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Israel Tells 1.1 Million to Leave Northern Gaza, U.N. Says it's Impossible; Protests Erupt in Occupied West Bank; Israeli Tanks on the Move Near Gaza Border. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 13, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- children, some starting to move from the northern part of Gaza to the south, even walking south, carrying with them what they can.

[10:00:08]

A huge question though is, where will they go?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Let's get right to Becky Anderson, who is with us now. Becky is in Jerusalem, I believe. Becky, why don't you tell us what you're seeing this morning and what you're hearing from the Israeli military, because this order to people living in Gaza to evacuate south? It is a major statement and a major ask.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: It is a major statement and a major ask, certainly for those Palestinians who, frankly, are in Gaza and have nowhere to go at this point. So, the U.N. sheltering, and I spoke to the U.N. yesterday, the point at which I spoke to them, they were already sheltering some 330,000 people. So, that's tough.

But let me tell you what's been going on here, because I think the protests that we're seeing are really significant at this point. Eight Palestinians shot dead by Israeli forces around the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem during protests in support of Gaza, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry.

Israeli forces shot at Palestinians in the West Bank cities of Hebron, Ramallah, Bethlehem, Tulkarm and the town of Tammun, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. A total of 44 people have been killed and hundreds of others injured in the past week since the -- in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, since these clashes began with Israeli forces.

There's been settler gunfire. It's been a tense week, as settlers reportedly roamed the West Bank shooting at passing vehicles on Thursday. A Palestinian man and his son were shot dead when settlers attacked the funeral procession of four Palestinians who were killed in Qusra.

Now, Friday midday prayers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, very quiet, I have to say. I was out and observing this. Israeli forces reportedly very selective about who they let in to Al-Aqsa, who they let into the compound today. I was in East Jerusalem earlier speaking with some of those who did get in and I was told by people returning from midday prayers that only women over 50 and men over 60 were allowed in Al-Aqsa, of course, Islam's third holiest site on the shrine on the site that's known by Arabs as Haram Al-Sharif and by Jews as the Temple Mount. It's the holiest place in Judaism, also revered by Christians. And it is the most contentious site in Jerusalem and lies very much at the heart of the conflict.

And, John, if we step out for a moment, today we've also seen mass protests across this region in support of Gaza and what is going on there and is likely to happen going forward.

We've seen these protests in places like Bahrain, in Baghdad, in Iraq, in Sana'a, in Yemen, in Iran's capital of Tehran, protesters heeding the calls, it seems, to protest what they perceive to be Israeli crimes against -- being committed against Palestinians.

Important to note that in a place like Tehran these protests would be sponsored and supported by the regime and typically come right after Friday prayers. And the point is to show that there's public backing for the regime's support of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

So, you know, the sense that we are seeing some very violent clashes in the West Bank, a relatively quiet but very, very sort of agitated day in East Jerusalem and then these protests around the region only speaks to, I think, where this region is at in putting the Palestinian cause sort of squarely back on the map.

And I've spoken to people today, Palestinians living in East Jerusalem, who are not supporters of Hamas, they're not supporters of you know our militant groups. These are Palestinians who are trying to go about their daily lives caught up in this but clearly have huge sympathy for the residents of Gaza who have, as we started this discussion, who have now been told by the IDF to evacuate.

They have nowhere to go at this point. That border crossing in Rafah would be the only way out at this point. And, you know, even though there are enormous amount of discussions, and I'm speaking to my sources around the region about you know where those where those Palestinians would go from Gaza if indeed they open that crossing.

[10:05:03]

It's not clear at this point. So you've got a very, very, very difficult situation at present. And in the hours to come, it will be revealed what happens next. John?

BERMAN: All right, Becky Anderson, who is in Jerusalem for us. Just to give you a sense again of the geography of what you were seeing there, Jerusalem is right there, Ramallah, where we were seeing video of those protests in the West Bank, not far from where Becky is up here, and then, of course, Gaza, where all this fighting could very soon be taking place in the South. Kate?

BOLDUAN: John, pull up your map of Gaza so we can show where Erin Burnett's location is, as we're going to -- she's down near the Gaza- Egypt border in Israel, just to get a view, everyone, of where that is where Erin Burnett is.

Let's get back to Erin right now because there's even more developments there since we last saw you, Erin. What's going on?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. So, we've been hearing Israeli attack helicopters above and quite a bit of outgoing artillery, loud artillery, sort of firing parallel from where we are into Gaza. Of course, the Israeli Air Force has said they've dropped the same number of bombs on Gaza in six days as during the entire 2014 conflict with Gaza. So, that's the scale of what we're actually seeing here on the ground.

And I should say, listening to Becky talk about that border, the Rafah border here, as you both know, we're a few miles from the Gaza border. We're about ten or so miles from the Egyptian border and not much further. Over that border is that closed crossing.

