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Israel at War; 28 Villages Near Lebanon Border Ordered to be Evacuated by Israel; Devastation in Gaza City Seen in Recent Video; Interview with Hostage Working Group at U.S. Embassy in Iraq Former Coordinator Daniel O'Shea; 199 Hostages Being Held by Hamas in Gaza, According to Israel; Rep. Jim Jordan Faces Uphill Battle for House speaker; Jerusalem's Sirens Cause Israeli Knesset to Evacuate; Six U.N. Fuel Trucks Enter Gaza through Rafah Border from Egypt; Some Members of House GOP Reportedly Prepared to Block Jordan; Interview with Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR); Prior to Tomorrow's Election, GOP's Jordan Attempting to Convert Holdouts; Israel Gears Up for Next Stage of War Against Hamas in Gaza. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired October 16, 2023 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Cedric Leighton, thank you so much.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Coming up still for us, airstrikes in Gaza continue and rockets continue to fly from Hamas into Israel. Hamas has launched thousands of rockets since the start of this. Israel -- leaving Israel to lean hard on its Iron Dome system to protect civilians. Up next, a closer look at this critical piece of Israel's national defense.

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[10:35:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: This is really hard to look at. We are looking at brand-new drone video that has just come into CNN and it is showing you the enormous, almost unfathomable destruction in Gaza city from moments ago. That destruction is far and wide in Gaza City. You can see buildings that have been pulverized, you can some of them that have what appears to be the tops blown off. Some of them have crumbled.

And you look at these scenes, and you know that Israelis have been saying that they are targeting Hamas areas. Targeting places where Hamas, for example, maybe hiding weapons, maybe hiding missiles, maybe hiding some other kind of infrastructure or some of their fighters from the Al-Aqsa militant part of the group.

But we also know and have seen that civilians, including children, babies have also been killed. And so, you are look at this destruction and it is really is, in parts of Gaza City, bombed beyond recognition in what is one of the most populated, densely populated places on the planet.

And we know at this very moment in time, there is a humanitarian crisis going on there, because food and water and fuel is very low. But we have now heard that there are trucks with fuel coming in from Egypt, coming in from the Rafah Border, but still, you look at this destruction and you can see why there is such enormous fear for the civilians in Gaza just trying to get away from the vestiges of war.

All right. Joining me now Daniel O'Shea. He's a former Navy SEAL commander and coordinator for the hostage working group in Iraq. Thank you so much for taking time out to talk us through this.

I want to talk to you about the hostages, as a former Navy SEAL with the extensive experience that you have and, sort of, strategic operations in how to get something done, can you give us some sense of what you think about the military's potential ground offensive in Gaza? We know right now that there is a huge number, hundreds of thousands of troops that are on that border. There are tanks on that border, and they say they are ready to go when they get the word.

DANIEL O'SHEA, FORMER COORDINATOR, HOSTAGE WORKING GROUP AT U.S. EMBASSY IN IRAQ: Yes, it's going to be an urban assault, the likes that, you know, we've in last 20 years. Only in places like Fallujah, both Fallujah I and II. Ramadi, when they retook Ramadi after ISIS had taken it over. It is going to be, you know, door-to-door battle.

And again, as you stated, Gaza is the most densely -- one of the most densely populated regions in the world, and literally on every corner there are going to be challenges. So, it is going to be a very chaotic. It's going to be reminiscent of World War II, and what happened in Europe in World War II.

SIDNER: Wow. That is a really stark thing to say. We are looking at the destruction, too. I don't know if you can see this destruction, but we're looking at the destruction. This is just from airstrikes. This has nothing to do with the ground war that is being prepared right now.

How much -- how would this operation be carried out effectively. We have heard over and over and over again from the Israeli military that their only goal is to rid Gaza of Hamas. That is their goal, to get rid of Hamas once and for all. But they are saying they are going to also try to protect civilian lives. A lot of this is intertwined in this very densely populated place. How do you go about carrying this out effectively?

O'SHEA: Well, there is no, "Easy answer to this," because the civilian population are intermixed amongst the fighters, the Hamas fighters. And they have done that intentionally. I mean, Hamas has tried to put stopgaps to let people from the north fully to the south, because they want the civilian casualties. That's part of the -- they've lost the upper-hand in the world's eyes for the terror and destruction they brought to Israel last week, and that's why they'll want to turn this around.

And soon as the body count, especially with the body count on the civilian side. No one cares when fighters die, just being blunt. Soldiers sign up to serve. They die in combat. It is a tragedy. But you sign up for that. And the fighters feel the same way. But it's when the civilians get wrapped up into this. That's when the world opinion changes. And so, that's going to be the challenge for the Israeli forces going in.

And literally, block to block, they're going to be, you know, taking down buildings that will have not only fighters for, you know, Hamas fighters, but largely there will be civilians still in the mix. So, there is no easy way to do this, and it is a nightmare of just epic proportions. And then, you know, even considering, you know, the hostage operations as well, even more challenging in an environment like Gaza.

