

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Boris, the White House is trying to make a very nuanced argument here saying that, in fact, the President tried to allocate those funds for something different and that Congress disallowed that to happen. Also saying that it was the Biden administration that sought to move forward with comprehensive immigration overhaul in Congress that prevented that from happening.

Even so, it does go against the campaign promise and the general spirit of the immigration policy that the Biden administration has promoted up until this point. And so earlier today, reporters asked President Biden to explain this decision and to say, in his words, whether he believes walls work. Here's his response.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: (Inaudible) one question on the border wall. The border wall, the money was appropriated for the border wall. I tried to get them to re-appropriate - to redirect that money. They didn't. They wouldn't. And in the meantime, there's nothing under the law other than they have to use the money for what was appropriate. I can't stop that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe the border wall works?

BIDEN: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAUSCHE: But the authorization was made in a filing with the Federal Register late last night, a six-page filing in which the Secretary of Homeland Security described, in his words, an acute and immediate need to prevent illegal entry at the southern border.

Earlier today, asked to defend that rationale for the authorization of this construction, the press secretary today said that she hadn't seen that filing. And Boris, it does include the waiving of more than two dozen federal laws to allow this construction to go forward. And it, of course, comes against the backdrop of those bitter funding fights on Capitol Hill, where Republicans have been pushing to restore some Trump-era immigration and border policy. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yes, just based on what DHS has put out there, it doesn't seem that the White House and DHS are seeing eye to eye on this specific issue.

Kayla Tausche, thank you so much. Pam?

BROWN: All right. Thanks, Boris.

We are joined now by CNN Political Director, David Chalian.

So, David, as is so often the case, you have what a candidate says on the campaign trail and then when they're in office, something different happens. And that really sums up what the situation is with Biden. Let's revisit what he said on the 2020 campaign trail.

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LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, NPR: Trump campaigned on build that wall, are you willing to tear that wall down?

BIDEN: No, I'm - there will not be another foot of wall constructed on my administration.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The president also said today that former presidents have said to him that they wish that they had built a wall. Do you recall President Obama ever saying that?

BIDEN: I don't know a single one. I can't think of a single one who said that.

We need border security, but that's not the border security we need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. So candidate Biden says no new wall. Now we learn today the White House is clearing the way for new wall construction. Yet President Biden says walls don't work. The DHS secretary says there is an acute need for the wall. How do you explain the mixed messages here?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, first of all, if you have to explain something as this has been appropriated and the money must be spent, you're already in a place that much of the country is not going to sort of tune into that message. Biden here is in a tough spot. He understands his approval ratings on border security and immigration are even lower than his overall approval ratings, Pamela, which you know are historically low for a president at this point in their presidency, so this is a very weak issue for him.

So not a terrible idea to have some border security piece of this, but, of course, his own base, the Democratic base wants to hear much more about the humanitarian aid being provided to migrants that are coming over the border, how they are being handled and some path forward to a comprehensive immigration reform plan, not just one focused on border security.

So he's caught here between two different points. And I think it's important to note how the politics on this have changed. First of all, take a look in a recent Quinnipiac University poll in the spring. You see 50 percent say they want to - they oppose building a border wall, 68 percent, Biden doesn't have border under control.

Well, okay, so Biden's not getting good ratings on this and yet half the people don't want a border wall. He's got a needle to thread here with his own party and with the broader general electorate.

BROWN: And meantime, as we know, Washington has been gridlocked for decades when it comes to this issue. But right now, Washington seems to be more polarized than ever, right. Do you see any path to some progress on this politically?

[15:30:01]

And the reality is, I mean, a lot of this falls on Congress, right? The President can only do so much as it comes to immigration.