And this is what it's like. It's a very -- you're in a very desert- like environment as we experience when those tanks go by. I mean, that is the terrain here. And that border is closed. And you think about Gaza and how tiny it is and how many -- you've got more than 2 million people there, and that border completely closed just not far from where we are.

It gives you a sense though that if you were to open it, there is the real question of where they go. You're coming into terrain very similar to what's behind me and where we're standing right now. And so that's some of the big questions they have to answer.

But, again, where we are, we just did hear some Israeli attack helicopters and, again, that consistent continuing outgoing artillery fire from Israel into Gaza.

BOLDUAN: Erin, thank you so much for being there. We're going to continue to stay close to you. I think you've even heard more happening behind Erin as we speak. We'll get right back to you. John?

BERMAN: And again, she was just talking about -- this is the border between Israel and Egypt, Gaza and Egypt, the Rafah crossing right here, which is closed from Gaza into Egypt right there, Erin operating somewhere down here in Israel, not far from both borders.

I want to go now to Sderot, right here, the Israeli town where Nic Robertson is a mile, two miles from the Gaza border overlooking Gaza. Nic, what have you been seeing over the last several hours?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, more and more artillery impacts going into Gaza, some big plumes of smoke. Apparently, it looks like fires in Gaza. This is right at the northern end of Gaza, right in that area that Israel has told the civilians there to move south. The U.N. says it's about 1.1 million people, that to do that would be impossible.

But I think what we're seeing emerging here, because Israel is asking the civilians to move to help save their lives so they don't get caught up collateral damage, if you will, when Israel targets Hamas, its commanders, its bunkers, its ammunition stores, its launch sites, all of that. Israel is saying to those civilians, move south and get out of the way.

Hamas is telling them to stay put and don't leave. This in a way is being set up for a blame game. And that's an oversimplification for what may play out in the coming days with a ground incursion that could lead to high civilian casualties.

We already know more than 1,500 Palestinians have died already in the strikes on Gaza. Hamas will be able to say, well, we blame it entirely on Israel. And they'll try to use that to wield international pressure on Israel to cut back its military goals of trying to take out Hamas completely.

And Israel would be in the position of saying, look, we asked for the civilians to move. And Hamas told them not to move. It would be hard to move that many people in Gaza, no impossible, without Hamas' support to provide vehicles, to provide buses, that sort of thing, because most people there don't have that sort of transportation available to them and won't know where to go. The U.N. says already 400,000 people in Gaza are displaced right now already.

So, if you will, a tragic scenario that's emerging here, but it's not a new one where Israel tries to focus its precise targeting on Hamas. Civilians become innocent victims in collateral damage there.

[10:10:04]

They're trying to ask them to leave. Hamas is saying no. Both sides say it's therefore the other one has a responsibility by the international community looks on and will likely mount pressure on Israel as a Palestinian death toll claims. But we seem to be stepping towards that scenario. And this was a phase of it today.

But I think Israel's announcement there tells us that this ground offensive is getting closer. We don't know when, but it feels like it's getting closer.

BERMAN: Yes, no doubt. I mean, they told the people to leave. The U.N. claims this is within 24 hours, the IDF saying now, leave now as quickly as possible. And as you say, we spoke to a spokesperson for the IDF last hour who was saying this is to save civilian lives, though the people in Gaza say they can't possibly move as quickly as they need to now.

Nic Robertson in Sderot, keep us posted, we will talk to you again soon. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Joining us now for more on this is George Birnbaum. He's a current adviser to the Israeli foreign minister and also an adviser to the mayor of Jerusalem. It's good to see you. Thank you so much for taking the time.

After what we just heard, jumping off of what Nic and John were talking about, what are you preparing to see or what are you preparing yourself to see happen in the coming days now that we have this call for evacuation from the IDF for folks in Northern Gaza to move out of there? We see the leaflets have being dropped into Gaza. What are you prepared to see?

GEORGE BIRNBAUM, ADVISER TO FOREIGN MINISTER OF ISRAEL AND MAYOR OF JERUSALEM: Well, I think what we're prepared to see is exactly what Hamas asked for, total war. While the Jewish people and the Jewish state have been seeking peace since 1948 and have achieved peace with Egypt, Jordan and recently other of our Arab neighbors, Hamas and the Palestinians have sought one thing, blood, Jewish blood. We wanted peace. They've asked for war. They're getting war. And that's what we're going to see.

BOLDUAN: The U.N. has decried the Gaza evacuation order issued by the IDF saying that it's impossible for civilians to evacuate without devastating humanitarian consequences. We have some new reporting just into CNN from a senior State Department official that Tony Blinken pressed Israeli officials on the need to establish safe zones for civilians inside Gaza, some sort of safe area, where the people who live in Gaza City can go to be saved from Israeli security operations. How do you do that?

