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Israel At War With Hamas; Interview With Former Prime Minister Of Israel Ehud Barak; Currently, IDF Strikes On Lebanese Territory; Attacks In Israel Included Nine Americans Dead; Families Frantically Looking For Loved Ones That Hamas Abducted; 130 Hamas Targets Hit By Israel In The Last Few Hours. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired October 09, 2023 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

EHUD BARAK, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: Nowadays, with those -- there are certain extremist in the government which are damaging --

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST: The finance minister, the national security minister --

BARAK: Yes, yes. These two guys that think like -- they think of Americans, these two guys from the Proud Boys who were sent to 20 or 15 years in jail making one of them secretary of treasury, the other secretary of homeland security, they're totally irresponsible people. I think that the coalition -- the opposition would make it quite clear -- demand that they will not participate of running this war. They have some, yani, crazy ideas about --

ANDERSON: Is it Benny Gantz and Yair Lapid's likely will have said, we'll get into a unity government, that's important for the Israeli public, but we do not want to see those two characters involved?

BARAK: I think. It's my -- say, it's probably will happen. I think that basically they don't trust Netanyahu after all these last three years, no one trust him really. And I don't think that in front of the CNN, I have to discuss all this --

ANDERSON: OK. Let me just ghost this live picture. This is Gaza, 5:30 p.m. in the afternoon, and these are continuous multiple attacks by the Israeli -- Israel's Defense Forces pounding this small congested Gaza Strip at this point. As you sit here with me, Ehud, and you can see what we are seeing in front of you, what is going through your mind?

BARAK: No, it's necessary. Probably stronger attacks are necessary, but the -- will difference is there's a (INAUDIBLE) organization to -- organization to Hamas. They're the liberty coming to kill women and civilians, elderly people, babies, whatever. Here, there are some collateral damages, but I am sure that every neighborhood which is attacked got an early warning several hours ago to go out. And whoever is operating near a headquarter or any installation of Hamas should leave his place because it's under the risk of getting out of the blue sky or gray sky --

ANDERSON: The question is, where do they go? I mean, that's --

BARAK: -- to get a bomb (ph).

ANDERSON: -- that's -- for the Palestinian civilians, and of course we have to remember there are Israeli hostages in places around Gaza, that is what Hamas has said. These hostages have been placed, according to the military group, around Gaza. So, very, very difficult for the Israeli force to know where they may be, and of course Palestinian civilians.

Is this -- there will be questions asked about whether this is commensurate with the, sort of, attacks that we've seen from Hamas, this is a commensurate response. And the response from many here will be, you know, we've seen massacre -- we've seen a massacre on the Israeli side of the border?

BARAK: We do not pretend to do the same. We suffered. We are painful. We swallow it. We operate under the norms of advanced state. Everything -- every attack is going through certain current (ph) examination to an extent whether there was an early warning, and there is a real target there. But a lot of targets on very heavy infrastructure.

In fact, the Israeli government, in a way, in the last five years or more than five years has a policy of preferring -- especially the right of government of preferring the Hamas. They -- their explicit aim is to strengthen the Hamas in order to weaken the P.A., rather to do the opposite. To strengthen the P.A. and weaken the Hamas. And a lot of money was transferred to them. So, we built some of the responsibility for this kind of growing of Hamas.

ANDERSON: Surely there is, you know, an argument that says that what we are seeing now, many people say is an inflection point. Can we really go back to the, sort of, status quo? You know, we go through these conflicts and then there's a ceasefire, and then we lurch back to the same, sort of, to status quo of the Israelis doing business with Hamas and --

BARAK: Becky, I'm not sure we can go to the original status quo. There will be certain changes. That's life. It's never -- you know, the future and the past do not repeat itself, it -- but it rhymes. It resonates.

ANDERSON: It's good to have you. Thank you very much indeed for your perspective, Ehud Barak, former prime minister, former intelligence chief, former IDF leader, former defense minister here with perspective on what we are seeing as we look at pictures coming in, John, from Gaza at 5:34 in the afternoon. Intense bombardment by Israel's Defense Forces as they continue to strike those targets.

John.

[10:35:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: You can see the smoke rising up over Gaza. The Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak who had truly, probably thought he had seen everything until what he saw over the last three days in Israel.

Israel Defense Forces say their helicopters are currently striking inside of Lebanon, we are getting new reporting on that as Israel announces a complete siege of Gaza. Tanks headed to the border. Our special coverage continues right after this.

