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Rockets Fired From Gaza As Israeli Troops Mass Near Border; Israeli Airstrikes Bombard Gaza After Hamas Attacks; Family Abducted From Kibbutz. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired October 11, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Events are moving on the ground here in Israel quickly. The nation, of course, preparing for war, a nation at war already. Positioning hundreds of thousands of soldiers near the border with Gaza. In the five days since Hamas's terror attack, Israel and Gaza are now each reporting over 1,000 deaths. Officials are urgently trying to negotiate ways to get civilians out of areas likely to be hit hard during any kind of ground operations. A senior Israeli official tells CNN that talks are on to try to allow U.S. citizens who are in Gaza and Palestinian civilians to be able to leave the Gaza Strip into Egypt. That's something Egypt has always resisted in past years ahead of a possible Israeli ground invasion.

And then, of course, there are the hostages. Up to 150 people believed to have been captured by Hamas and other groups like Islamic Jihad, including an unknown number of Americans.

Sources tell CNN that the nation of Qatar has been mediating in talks with Hamas to try to release women and children that have been kidnapped. America's top U.S. hostage official is accompanying the Secretary of State as he leaves for Israel. So there's a lot of moving parts to this.

Joining me right now is Daniel Flesch, a former spokesperson at Israel's mission to the United Nations. Daniel, thanks for being with us. You've said that Iran may have wanted to poison the developing normal relationship between Israel and Saudi Arabia. I've talked to other people, Thomas Friedman and others, about that. Can you talk about why any potential deal with Saudi Arabia would be so threatening to Iran?

DANIEL FLESCH, FORMER SPOKESMAN, ISRAEL'S MISSION TO THE UN: Well, certainly Anderson. So a deal will be threatening to Iran because Saudi Israeli normalization efforts would signal as paradigm shift and change in the Middle East. It would effectively end the 70 plus year Arab/Israeli War, Arab War on Israel. The Abraham Accords from a couple of years ago were only approved because Saudi Arabia gave sanction to them. It's the peace relationships between Israel, the UAE and Bahrain, and clearly the great white whale for Israel and the Middle East is Saudi Arabia.

[15:35:00] So the question is being asked, why did Hamas attack Israel today? Or last -- this past weekend? Why is it happening now? It's because last month, for example, at the UN General Assembly, Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, announced publicly that the peace negotiations or normalization talks are going positively. So Iran fears a new Saudi/Israeli rapprochement and they are doing everything they can to interrupt that.

COOPER: The White House, just as everyone knows, unfroze $6 billion to Iran in order to get Americans who are being held hostage in Iran back. There is now concern -- though the White House denies it -- that Iran was directly involved in these attacks. The White House has said that there's no evidence yet of a smoking gun at this stage.

But certainly blames Iran broadly for their support of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. There's a lot of questions. Jake Sullivan was peppered with questions yesterday about is the White House going to rethink the unfreezing of those 6 billion? They say none of it's been spent. Do you think they should and what impact might that have on events?

FLESCH: Well, certainly Iran has had a hand. Well, there's no smoking gun found yet. Iran has had a hand and orchestrated this entire event because Hamas is a wholly owned subsidiary of Iran. Similarly with Hezbollah in the north. So even if Iran did not give the order to Hamas. It's been providing funding for providing munitions, providing training, et cetera. So whether relates to the $6 billion, that's only a small drop in the 10s of billions of dollars that Iran has recouped throughout this administration from oil exports and from other measures and means.

So if the administration were able to stop the transfer the $6 billion, that's phenomenal, but does not change the fact that Iran, for the last couple of years, has felt incredibly emboldened in the region. And so anything going forward needs to realize that Iran again, even if it did not directly order Hamas to initiate the attack, the atrocious attacks on Israeli civilians, Americans to mind you from this weekend, it certainly has been instrumental in key in planning it.

COOPER: If Egypt was to allow not only American citizens in Gaza -- who are currently in Gaza living there with family, whatever it may be -- and a certain number of civilians in Gaza to leave and to cross over into Egypt. From a military standpoint, I assume that would actually help Israel to have fewer civilians on the ground in Gaza itself during any kind of ground operation. But what would that look like? I mean, do you think that is logistically possible because there are a lot of people in Gaza who would like to leave Gaza?