BINRBAUM: Well, it's very difficult. Israel has always, from day one of the establishment of the State of Israel, waged any war in the most humanitarian way possible, if you can even say that, always trying to mitigate collateral damage.

But, remember, we're not dealing with an army. We're dealing with terrorists. We're dealing with thugs. We're dealing with barbarians who are dressed as civilians, who are hiding behind civilians. And so as much as Israel will do everything it can to mitigate collateral damage, it will not stop Israel. It will not solve our resolve and it will not stop the necessity of completely eliminating and eradicating Hamas from the face of this Earth.

Look, in the State Department, even in this briefing, it looks like, that my colleague, Jenny Hansler, was reporting on, they even note that Hamas is known -- is using civilians as human shields, as they have from the beginning. And it's also impossible to influence what Hamas is going to do inside Gaza.

With that in mind, do -- I mean, are you -- would you say that it is impossible to ensure the safety of civilians once the security operation gets underway?

BIRNBAUM: No, I mean, you know, the Israeli army always fights with the, you know, within the rules of war that have been established internationally and they will do everything they can to protect human life. But, you know, we have to make sure that we don't lose sight of the objective. An objective is the elimination of Hamas.

And, by the way, you know, I would add that it doesn't stop in Gaza. We know and the world knows that the leadership of Hamas is not in Gaza. They're in Qatar. They're living in five-star hotels. And so, you know, one way to end this conflict is for the Qataris to round up the leadership of Hamas, put them on a plane, and let's trade them for the hostages. That will end things very quickly.

We've got to make sure we keep --

BOLDUAN: And what do you think of the role of Qatar now? Because we know Blinken -- one of his stops is in Qatar today, in today to start those conversations. We know that Qatar has put itself forward as something of an intermediary to try to speak to Hamas to get the hostages released. But, again, as you note, we should remind everyone of how strong the ties are between Qatar and Hamas.

BIRNBAUM: Exactly right. I mean, it's a little laughable that they won't act as an honest intermediary when they themselves are partly responsible for what we're seeing.

[10:15:00]

When the leadership of Hamas is able to sit in their five-star hotels in Doha, recruit money, organize with the Iranians and other terrorist organizations to carry out the brutal slaughter of Jews, they are as culpable as anyone. They have blood on their hands as well.

And so we need to make sure that we don't give them a pass. And while certainly we appreciate any help they may have and want to give, whether it's in terms of freezing Iranian money or negotiating on the release of terrorists, I guarantee you that if they were to round up and arrest the Hamas leadership in Doha right now, that we'd find a very quick solution to releasing the Jewish terrorists held in Gaza right now.

BOLDUAN: So, the focus and the most important issue right now is dealing with Hamas, getting back the hostages and protecting civilians, innocent civilian life in Gaza. At the same time, though, people in Israel are asking how this happened, what failed.

I want to play for you what one retired general with the IDF told CNN on this. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. ISRAEL ZIV (RET.), ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: It's a total collapse. I'm not going to say any excuses. It's a total collapse. It's a systematic collapse. It's the intelligence. It's the whole defense system. The defense system has a lot of elements. It's defense. It's the technology. It's the deployment of the army. It's the backup, so many things. It all collapsed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: What kind of investigation is needed to answer these questions to make sure Israel is protecting its people?

BIRNBAUM: Listen, I think everyone knows and understands that once this is all over, there will be a thorough investigation. And what the general said is absolutely correct. It was a total collapse. It was a total failure. But now is not the time to point fingers. Now is not the time to point blame. Now is the time to stay United. Now is the time to eliminate this barbaric threat from the face of the Earth. Once that is accomplished, then we can look at what happened and ensure that this never happens again.

BOLDUAN: George Birnbaum, thank you for your time. John?

BERMAN: Yes. And, again, Kate and George right there were talking about Doha, in Qatar, where U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is right now meeting with Qatari leaders, discussing Hamas, trying to find some way to get those hostages being held in Gaza out. He's also got other key meetings in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia later. We are waiting to hear from the secretary of state. Perhaps he might make some public statements shortly.

Also, we're following developments here in the United States as well. There is concern over security at certain locations. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:20:00]

BOLDUAN: Amid the terror and the tragedy, there are so many stories also of heroism emerging as well. Israeli-American Deborah Mathias and her husband, Shlomi, they were killed by the Hamas terrorists who attacked their kibbutz in southern Israel on Saturday. They died. But in their death, they also saved their 16-year-old son, Rotem.

The family tells us that how it played out was that Shlomi tried to stop the Hamas terrorists as they came into their house, was shot and killed, and then Deborah shielded her son behind her from the gunfire, and she died covering him with her body.

