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Blinken Meets with Netanyahu in Israel; More than 2,000 People Killed in Israel and Gaza; Israeli Reservists Amassed near Gaza Border; Rep. Mike Lawler (R-NY) is Interviewed about Congress. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 12, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:57]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan, here with John Berman and Sara Sidner. Thank you so much for being with us.

We are following more breaking news out of Israel and the buildup to the next stage as the IDF describes it.

You're looking -- we're showing you some pictures right here from moments ago as Israel continues its large-scale strikes in Gaza today.

U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken is on the ground in Israel right now and bringing with him a powerful message of totally support for Israel against the terror of Hamas, even saying Hamas brings to mind the worst of ISIS.

Blinken confirmed also that there is now at least 25 Americans that have been killed. He says the Biden administration is working closely with Israel to locate and rescue the more than 100 hostages taken by Hamas.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, on that front, Blinken and the U.S. deputy special envoy for hostage affairs met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as Israeli authorities say they believe the hostages are likely being held underground in Gaza.

Blinken had this message for Israel and the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: The message that I bring to Israel is this. You may be strong enough on your own to defend yourself, but as long as America exists, you will never, ever have to. We continue working closely with Israel to secure the release of the men, women, children, elderly people taken hostage by Hamas. We're pursuing intensive diplomacy throughout the region to prevent the conflict from spreading. And I'll be doing that over the course of my trip.

There is no excuse. There is no justification for these atrocities. You heard the prime minister say it, this is -- this must be a moment for moral clarity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Israel is amassing ground forces just outside Gaza. A short time ago our team saw Israeli howitzers firing into Gaza. And a senior Israeli official declared that electricity, water and fuel will not be restored to Gaza until all the hostages are released.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: In Gaza, the humanitarian crisis is growing more dire hour by hour. At least 1,300 people there have been killed, more than 300,000 are now displaced. More than half a million men, women and children are without access to water. Parents now sifting through rubble just to find food scraps because that has also been blockaded. And with the power cut off, generators will soon run out of fuel, those that are still running now. The international committee of the Red Cross is warning hospitals will soon become morgues because of the blockade.

We begin with CNN's Becky Anderson, who is live for us in Tel Aviv.

Becky.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Ye, the secretary of state, Antony Blinken, and Benjamin Netanyahu really standing shoulder to shoulder today. The U.S. secretary of state pledging total support for Israel and saying, and I quote here, "as long as America exist, Israel will never stand alone in defending itself."

This is what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: President Biden was absolutely correct in calling this sheer evil. Hamas is ISIS. And just as ISIS was crushed, so too will Hamas be crushed. And Hamas should be treated exactly the way ISIS was treated. They should be spit out from the community of nations. No leader should meet them. No country should harbor them. And those that do should be sanctioned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:05:05]

ANDERSON: So, what happens next is the big question. Where does this war go next. And what sort of price will be paid by the hostages, by the Israelis, and, of course, by the citizens of Gaza.

President Herzog also spoke earlier on today. I was at a press conference where he addressed the media. He gave no indication of what Israel's plans are for a ground incursion. Only suggesting, and I quote him here, "this will be a long and drawn out campaign against Hamas."

Now, the U.S. has warned Israel that they must abide by the rules of war. And there has been much concern about the possibility of a policy of collective punishment on the citizens of Gaza, deplored just today in a statement by the United Nations. And it was a very frustrated President Herzog who took questions about that. He is clearly concerned about the possibility of international support waning the higher the death toll goes.

But he talks about this as a position of war, though absolutely suggesting and saying -- describing what Israel will do as abiding by the rules of war, but he described this as a war and as a complete tragedy. So, I think what we are seeing here build is Secretary of State Antony Blinken coming in absolutely pledging total support for Israel here, but they are aware here in Israel of the potential for real concern about what happens next, the effect on civilians, and how that might affect international support for the next phase of this conflict.

BERMAN: Becky Anderson in Tel Aviv.

Becky, thank you very much.

Let's get closer to the front lines right now. Let's go down to Ashdod, on the Israeli coast. Our Jeremy Diamond is there.

We can show people on a map where Ashdod is. It's just north of Ashkelon, along the Mediterranean there.

Jeremy, tell us what you are seeing and the situation as Israeli troops mass closer to the border.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, from where we are, John, what we've been hearing all morning is the steady rumble of air strikes, Israeli air strikes hitting Gaza, which is right behind me, effectively. You have the city of Ashkelon, just south of me. And just south of that is indeed the Gaza Strip.