[10:40:00]

SIDNER: Yes. I did want to ask you about the hostage negotiations or the lack thereof. There are now, according to the Israeli Defense Forces, there are now 199 hostages. That number has gone up from what they thought was between 100 and 150 hostages. With that many people taken hostages, we're talking about children, we're talking about grandparents, we're talking people who may have some medical issues, we're talking about people who maybe injured but they're still alive taken by Gaza -- sorry, taken by Hamas in Gaza -- into Gaza. And Hamas has this huge extensive tunnel network that is underground as well.

How on God's Earth do you get to anyone at this point in time when, you know, right now, it is closed off to everyone, but Israel is looking at going in on the ground?

O'SHEA: I can tell you, in 20 years of tracking kidnapping incidents from around the world. from the Beslan School, kidnappings crisis two years in Iraq, 448 kidnappings in Iraq, there is nothing like what the challenge will be in Gaza. It is, again, as you said, the tunnel system that, you know, we don't even know if they have been mapped out. I'm sure some of that intelligence is probably available to the Israeli intelligence support and will be sharing with the U.S. operational forces on the ground.

But there is just no harder environment. The density of the population and the fact that virtually -- even in Iraq, we owned the battlespace and the air space. We had foreign bases all over the country. We can operate in the middle of the night and move around. And the big key thing for hostage rescue is a "Stealthy insertion," because you have to assume that those hostages are surrounded by armed-toting gunmen.

Hamas wants to kill these people. I mean, they took those hostages to continue the terror mission. It is -- I don't -- the odds are not good for those hostages, but the same scenario in ISIS, in Syria. And we did launch rescue missions. So, the best hostage rescue forces on planet Earth are certainly assembled into -- in the region. And if anyone can get them out, it will be U.S. special operation forces in conjunction with the IDF, and certainly the intelligence capability that Mossad and other intelligence organizations in Israel will be bringing to bear. SIDNER: Yes. I -- we got a real surprise yesterday when we found out that the U.S. has said that it is not ruling out sending in troops just for the purpose on the ground of trying to get out, particularly, American hostages who are stuck there in Gaza somewhere. But at this point in time, yes, as you said, this is going to be something like we have never seen before if and when that ground offensive happens. Daniel O'Shea, thank you so much for giving us that analysis on how this ground offensive might look, and how there's any possibility that these families will -- of the hostages to ever see their loved ones again. I appreciate your time.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Another major story that we are tracking right now, Republicans in the House, they're are set to vote again on the potential of trying to get a new speaker. That vote is scheduled for tomorrow, but one Republican tells CNN now, they believe around 40 Republicans are still a no vote. Fighting it out on the House floor, will that change the math for Jim Jordan. We have a critical voice in this conversation joining us next.

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[10:45:00]

SIDNER: This is breaking news just in to CNN. The Israeli parliament known as the Knesset had to briefly evacuate after the sirens sounded in Jerusalem. Those sirens warning, of course, of incoming rocket fire to the Holy City of Jerusalem. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been speaking there in the last few hours. The lawmakers were asked to leave the floor to a nearby corridor and they remained there for several minutes until an all-clear was given.

We have seen this happen and experienced it ourselves over and over and over again. CNN journalists on the ground also reporting of hearing sirens there in Jerusalem, followed by several loud thuds in both Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Those loud thuds are usually the Iron Dome knocking out those missiles.

Now, we also have our first video in of those six U.N. fuel trucks. This is significant. They were able to cross from Egypt into Gaza via the Rafah Border crossing. Our CNN producer who is there on the ground witnessed this firsthand. There has been tons of chaos at that border crossing because thousands upon thousands of Palestinian civilians and foreign nationals are trying to leave Gaza because they had been warned that they must get out of half of Gaza and especially Gaza City.

I am going to go ahead and send it over to Kate, but these are extraordinary pictures right now coming in because the Rafah Crossing, everyone has been saying, oh, it's closed. Oh, it's difficult. Oh, we can't get over. Well, now we can see that they can at least get the fuel trucks in. The question is, how long before they let the Palestinians and foreign nationals out at that same border.

Kate. BOLDUAN: That's exactly right. But this is an image to remember. This is the first that we are seeing of fuel trucks heading in. We will get back to Sara very shortly.

We're also tracking this big headline in this big story in the United States right now. It has been almost two full weeks now of the House of Representatives, essentially, at a standstill, frozen, paralyzed as it still does not have a speaker. This week begins with another round of uncertainty around this.

Congressman Jim Jordan, he is the leading candidate, if you will. He is now pushing for a vote on the house floor tomorrow. He is hoping to really battle it out in public now and fight to win over the speakership, rather than keeping it behind closed doors as they have done up until this point, and he faces an uphill battle. One senior House Republican told CNN, they think that there are still roughly 40 no votes against Jordan. If the full House is voting, Jordan can only lose four Republicans.

Joining me now is Republican Congressman from Arkansas, Steve Womack. Congressman, thank you so much for coming in. You supported Steve

Scalise when he was still in it, Scalise is now out. Are you going to support Jim Jordan? Where are you on this?

