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IDF: Israel Conducting Large-Scale Strike On Targets In Gaza; UN: 330,000+ People Displaced In Gaza; Interview With Rep. Buddy Carter (R-GA): Speaker Race And Steve Scalise's Chance Of Winning; Hamas Attack Complicates Ties Between Russia And Israel. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired October 12, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: In Israel today, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office released what he says are horrifying photos of babies murdered and burned by the Hamas monsters -- those were his words. I want to give you a warning. We're going to show you one of these photos. I want to give you a chance to look away from the television before we show you this photo. Two of the photos that Israel says show two babies burned beyond recognition. We are not going to show you.

We're about to show you just one of these images. This photo that you are now seeing is a baby's body stained with blood. We've blurred the face of the baby. CNN cannot verify where these were taken or who the baby is. These have been released to the world and shared with U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Secretary of State Blinken spoke about those images as well today.

I want to bring in Leon Panetta, formerly the U.S. Secretary of Defense under President Obama. Secretary Panetta, appreciate you being with us. With so much violence and so much outrage about the attack that took place here starting Saturday morning, the risk of obviously a wider war growing that might involve certainly other countries, I'm wondering what you make of this situation that we are in right now.

LEON PANETTA, DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, look. These are -- these are horrific events. And the barbaric killing that went on by these terrorists is just a hard, hard to believe, hard to imagine. And I understand a kind of Israel's reaction to this. We had the same reaction after 911. We were going to go after the terrorists who were involved in 9/11 and we did. It took a while, but we ultimately got those terrorists. And Israel is facing the same decision right now in terms of going after Hamas. Now, the numbers are a lot larger. They've got to -- they're they'll be concentrated.

[15:35:00]

A lot of them will be in Gaza. It's not going to be easy, but it's understandable that Israel wants to go after those who have been engaged in this horrific, horrific barbarism that they've witnessed.

COOPER: One of obviously the complicating factors in any ground operation in Gaza and even in the bombardment of Gaza that we've witnessed, there is the civilian population there. More than two million people there, many -- there are many people living in Gaza who do not like Hamas but are powerless to stop them. Is there any chance you believe that Egypt would agree to allow large numbers of civilians from Gaza to cross over the border? And I mean, it seems that seems highly unlikely given Egypt's refusal to do that in the past.

PANETTA: It's not likely. Egypt might agree to some corridors, but, you know, it's something they haven't agreed to in the past. Look, this is a situation that I'm reminded of Colin Powell's warning in Iraq. I think he called it the pottery -- the Pottery Barn rule that if you break it, you're going own it.

COOPER: You break it, you bought it.

PANETTA: You got it and. I don't think there's any question that if there's an invasion of Gaza. That it's going to be tough, it's going to be, you know, building to building door to door. A lot of casualties. And I guess my hope is that Israel is thinking about exactly what are their goals here? What do they want to achieve? I know Netanyahu has talked about totally destroying Hamas. But what are those goals they want to achieve? And what is an endpoint ultimately look like? Because if the end result is occupancy of Gaza, that's not going to be a pretty picture either.

COOPER: One of the reasons that this operation, this terror attack, may have taken place at the time it did, was concerned by Hamas about Saudi Arabia making a deal in this region with Israel a normalization of relations. Is that something that you think should move forward? Hard to see how that might happen right now, but is that something you think is critically important?

PANETTA: Absolutely, absolutely. I think we still have to focus on how are we going to resolve the issues in the Middle East between Palestine, the Arabs in Israel. And it was a positive movement that we were developing the Abraham Accords and getting moderate Arab countries to join those accords and recognize Israel. And that effort would have been climaxed in many ways if we were able to get Saudi Arabia to have been a part of the Abraham Accords. Because that would have meant that the major moderate nations, Arab nations, would have recognized Israel, and then they could all have focused on the Palestinian issue and how to resolve that issue.

So I hope that we -- I know it's obviously not a good time now -- but that we ultimately continue that diplomatic effort. Because ultimately, regardless of what happens with this war, the fact is we have got to find a peaceful solution to the issue of how Palestinians, Israelis and Arabs all live together in the same part of the world.

COOPER: Secretary Panetta, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Our special lock coverage continues after a short break.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Louisiana Congressman Steve Scalise has spent the last few hours on Capitol Hill trying to convince holdouts in his conference they should vote for him to become the next speaker. But Scalise is behind the scenes jockeying does not appear to be helping. Some report -- Republicans reportedly now discussing a potential plan B. Let's discuss with Georgia Congressman Buddy Carter. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us. From Manu Raju's reporting, there is somewhere between a dozen to two dozen holdouts that Scalise has to convince. What's your message to those holdouts?

REP. BUDDY CARTER (R-GA): Well, first of all, we need to follow the rules. The rules of the conference and that is that If you get a majority of the majority votes, then you are our nominee and Steve Scalise did just that. We've got an opportunity here to elect the most conservative speaker we have ever had in Steve Scalise. I'm supporting Steve Scalise and I think he deserves to be our nominee.

However, it's important to note that we got a deep bench, we've got a lot of people who could do a great job as speaker. But Steve Scalise ran for speaker, he got the most votes. Our rules say the person who gets the most votes is going to be our nominee. We should move forward and we should elect him as our next speaker.

SANCHEZ: So you think this should be put to a floor vote right away and that Scalise should try to grind it out the way Kevin McCarthy did over 15 rounds in January?

CARTER: Well, that's why we met today and that's why we continue to meet, to try to get this done before we go on the floor and have another 15 rounds. That's what we're trying to avoid. But you know, I take offense to the fact that we followed the rules, he got the majority of the votes. He should be our nominee.

[15:45:00]

I mean, that would be like me running in a primary and I get the most votes, but all of a sudden, I'm not going to be the nominee. That doesn't make any sense at all.