I want to pick up on some of what we heard from Secretary of State Blinken and the Israeli prime minister, Netanyahu, because I think it's really important to understand why they are making the emotional appeal that they are making in talking about the barbarity of Hamas' terrorist attacks and in describing some of the - some of the gruesome scenes that have been discovered in recent days in those Israeli communities that were infiltrated by these Hamas terrorists.

And the reason why is that they are essentially laying the groundwork for what is to come. They are explaining the rational for why - for what we are going to see in the next phase of this Israeli military campaign. And that's because the next phase of the campaign, whether it is a ground invasion, whether it is much more severe air strikes on Gaza, it is going to result -- in particular if it is a ground invasion, in additional casualties, both Israeli troops, as well as Palestinians inside of Gaza.

We know the history of conflicts inside of Gaza is that there are heavy civilian casualties. And so what we are hearing here is a rational for the cost - for the cost both in terms of military, as well as civilian casualties that will undoubtedly result from this next phase of the campaign.

What we also heard from Netanyahu is really also just echoing the sentiment of the Israeli public, including of those reservists, more than 300,000 of which have now been called up in one of the largest mobilizations in this country's history.

I spoke with some of those reservists yesterday about why this call up feels different.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALON KAMIL, IDF RESERVIST: A person here (ph) has lost someone. Every person.

MICHAEL, IDF RESERVIST: Been in Amsterdam till - till Wednesday morning, till Monday morning I came here, you know, to enlist in the army to fight those bastards (ph).

DIAMOND: It's very emotional moments.

LEVI, IDF RESERVIST: Very emotional moments, yes. When you see children die and kidnapping, it's -- it's like an animal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And you can hear the emotion in the voices of all of those reservists as they were answering either their call up or some of them, frankly, didn't even get orders but they started showing up to bases all across Israel where they will receive additional training before gearing up for whatever comes next.

[09:10:17]

We still do not have an official order for an invasion here, but the signs of preparations for a potential invasion are all around when you drive up and down the Gaza Strip on the Israeli side. We have seen formations of artillery guns, like where Nic Robertson was today. We have seen tanks, armored personnel carriers, driving up and down. Yesterday we were standing in a field where there were about two dozen armored personnel carriers facing directly in the direction of Gaza, just six miles away.

BOLDUAN: And, Jeremy, in the -- also part of the immediate and urgent decision making and planning that is happening now is how to locate and how to recover and rescue the 100, 150 hostages that are believed to be in Gaza. We heard Tony Blinken say -- the words he used in talking about it were terror tunnels is how Tony Blinken talked about it today when he was standing next to Netanyahu.

DIAMOND: Yes.

BOLDUAN: And we also heard from the IDF. They believe, at least reason dictates, tell us more, that the hostages are likely in -- being held in those terror tunnels.

DIAMOND: Yes, that's right. And I also think what's significant is that we heard Tony Blinken talking about the coordination between the United States and Israel on this very issue and the support, both intelligence, surveillance, but also, most notably perhaps, special operations support. And that suggests that there is at least some discussion of some kind of special operations mission to try and rescue these hostages, if indeed they can identify exactly where they are being held. That would be an extremely risky mission, of course.

But what we also know is that there are no current active negotiations really with Hamas for the release of those hostages. And that's largely because Israel and Hamas are in completely different places about what the conditions would be for the release of those hostages. We have seen Israeli has said that no food, water, or electricity will be -- or fuel will be going into Gaza until those hostages are released. And we know that in the past, when Hamas has held hostages or captives in terms of soldiers, Gilad Shalit, for example, when he was held, an Israeli soldier, he was released for 1,000 Palestinian prisoners who were held in Israeli prisons, including some of whom were responsible for terrorist attacks that killed Israeli civilians.

So, there is a total mismatch, of course, of where those negotiations could even begin. And there's also, no doubt, weighing on the minds of Israeli leaders the fact that a ground invasion could potentially result in the deaths of some of those hostages. So, a lot of considerations, but very notable that the United States and Israel are working closely on that issue.

SIDNER: Yes, Jeremy Diamond, we should also note that Gilad Shalit, it took five and a half years for him to be freed by Hamas. So, a very, very long time.

Thank you to you there in Ashdod and to Becky Anderson in Tel Aviv.

Send it over to John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now is CNN military analyst, retired Lieutenant General Mark Herling, who has spent a lot of time in Israel.