REP. STEVE WOMACK (R-AR): Well, first of all, Kate, let me start by saying, as somebody who has commanded troops in the Sinai Peninsula U.S. troops with a multinational force and observers, I'm very familiar with the Rafah Crossing. Very familiar with Gaza. And it is good to know that there are fuel trucks going through that terminal. But, boy, our hearts break for what's going on in that area of the world. And I just want the people watching to know that it's got our attention.

So, let's go back to your --

BOLDUAN: Well, thanks for saying that, Congressman.

WOMACK: -- original question. Yes, I -- look, you'll know how I vote, when I vote.

[10:50:00]

But I've got some serious issues about where we stand right now as a conference because it seems like the goalpost just continue to move. The other day when Steve Scalise won and became the designee of the Republican conference, his opponent, Jim Jordan, who is now the designee, said that he would support -- in his concession speech, that he would support Scalise if Scalise can get 217 in conference before going to the floor.

Now, all of a sudden it looks like that if you're short of 217, it's OK now to go to the floor since he is the designee. So, I'm not really sure where all of this comes down. All I can tell you is it's such a mess. It's basically self-inflicted. We have allowed a very small percentage of people in our conference to dictate a potential outcome here, and that is not the way this system was designed to work nor should it work.

So, my understanding is there is a chance that we're going to be voting on this at noon tomorrow. If that is the case, then we're going to know what the vote count is at that time with certainty, and then Mr. Jordan will know whether or not he's got -- he'll either have the votes or he'll at least know by roll call who he needs to go work on to try to shore up that 217. But it's going to require 217 because you're not going to get any support from Democrats.

BOLDUAN: A couple of things on that, Congressman. One, to the point you were just making about how you got here. One Republican told my hill colleagues the following, we can't reward this behavior. Talking about the hardliners that ousted Kevin McCarthy and then would not support Scalise, just like you were talking about. This member is also saying, we can't let a small group be dictators. Do you think -- I mean, does that drive your decision-making? Is that part of your decision-making here?

WOMACK: Well, it's in the calculus of any member that might be predisposed of voting against Jim Jordan because, let's face it, the people that are promoting Jim Jordan for in -- for the most part are people who presided over the ouster of Kevin McCarthy. So, it is kind of interesting to see all the bedfellows here. It's -- we, you know, we're going to need at least a conference meeting where maybe a roll call could take place, and, you know, to have that number. On Friday, when we left it was 55, remember that. I mean, in affirmation vote after Jim Jordan became the designee, he was still -- you know, he didn't have enough votes.

BOLDUAN: Super short.

WOMACK: Yes, not nearly enough to -- he was way short. And I don't know if the 40 number is right. But it is probably less than that, because if you a few have changed their minds, but I still think he's got an uphill battle to get to 217 on the first ballot if, in fact, we go tomorrow.

BOLDUAN: One of the thing I'm saying, Punchbowl has reported that some Republicans, including some on the appropriations committee, your committee, are going to vote against Jordan no matter what. Do you count yourself in that group?

WOMACK: We'll know when I vote, how I vote, and I will make my intentions known with all of the people that are important in this decision-making process to include Mr. Jordan. But I know there are concerns from the appropriations committee. After all, two weeks ago, Mr. Jordan voted against the continuing resolution on the very day that the funding was about to lapse. And so, he, in essence, voted for a government shutdown. And I know that concerns a lot of appropriators. We're concerned about the numbers that we are being told to write our bills to.

I'm a chairman of a subcommittee. We're concerned about those top line numbers that we're forced write to that we know, and most everybody knows are not going to become law because they have to be balanced out with what the recommendations are in the Senate, you got to get to 60 votes before you can have a full year appropriation.

I've said all along that given the divisions in the body politic right now, and let's face it, the country is divided, so the Congress is divided. But given these division, it is going to be really difficult for either party to be able to impose its will on the other. And that means that at some point in time --

BOLDUAN: So, are you ready to work with the Democrats yet?

WOMACK: I work with the Democrats every day.

BOLDUAN: I mean --

WOMACK: I talk to them.

BOLDUAN: -- I mean, to get a governing majority?

WOMACK: If it comes to that, it'll be a conference decision. The conference will have to decide at some point in time how urgent it is for us to get this government functioning again. And with what is going on in Israel, I think we're getting closer and closer to that point. But if it becomes apparent that nobody, and I've said this publicly, nobody in America can get 217 right now out of the Republican conference.

[10:55:00]

If that becomes apparent to everybody, then at some point in time, we're going to have to work across the aisle, try to figure out what it's going to take for us to be able to get a speaker elect and then get the ball rolling in Congress once again.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Congressman, thank you for coming on. Really appreciate it.

WOMACK: Kate, good to be with you. You bet. Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

Coming up for us, Israel gathering troops and equipment, amassing it at the border with Gaza as it gears up for the next stages of its war with Hamas to take out Hamas. We are with the Israeli reservists training for possible ground incursion. Sara, will take you there next.

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