FLESCH: Well, people forget that you point out though, Gaza has two borders, one with Israel and another one with Egypt. So there's no reason why, for example, the Egyptians shouldn't be allowing Gazans to leave. And that's a different policy issue on their end. But it's not very difficult to get from areas of the Gaza Strip to Egypt. And certainly, you know, whenever there's a war, it'd be great if the wars were conducted in isolated rural environments. But it's not going to be the case and particularly not here because Hamas is embedded among its civilian population.

We can't forget Hamas perfected the use of human shields. And it will want to use every civilian they can to retard the advance of the, you know, of the Israeli Defense Forces and to make a PR campaign of the offensive that's to come. So certainly any civilians able to get out of Gaza through Egypt should be making their way there. But ultimately, whatever happens to the population in Gaza Strip is a responsibility of Hamas.

COOPER: Yes, unfortunately it doesn't seem they care much about that they have built. Obviously, this network of tunnels which could be used as bomb shelters for civilians, but it's not. It's used by Hamas militants to move weapons and to protect themselves. Daniel, Flesch appreciate your time tonight.

Israel's Defense Ministry says that the first shipment of U.S. munitions since the Hamas attacks has arrived as troops prepare on the ground here for what is to come. More on the challenges of urban warfare ahead.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Israeli air strikes are hammering Gaza right now as the IDF has mobilized roughly 300,000 troops and a ground operation into Gaza appears to be coming soon. The first shipment of advanced munitions from the U.S. arrived in Israel today -- you see that video there.

Let's discuss with Major John Spencer. He's an army veteran and chair of urban warfare studies at West Point. He's also the co-author of "Understanding Urban Warfare." Sir, thank you so much for being with us. Among the challenges you say that the IDF could face in Gaza as we take a look at some drone footage from that area. You mentioned rockets, drones, tunnels, even civilian human shields. What's your concern about a ground operation there? How do the Israelis combat all of that?

MAJ. JOHN SPENCER, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, I mean, have thought through a lot of that and there's lots of ways, especially the human shield, right? That's the, that's the big giant concern of the operation in any of the urban areas in Gaza. But the idea know how to tell the civilians to leave. They have already issued videos, photos, text. But it's hard because Hamas also is very known in all past operations to keep those civilians in those buildings, to keep them on the streets and then air their deaths as a pursuit of their objectives.

SANCHEZ: Major, I do want to show our viewers some video of the tanks that are being amassed by Israel.

[15:45:00]

Given the dense terrain in Gaza, the fact that it is a very urban setting, are vehicles like these usable? What's the most effective weaponry there? SPENCER: Vehicles like those are vital to entering a dense urban area

that is defended by, you know, this kind of enemy force. You have to be able to take the first shot, so they'll lead with bulldozers, follow with the tank that can shoot back at a concrete building. The tank is like one of the most vital pieces of equipment you need in a fight like this, a contested urban environment.

SANCHEZ: And how about the capabilities that Hamas has? Do they have the ammunition, the air power to stop Israel?

SPENCER: No, not at all. I mean, there's no way around it. This will be a costly operation if executed on all sides, on the IDF, on collateral damage. But no, that the Hamas doesn't have, they haven't -- they don't even have a phase defensive line like I ISIS did in the Battle of Mosul. But they can make it very costly on the IDF through anti-tank guided munitions, rockets, all those things that -- house bombs, things like that. But they can't stop it.

COOPER: Major, I wanted to get your thoughts on the potential for this to be a multi-front conflict for Israel. Because we've gotten reports that there was some Hezbollah activity here in the border with Lebanon. There are obviously a lot of groups in Syria that are anti- Israel. You've got the Golan Heights and the West Bank here and then the focus being Gaza. Could all of that stretch the IDF thin?

SPENCER: Absolutely, it could. I mean, that's the concern. They're massing, like you said, 300,000 reserves. Really, if you add the active duty that's 400,000 soldiers. An operation into Gaza will take 100 plus over that thousand forces actually in the fight. So yes, a different front, a second front, a third front. Would call it a stretch the idea thin. It would be really challenging and that's why this is a very sensitive situation. It does look like Israel plans to execute the Gaza mission, but it'll be trying to keep that second front and the third front from opening for sure.