And, General, one of the questions we have here is, what would a ground invasion of Gaza, and I have a map up here of Gaza, what would that look like? Well, there is some history here. In 2014 there was a 50-day conflict after Hamas kidnapped three Israeli teens in the West Bank. There was 50 days of fighting, including aerial bombardment. But also a ground incursion into Gaza, including fighting right here near Gaza City.

What have we seen in the past and how would that instruct what happens now?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, John, it's a great intro, you citing the operation, Protective Edge, which took place in 2014. As you said, it took 50 days. And during that period, Israel mobilized 75,000 soldiers. Compare that to what they're mobilizing today.

In that operation, the IDF attacked on three axis, two in the north, one - well, two - two units in the north, one in the center and one in the south of Gaza. It was three divisions worth of troops that went in. It was a joint operation, as you said, air, land and sea. Israel lost 66 soldiers during that operation and six civilians. And the U.N. estimated that the Palestinians lost 2,100 dead.

Now, that was an estimate. We've already seen those kinds of losses in this campaign already and a ground invasion hasn't even started.

And, again, I'll point out, we're talking about 2014.

[09:15:01]

That was a decade ago. And since that time, Hamas has basically been left alone inside of Gaza. You can see they've prepared the operation. I think they are more tactically savvy, although they still are a terrorist group. So, you can bet, as Jeremy was just saying, those underground tunnels that were so ubiquitous during the 2014 war and really caused some problems to the Israelis are going to be much more immense and many more miles of them under ground. They are going to be fighting from under ground and they probably had a very good plan, since there were indicators that they were taking hostages for a purpose. They have a very good plan of putting them in locations that could be booby trapped, that could be awaiting the Israeli forces.

And what I'd say, having fought in urban operations, you know, philosophers over the years have said, war is hell. Well, fighting in an urban terrain is war is hell in your worst nightmare. Everything about fighting in an urban environment, especially a place like Gaza, has real challenges to the invading force.

BERMAN: And let me explain a little bit more of why. You can see a population density map of Gaza. And this is 20 - this is where Gaza City is in this stretch right here, 25,000 people per square mile. What does that compare to? Well, Los Angeles, you can see here, is 5,000 people, almost 6,000 people per square mile. But, you know, three or four times more dense than Los Angeles.

So, what kind of challenges does that pose for the Israelis?

HERTLING: You know, John, I've been watching the news reports on various cable channels. And those who have never fought in an urban terrain will talk about the anti-tank missiles that Hamas has, the rockets that they have, the ability to booby trap and to have rubble in the area, which will prevent tanks and personnel carriers moving. Those are all the tactical issues.

But what I will tell you, when you're fighting in an urban terrain, everything is compounded by rubble in the streets, by the inability to look around corners, the so-called 90 degree fight, the inability to communicate, the challenges with logistics getting into your troop. If Israel is planning a 50-day or more operation, they have to resupply these x-amount of thousands of soldiers they're going to send into Gaza. And that's difficult when your supply lines are interdicted by civilians.

In addition to that, you have the operational considerations of, number one, the entire world is watching. And the Israeli force is doing their very best to live up to the laws of land warfare. But you have a population of, as you said, 2.2 million citizens, the most of which are not Palestine or Hamas fighters, they're mostly trying to get out of the way, and that's very difficult. Everything about combat in the cities is hard.

And one more thing I'd add, John. The majority of the - the reservists that we're - that we're discussing with your reporters on the scene, those individuals were probably in their early teens during the last Hamas fight. So, this is all new to them. They're going to have a force going in that will have very few people who are familiar with the environment of Hamas. And any time you send new recruits into combat, it's more challenging.

BERMAN: Yes, not to mention the very scale here is unprecedented and there are 100 to 150 hostages.

General Mark Hertling, thank you so much. Always an education.

Kate. Sara.

BOLDUAN: You know, John, I was just looking - I was thinking with that conversation you were just having with Hertling. Mike McCaul, he has said recently about the effort that's going to be needed going forward to get these hostages out. The way he described it to reporters is, we've obviously got special forces who are good at this, hostage rescue teams, but it's going to be very difficult going house to house, like Fallujah in 2005, when they used them as human shields. Just putting a fine point on exactly what you guys are talking about.

BERMAN: Yes, you know, it is the population density here is so much more than that type of situation. You're also talking about an area that is much more built up certainly than Fallujah ever was. A very different situation, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yes, Mark Hertling's perspective was great on that.

Let's turn to this right now.

As we know, what started as a terror attack has sparked a now growing humanitarian crisis on both sides of the border. In both Israel and Gaza. A warning as we talk through this, these images are disturbing.