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SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: There is more breaking news we need to share with you this morning. The Israeli Defense Forces say helicopters are currently striking in Lebanese territory. Also, this morning, the military said that it had fired on what they're calling the armed suspects that were coming out of Lebanon into Israel.

[10:40:00]

Sirens are also ringing out again in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, those are rockets coming from Gaza, its Southern border.

Let's get back to Hadas Gold in Jerusalem for more on this. When you hear that there are helicopters that are striking parts of Lebanon after seeing militants coming over, according to the IDF, it makes one concern that we may be headed into some, sort of, regional war here. What is the latest?

HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: So, what we are understanding from the Israeli military is that earlier today, those sirens that we've been hearing from rockets coming from Gaza were also heard in the north, meaning that there was incoming from Southern Lebanon. And the Israeli military confirming that two mortars were launched towards Israel from Southern Lebanon.

They also reported that there were a number of armed suspects who had infiltrated Israeli territory from Lebanese territory, and that Israeli soldiers engaged with them. And that they are now also saying that a helicopter is striking in the area. We don't know whether it is still striking. This was a message sent from the Israeli military a bit ago, so it's possible they have stopped striking the area.

So far, we understand as this area is very much concentrated right on the Blue Line, right on the border between Israel and Southern Lebanon. But there is a major, major concern about the involvement of the Hezbollah militant group. Now, there have been skirmishes along the border in the past few months, very small things, usually about tense in the like with Hezbollah.

But if Hezbollah gets fully involved in this war, not only does it open up another front, it opens up another front with what's essentially the varsity team compared to Hamas in Gaza when it comes to the types of arms and missiles and rockets that Hezbollah has in its possession. They have a much more sophisticated arsenal than what Hamas has at the moment. So, that would obviously complicate the situation quite a bit. And not only, then also for the Israeli military happen to handle two fronts.

Now, there is the possibility that this will be attributed to Palestinian militant groups to Hamas in Southern Lebanon which does have a presence there, and that can -- can often give, sort of, the plausible deniability that it wasn't Hezbollah. We don't need to get them involved. But that just goes to show you how sensitive and how unpredictable and how potentially very volatile and explosive the situation is right now in the north.

SIDNER: Yes, and we should mention both Hezbollah and Hamas are backed by Iran. And so -- and whatever way you may say, they are involved in this even if it is tangentially as we watch this go forward. Hadas Gold, thank you so much for that latest reporting.

Again, there are helicopter that has struck inside of Lebanon after Lebanon sent over missiles. And according to the IDF, sent over a few people that were armed that they took out. That's where we are right now on the northern border to Israel.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: The United States State Department says at least nine Americans are among those killed in the terrorist attacks by Hamas. The State Department also says an unknown number of Americans were taken hostage. I want to play for you the Israeli Minister for Strategic Affairs Ron Dermer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON DERMER, ISRAELI MINISTER FOR STRATEGIC AFFAIRS: We don't have the exact number because we don't know exactly how many dead people who we are not in touch with. I think that will take several more hours to figure out the exact numbers but I think it's scores of hostages. I can tell you there's also American hostages as part of that number as well. I don't want to get into a specific number. But these are women, they're children, they're elderly, they're holocaust survivors. This is sick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Also, this morning, Israel's defense minister ordered a complete siege of Gaza. This is unfolding as we speak. Joining us now is CNN Military Analyst Colonel Cedric Leighton.

Colonel, thank you so much for jumping on with us. I want to start off where -- with what Hadas was talking about there. The IDF saying that helicopters currently striking in Lebanese territory. Also, after the IDF says, they've killed armed suspects, is how they described it, coming in from Lebanon. Why is this significant and important?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, what it could be, Kate, is the opening of a second front in the war. We don't know that yet, but there's a -- clearly the indications are that at the very least this was a probing action probably from Hezbollah, but we don't know that yet either.

But regardless, what we are looking at normally from a military standpoint is that when people cross the border like that, they are checking out to see what can be done and how far to get. In essence, they're reconnaissance mission. So, those reconnaissance missions may pre-stage something else that could be coming down the road, but we have not seen any other movement from Hezbollah yet, but that could be something that could happen in the next few hours or so.

[10:45:00]

BOLDUAN: Yes, this is -- which -- just also proves that this is a very delicate, very tenuous situation even after what we have already seen. We are seeing also big plumes of smoke in Gaza, as the IDF has just been bombarding Gaza right now in response to the -- what -- the -- to the Hamas terror attacks. What would a ground incursion though into Gaza look like?