COOPER: There are also questions about how Israel might be able to eliminate the leadership of Hamas, one of the stated goals from officials in Israel, partly because they're a series of tunnels through Gaza. There are bunkers. There's also the issue that some of the Hamas leadership may have fled Gaza altogether. They may be in Egypt. Is there any scenario you think in Israel's pursuit of Hamas leadership in which it doesn't lead to a drawn-out military presence for Israel and Gaza?

SPENCER: That's a tough one. And you're right, there are hundreds of miles, not just a few. Hundreds of miles of tunnels underneath Gaza in the urban environments in Gaza. That poses a huge military challenge. But you're right, it also allows the Hamas leadership, if they're even still there, to be able to hide, escape and to contain them would be really hard.

But of those objectives that IDF has said that they want to accomplish, it's also about removing the military capability, which is a very bold objective they haven't tried before, which you have to go in and clear urban terrain to do that. COOPER: Major John Spencer, thanks so much for sharing your

perspective with us. Our live coverage from Israel continues after a short break.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Early Saturday morning, very close to the Gaza border, a kibbutz farm community that was home to some 300 Israelis called Nir Oz was attacked by Hamas. The video shows gunmen racing toward it, and you can also see smoke rising from the kibbutz in the distance. It's still not clear how many people living in Nir Oz, were murdered or wounded or kidnapped. But a cameraman from Gaza uploaded a video that he made of the kidnapping of a woman named Shiri Bibas and her two little boys, a three-year-old Ariel and a nine-month-old Kfir. And we want to warn you that the video you're about to see is disturbing.

That's her clutch -- Shiri, clutching those two little boys. I met with Shiri's cousin, whose name is Yifat Zailer yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

YIFAT ZAILER, FAMILY MEMBERS KIDNAPPED BY HAMAS: Every hour, things get clearer and more horrific. It's something that we can't really understand. A nightmare. A nightmare.

COOPER (voice-over): Yifat is searching for any information about her cousin, Shiri, her kids, and the rest of her family.

COOPER: When did you realize something had happened?

ZAILER: Saturday morning around 10 o'clock we lost connection with my cousin.

COOPER (voice-over): It wasn't until she saw this video Saturday that Yifat knew Shiri and her kids had likely been taken hostage.

ZAILER: I can see the horror in their face. I think they might have been in a state of shock. They were still dizzy and not understanding what's going on around them.

[15:55:03]

This video is horrible, but it's the only proof of life we have. Other families don't have that. It gives me something to hold on to.

COOPER (voice-over): Shiri lives with her husband, Yarden and their two children.

COOPER: Have you had any word about her husband?

ZAILER: Nothing. Nothing. We don't know.

COOPER (voice-over): Also, missing is Yifat's uncle and aunt, Yossi and Margit Silberman (ph). ZAILER: My aunt has Parkinson's disease. Without her medications, her body stiffens. We're a small family and half of them are kidnapped.

COOPER: Half of your family?

ZAILER: Yes. This is it. I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe this is our lives now.

COOPER (voice-over): Yifat has children of her own but can't stop thinking about Shiri's kids, Ariel and Kfir.

ZAILER: I want to know that they are being fed, if their diaper was changed. If he still got his formula in his bottle, something to eat.

COOPER: They need formula. They need everything.

ZAILER: We need a sign of life.

COOPER: I'm so sorry.

ZAILER: The only thing that helps me be sane right now is sitting here with you and showing their faces and telling their story. I want my family back, please. I want my family back. I try to be strong and speak clearly, but I'm devastated. I'm just saying, I don't know what else to do. We need institutions from the world. We need some to take care of those captive people, civilians. I'm at loss of words, really. And every hour and every day it's getting worse. We know that the first days are the most important.

I want my family. Is there any chance they're watching this. I want them to know that we love them and we're doing everything we can to get them. I want them to be strong and then we are strong. We want this to end in the best way possible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (on camera): Hours after we did that interview, you Yifat sent us this picture that the family just found online. It shows Shiri's husband, Yarden, with blood on his head and his hands, but alive and seemingly in captivity. That is the first proof of life the family has gotten in more than three -- the four days now since he went missing.

That's it for us. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right after this short break. We'll have more from Israel later today.