Rotem spoke to CNN about his parents and what they wished for him and his siblings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTEM MATHIAS, PARENTS KILLED IN HAMAS ATTACK: They want just to have -- they want us to be happy, to be whimsical, they want us to be joyful, they want us to be in peace, they didn't want us to be at a situation like this and they want us to live more than anything.

They won't die there, they won't die. They will live on in memories and in stories.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Rotem was shot in the stomach. He was injured. And after his parents were killed he got in touch with his family, got in contact with his family, including his aunt. And for nine agonizing hours, we're told, they were on the phone with him until he was rescued. And you can see that he is now recovering from his physical wounds.

We're joined now by Rotem's aunt, Bar Yuval-Shani. Bar, you have a remarkable family, just a -- it just -- you looked -- seeing the sisters around Rotem, it's just beautiful. It truly is. And you were on the phone with him for hours as he waited to be rescued for a period of time laying under his mother, your sister. What was that conversation like for you? I mean, what were those hours like?

BAR YUVAL-SHANI, SISTER, BROTHER-IN-LAW KILLED IN HAMAS ATTACK: I'm going to take a step back if it's all right with you. I'm finding it difficult to transition into this conversation. It's difficult in any way. But I heard before break questions about the responsibility in the Gaza Strip and I don't hear anybody asking who is responsible for ensuring Jewish safety, security for people who love life and are just trying to live, and I would like that to be asked as well.

My brother-in-law and my sister were peace activists and human rights activists and musicians, and they were founding members of the bilingual school for Jews and Arabs.

[10:25:15]

I just want to be able to say that before we start talking about what happened that morning.

You asked what it was like. We were actually on the family WhatsApp.

BOLDUAN: Bar, we can take a moment. I hear you. I mean, I understand.

YUVAL-SHANI: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: I mean, I understand your -- I hear you on all of it and the compounding tragedy of having to hear even us retelling what has happened to your sister even before we come and speak with you. It is unspeakable and it can't continue and it can't go on. I mean, I'm looking at the pictures of you and your sister together and it is gutting, and I'm sorry, yes.

YUVAL-SHANI: Thank you. I wish I could see you. I just see a screen. But I'll do my best and thank you for that. I appreciate it.

You asked about what it was like for me. Actually, we woke in the morning to a message from my sister on the family WhatsApp asking if we were all right. She was very concerned for everybody. Something was happening. There were missiles. There were alerts but also it felt different to her. It sounded different to her.

And she describes while we are online with her what is happening. We hear about the shattered -- we hear her. I'm going to read this for you, just a bit of it. We got a text from someone there, infiltration Sderot. It sounds like they shattered the glass at the backdoor, lots of shooting. She talks about their house being surrounded, lots of gunfire, about a knock on the door, which had to be terrorists.

My father writes, lock all entrances, all the tensions on you. She says, we did before entering the safe room. We are all very scared. The girls are in their homes and someone could kick it down, kick down our front door. And the back door is (INAUDIBLE). Definitely a lot of shooting in the kibbutz. That was at 7:47, we got our final message from her and there was no response to our messages. Until a few minutes later, Rotem wrote to us, mom and dad are dead. I'm sorry. And then, again, nine hours of supporting Rotem and making sure that he -- that we did everything possible to get him through this. So, that's the background.

BOLDUAN: And you actually are a therapist. You're actually a therapist specializing in trauma.

YUVAL-SHANI: I'm a psychotherapist.

BOLDUAN: And when I heard that, I thought, I mean, you would be the perfect person to have on the phone, but I'm sure this is a scenario you could never have prepared for in all of your training. I mean, how did you find that kick in, I guess?

YUVAL-SHANI: They were the most difficult moments of my life until then. And I've had my fair share of trauma and certainly working as a therapist under fire. I used to work in the Gaza Strip. And as soon as there was a direct hit, I would immediately come and help the family that had been hit. But this is different.

And when Rotem said -- wrote, wrote that his mom and dad are dead, for a moment, people asked if this was real, or was this a 16-year-old's bad sense of humor, or you can't really believe that something like this is happening. And very quickly, he wrote that he's bleeding. And, very quickly, we understood that this was true.

And I remember saying to myself, all right, you cannot -- I knew what was happening in my body. I knew what was happening in my emotions. I saw my sister. I quickly, I soon learned that he was lying underneath her, that he couldn't breathe, that there was smoke. I didn't know if he couldn't breathe because my sister's body had become a heavy body of a dead person, my beautiful, beautiful, vital sister, or if he was wounded badly in a way that was keeping him from breathing, or, you know -- but we needed to ascertain what his physical condition was, what his mental condition was or how we could help it.

[10:30:03]

And the whole family really banded together. We, from the north and south of Israel --