LEIGHTON: Well, that would be a very complex operation, Kate. And what would happen would be they would have to go in at several points in -- along the border between Gaza and Israel. They would also have to be very careful because Gaza is a place when you can really get lost very, very quickly. They would have to coordinate with their air force, with the Israeli air force to, in essence, de-conflict operations.

Right now, it looks like what the Israelis are doing is they're softening up targets, using air power and artillery. What the next step would probably be -- would be that incursion if they want to go that far, and it looks like they are probably going to do that based on the types of equipment that is pulling up onto the area around the border. And that's the kind of thing that I think we can expect within the next, let's say, 24 to 48 hours.

BOLDUAN: Talk to me about how you -- effectively the complexities here. We're talking about trying -- the attempt to try to cripple Hamas while you potentially have, what, a hundred hostages in Gaza, an urban environment, this does not sound quick or easy in the slightest.

LEIGHTON: And that's really the problem. In order to extricate hostages and free them, you would really need to have a quick, a lightning quick operation. You had Former Prime Minister Barak, Ehud Barak, on. He was, of course, the guy behind the famous Entebbe Raid from 1976. And it would be that kind of an operation. The Israelis had to plan that very carefully. They will have to do the same kind of thing, multiplied by at least 10 times in order to find all of the hostages and get them out as safely as possible.

So, you have that going on on the one hand. On the other hand, you also need to, in essence, pacify the population and eliminate the leadership. So, you have, really, three different lines of attack that you have to undergo at this particular point in time. And the ability to do that would tax any kind of military force. And the Israeli force, of course, is under the IDF, who's under a great deal of pressure right now to not only perform well, but it also means that their intelligence elements are going to have to be really on top of their game to provide the tactical intelligence that is going to be necessary for every single aspect of such an operation.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And what we're looking at, everyone, as we're -- as you're speaking, Colonel, these are live pictures of what we're seeing happen in Gaza. Just plumes, big plumes of smoke, as you can see the bombardment continuing from the IDF. Talk to me about -- I mean, look, the question is, what is -- what does this mean in this moment, and what could this be a precursor to? Colonel, what do you see here?

LEIGHTON: Yes. So, what I'm looking at is a -- you know, it somewhat reminds me of the shock and awe phase of Operation Iraqi Freedom back in the 2003 for the second Gulf War. And what you see is all of these multiple attacks, they're hitting strategic targets, there are several things that are going on here. It looks as if they are trying to get into different nodes, perhaps cutting communications links, also perhaps going after leadership entities where they think they have Hamas people either working or living in those areas.

Of course, it's really difficult because the Hamas forces interspersed themselves within civilian population, and that very fact makes it really, really hard to find the people that you're looking for as opposed to innocent civilians. But what you're seeing is a softening up of the target, you were making it possible now --

BOLDUAN: Colonel, let me jump in just because the camera just moved here --

LEIGHTON: Yes.

BOLDUAN: I'm being told by the control room, what we're looking at here after this camera moved that we're looking at Ashkelon, Israel. That -- not into Gaza. I mean, we want to make sure that we have clarification from the control room if that's what we are looking at in this moment. But if that is what we're looking at, Colonel, continue.

LEIGHTON: Yes. So, if that's what we're looking at, if we're looking at an Israeli target, it looks like something was shot from Gaza, from Hamas into Israel. And, you know, if this is in fact an Israeli target, then it looks as if the Iron Dome system was overtaxed again in terms of being able to respond to this.

[10:50:00]

So, what you -- what we're probably seeing is a force in the form of Hamas that is fighting back against the Israelis and trying to make it very difficult for them to advance. So, this could be a very ugly situation that's developing right now, Kate. And what we're seeing is multiple efforts, multiple axis of attack coming from both sides. So, it's going to be a very complicated picture as we move forward and try to figure out exactly which side is doing what and how they're doing it.

BOLDUAN: And that's exactly right. Yes, that's exactly right, Colonel. We're trying -- we're continuing to get some more word and it's along the Gaza -- the Israel-Gaza border, unclear exactly where it's landing, however. We're going to -- before we report more on that, we're going to make sure we can get more reporting before we do.

I'm also though seeing, Colonel, just coming in, the IDF saying that it has attacked 130 Hamas targets in Gaza with airstrikes in just the last three hours, that's according to a statement that we just -- that has just come out, using dozens of planes, it says.