All of us who are here won a primary and won the majority of the votes in the primary. That's the way we got here.

SANCHEZ: I take your comparison to a primary, but the fact is he needs 217 votes to get there and he can lose no more than four Republicans. If there are roughly a dozen that are hard nose, that's a difficult path to move forward. And from my colleague Manu Raju's reporting, it sounds like a lot of members in the conference are concerned that Scalise is not ready to drain the swamp to revamp the way that Republicans have conducted business. What do you say to those folks who are just hard nosed beyond, you know, your remarks that he won the nomination?

CARTER: Well, that's what we're trying to work through now. Steve and as we speak, is meeting with the group who are opposed to him being the next speaker and he's trying to work out the situation with them. Explain to them how he feels and what his beliefs are and they should know that already. Steve's been our Majority Leader, he's been a whip. And he's had years of experience with this. So I'm very comfortable that he would be a great speaker. Those who have concerns, those who have reservations, they need to go to Steve, they need to talk to him and they need to make a decision.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, you did make a point in that first answer to say that Republicans have a deep bench and many potential candidates to become speaker. So if it's not Scalise and it's not Jim Jordan, then who is it?

CARTER: Well, again, we've we're very blessed to have a deep bench. You know, you talk about people like Tom Cole. You talk about people like Tom Emmer. We we've got a number of people who could do a great job as speaker. But Steve Scalise is our nominee right now. He is the speaker designee and he is the one that we are concentrating right now to get into the speakers chair. And we need to get someone in there as soon as possible. The world is counting on us to do that.

SANCHEZ: Yes, you're alluding to the situation in the Middle East. I take it the ongoing crisis in Israel. I do want to ask you about comments from former President Donald Trump. He is the Republican front runner for 2024, and he criticized Benjamin Netanyahu and Israeli intelligence. He claimed that before Hamas launched the. Months their attacks this weekend, quote, thousands of people knew about it, and they let this slip by. Are those remarks appropriate right now?

CARTER: Well, first of all I, you know, you never want to see anyone and anyone really complement terrorist. Terrorism is wrong. We all understand that. But I will say this -- first of all, I've not been able to see the president's remarks. I've obviously been busy trying to work out this with the speaker. But I will say this, President Trump's record on Israel is clear. He has been supportive of Israel over the years. He is the one who moved the embassy to Jerusalem. So I think he's got a clear record of support for Israel. I don't think there's any question about that. The Democrats who are -- who are criticizing him, they should be looking within their own party to the antisemitism that that exists there and not criticizing the former president.

SANCHEZ: I will say the remarks are as quoted from former President Trump, alluding to the idea that some within Israel knew that something was going to happen and did nothing about it. I will move on to something else, though. It seems all but certain we're going see a ground invasion by the IDF inside of Gaza. What should the end goal be? How concerned are you for the potential loss of civilian life, of innocent Palestinians, women and children that had nothing to do with what we saw unfold over the weekend?

CARTER: Without question, this is one of the worst atrocities I've ever witnessed in my life. And I will tell you my thoughts and prayers are with these people. The innocent civilians who are being killed, who are being injured and mutilated here, that is of the utmost concern to all of us, particularly in the Republican Conference. We are solidly behind Israel and we don't want to see any, any citizens killed or injured as a result of this. SANCHEZ: Congressman Buddy Carter, thank you so much for the time we

got to leave it there.

CARTER: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Stay with CNN for more on our special coverage from Israel. We'll be back. In just moments.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The global impacts of this war are reaching far beyond Israel and Gaza. The Hamas attack on Israel further complicates ties between Israel and Russia. So far, Russia is citing what they say is, quote, concern, but has not outright condemned the terror attack. CNN's Matthew Chance joins me now. It is interesting to see how little Vladimir Putin has said about what's happening here.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, Vladimir Putin has a relationship with Hamas. They regularly go to Moscow for consultations. There have been allegations -- unproven, I think that Russia perhaps helped Hamas in in planning these attacks. That's what, you know, the Hamas spokesperson -- and one of them has been interviewed on Russian television, has suggested that Russia approved of it.

But you know, I think we could probably overstate the extent to which Russia has an influence over what Hamas does.

[15:55:00]

Iran is a much bigger sort of player in that regard. Russia's influence on Palestinian militants in general, I think is very modest. But of course that doesn't mean that this situation, this crisis, this tragedy, isn't playing into the hands of Moscow.

COOPER: Yes, it's certainly diverting attention away from what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

CHANCE: Exactly. Convert -- taking attention away from it politically, but also potentially if it goes on for a long time, it could divert weapons away from supplies to Ukraine as well. I mean, this turns into a broader regional war with the United States, you know, backing Israel and becoming embroiled into it. Obviously, that will put major pressure on the ability of the U.S. and other allies to provide weaponry to Ukraine.

COOPER: And north -- Russia had just, you know, hosted North Korea's leader, their weapons going to be flowing from North Korea to Moscow. All of that is not getting the attention that it would have.

CHANCE: It hasn't. I mean, look, I mean, the world's attention is focused on this and Russia is definitely a part of the axis of powers that are, you know, are standing behind this, you know, perhaps being blamed for and are standing behind this conflict. Remember, Russia is a major backer of Iran as well. And so, you know, if Iran is the puppet master when it comes to Palestinian militants and it certainly is when it comes to Hezbollah, then it has that sort of powerful ally in Russia to watch its back.

COOPER: Yes, and of course, Iranian drones, rockets being used in Ukraine as well, at the behest of Russia. Matthew Chance, appreciate it. Thanks very much.

I'm Anderson Cooper in Tel Aviv. Our coverage from Israel and the region continues. Join me again at 8:00 Eastern Time tonight for 360. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right after a short break.