Right now we know air strikes continue from Israel into Gaza. Large scale strikes. Israel trying to target Hamas, yet we have seen innocent Palestinians are getting caught in the middle. I'm going to show you, this is after one Israeli air strike in Gaza. We have images of men rushing to try to pull someone from the rubble and loading that person on a stretcher.

[09:20:00]

And then this happens.

The women's anguish of it all, their pain, so clearly evident.

Hospitals in Gaza reporting that they are overwhelmed Fears that hospitals are going to become morgues. Children in Gaza also being caught and getting caught in the middle of all of this.

This young little girl, in a Gaza hospital, crying. Someone trying to comfort her. Dried blood appearing on her. And you can see the very clear injuries on the young children in these hospital beds.

Even without the air strikes, the search for resources is becoming harder and more scarce in Gaza. This man, you see, he was searching through the rubble for his belongings and also for food. He has said that he was trying to find leftover lentils and rice because he doesn't know how he's going to provide food for his children right now.

We are also getting a clearer picture of the horror of the Hamas attacks in Israel. One man who survived the assault on the music festival spoke to CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAHAR BEN-SELA, SURVIVED HAMAS ATTACK ON MUSIC FESTIVAL IN ISRAEL: It was an animal slaughter. It's like they take all the animals to one place and shoot them all. And then they -- the policemen got shot and they run away. And they killed one of the terrorists, but got shot and runaway. I found him on (INAUDIBLE) the policeman. One second, sorry. Then they drop the first grenade. Drop it inside. It was an exploding the entrance (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Yes, and then there is this from the kibbutz Kafa'aza (ph), where the IDF says women, children, toddlers, the elderly, were brutally butchered. This is an open safe room in a home there. Bullet holes riddling the walls.

Outside, body bags lined up. Israeli soldiers preparing to move those who were murdered. You can see a boot sticking out of one of the body bags.

And this, we want to show you, is what has happened in the Israeli city of Ashkelon, people running for their lives as air - as the sirens ring out warning of incoming rocket fire from Gaza. A rocket hit a supermarket there. We do not know if anyone was injured or killed in that attack. But very clearly the common -- what you see on that man's face and you see so many other places is just the terror inflicted on so many people.

Again, what started as a terror attack by Hamas, a brutal, horrific terror attack, is now threatening to become a growing humanitarian crisis on both sides of the border.

SIDNER: All right, coming up, the White House is faced with the dilemma on how to respond to the atrocities, the things that you have been seeing with your own eyes in video that Kate has just described without escalating the conflict further. Live pictures now out of Gaza City. You can see - or Gaza itself. You can see there have been strikes this morning. The smoke still billowing there as we have seen just about every single day since this Hamas surprise attack occurred. We have more reporting for you ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:27:47]

SIDNER: All right, these are live pictures once again that you're looking at into Gaza. And several places where smoke is billowing from air strikes this morning.

We should talk about what is happening in the region right now. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in the region. He has just had a press conference not long ago, standing next to Benjamin Netanyahu, showing full support for Israel as it deals with what was a surprise attack and the aftermath of that.

We also know that Palestinian officials are calling for help from the world to try to set up hospitals in Gaza as they began to run out of fuel, which would mean the hospitals go dark as they are trying to treat hundreds of patients there. Israel says they will not reopen the electricity, the water or the fuel until hostages held by Hamas are returned.

BERMAN: So, this morning, Secretary of State Antony Blinken is promising Israel that U.S. help will never falter. In Tel Aviv, Blinken told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu there is overwhelming bipartisan support for Israel's security. But the Republican-controlled House is paralyzed right now. Really can't do anything. There is no speaker.

The Republican conference nominated Steve Scalise yesterday, but he does not have the full votes, the votes on the House floor to win the gavel, at least not yet.

With us now is Republican Congressman from New York, Mike Lawler.

Congressman, I read in "Punchbowl" this morning, it said, quote, "Mike Lawler has all but closed the possibility of voting for Steve Scalise." No chance you're going to vote for Scalise?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Look, we need to get to 217. And I met with Leader Scalise last night. And one of the things I said is, you've got to get everybody back in the room.

The whole point yesterday was that we never should have left the room until we had 217 votes to go to the House floor. So, I think it's imperative. We're supposed to get back together around noon, 12:30 today, and meet and try to resolve this.

[09:30:00]

The biggest challenge to me, and you see the list of people who are saying that they won't vote for him.