LEIGHTON: Yes, that's a very heavy air campaign for this kind of a target. You know, the kind of air campaign that we had in Iraqi Freedom had a larger number of aircraft compared to that but we also dealt with a much larger surface area when we did that -- conducted that operation.

So, what is happening right here is a very concentrated attack. The Israelis have basically picked a whole series of targets, apparently 130 of them, and those targets are ones that they think will, in essence, either decapitate Hamas or coerce Hamas to do something that will help the Israelis move forward in this.

This is going to be, you know, a bit of a slog here. And I think, Kate, what you're looking at is a situation where there is going to be a lot of unknowns when it comes to this. We're going to see some things happening that we don't expect. We're going to see some things happening that, you know, would be in line with the military operation of this type. But there will also a lot of collateral damage.

BOLDUAN: That's for sure. Stick with me, Colonel. I want to continue to look at these live pictures. We're back now looking live into Gaza. We talked about the 130 Hamas targets that Israel says that they have attacked in the last three hours. Also just putting in perspective, also the 4,000 plus rockets that were fired by Hamas since Saturday, give me some perspective on that.

LEIGHTON: Yes, so 130 targets compared to 4,000 rockets, that seems like a large disparity in numbers. We have to keep in mind that the rockets that Hamas sent over into Israel, most of them are fairly primitive, you know, kind of, built in garages type contraptions that have a very, very short range. But in some ways, that's an advantage because it makes it a lot harder for the Israeli defense systems like the Iron Dome to detect what these rockets are actually going for, which targets they are trying to hit, that also impacts their ability to go after them.

When it comes to the Israelis and what they are doing in Gaza, it is a far more precise effort against Hamas because they are using more modern weapon systems, you know, the types of aircraft that they're using would include F-15s, F-16s, possibly F-35s as well because the Israeli Defense Forces have all three types of aircrafts, and they're modified especially for Israeli use. So, they have different variant that they use compared to what we use in the U.S. Air Force.

But what they're really opting for here is something that will allow them to coordinate with their forces. And I -- you know, this does look absolutely like a softening up of the target, you know, to use that term. And what that means is it's supposed to make it easier for the ground forces to come in and do what they need to do. The -- you know, the -- if they are successful or not, that will depend on many, many factors. And there's always a variance between what happens with air power and what you really see on the ground. So, that becomes a difficult thing for the ground forces to do.

BOLDUAN: Add into this conversation now as we continue to look at these live pictures over Gaza, that the United States has announced it is sending carrier battle group to the Eastern Mediterranean. What's the point? What's impact? Talk to me about that.

LEIGHTON: Yes, Kate. So, when you bring in a carrier battle group like the USS Gerald R. Ford, which is the aircraft carrier that is moving into the Easter Mediterranean at the president's direction, the desire here is to show the flag. It's basically a force projection mechanism.

[10:55:00]

It allows the United States to be present in areas of crisis, and the idea is to tamp down tensions, to prevent this from getting out of hand by instituting combat air patrols, by doing things like that. And what that means is our aircraft could very well be flying and could prevent other aircraft from getting into an area or expanding the combat zone.

So, when that happens, that's more effective when you're dealing with two state actors. But in this particular case, we are dealing with a state actor in the form of Israel, and a terrorist group in the form of Hamas, which in some ways is acting like a state because they control Gaza. But they don't have the military forces that a normal state like, let's say Egypt or Jordan or even Lebanon would have.

And that complicates things because Hamas is going to go low-tech. So, the efficacy of deploying an aircraft carrier into this kind of environment is something that remains to be seen. It can be effective, but we also have to be very cognizant of possible unconventional threats against the carrier battle group as it moves into the Eastern Mediterranean area off of Gaza and off of Israel.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Colonel Leighton, thank you as always. Thanks for walking us through what we're watching play out live. Thank you.

BERMAN: We do have some breaking news here. Israel Defense Forces just posted on social media that they are instructing people near the Israel-Lebanon border to remain in their homes, that's the other end the country that we're looking at right. These continue to be live pictures inside Gaza. We just did here from Israel Defense Forces. They have conducted what they called 130 strikes. 130 targets in the last three hours. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Large plumes of smoke. I cannot stress enough. There is activity now at both ends of Israel. Inside Gaza now, these airstrikes from Israel Defense Forces, 130 at least in the last three hour. And just getting word from the IDF instructing Israeli civilians near the Lebanon -- Israel-Lebanon border to remain in their homes.

Obviously, a lot of developing break news. We're going to have much more. Stay with us.

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