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Israeli Ground Operation In Gaza Imminent; U.S., U.N., And Others Scramble To Evacuate Palestinians; Violence Erupts In Israel's Northern Border With Lebanon And West Bank; Humanitarian Crisis In Gaza As Residents Urged To Move South, Facing Challenges In Accessing Supplies. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 16, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: As an Israeli ground operation into Gaza appears imminent, the U.S., the U.N. and others are scrambling to get Palestinians out of harm's way. I'm Boris Sanchez. Alongside Brianna Keilar in Washington, Anderson Cooper is live for us in Tel Aviv, Israel.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And today, Secretary of State Anthony Blinken is there in Israel trying to help open the only viable option for Palestinians to leave Gaza, which is the Rafah crossing into Egypt in the south. At the same time, Blinken stressed that Israel's obligation to defend itself after the Hamas terror attack on October 7th that killed at least 1,400 people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF SATE: You know our deep commitment to Israel's right, indeed its obligation to defend itself and to defend its people. And in that, you have, you've always had the support of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I want to go right now to Nic Robertson along the Gaza border. Nic, what have you been seeing?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, literally two seconds ago, 3 rockets coming out of Gaza right on the horizon there. There was a couple of rockets 30 seconds before that coming over our heads. I just saw another flash, 2 coming out going in the direction of northern Israel. This appears to be rocket fire coming out of Gaza and that erupted out there coming from Gaza, literally 2 minutes after we heard 2 heavy impacts. It sounds like Israeli missiles impacting in Gaza. There goes another rocket missile. There's the sirens. We're just going to step to the side. We'll lock off the camera, step under some shelter to the side. We're expecting iron dome intercepts over here shortly with the siren going off. Not hearing them.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: So, Nic, just to be clear, those lights we saw on the left- hand side of the screen going up, those were rockets coming from Gaza?

ROBERTSON: Those were rockets coming from Gaza. And the fact that we had the warning siren going off here would have indicated normally that they were coming here into Sderot, at least the last couple of them, but there were no intercepts so they were perhaps headed off in a different direction. But it seems that we've had sort of 3 or 4 small salvos of just sort of 2 or 3 missiles at a time coming up. And because they're not being intercepted here, perhaps they're going to head further north to where you are in Tel Aviv. Perhaps they're headed over our heads further east into Israel. No doubt when the warning sirens go off in other towns and cities around Israel we'll get a better understanding of what's happening. But that's literally, that's what outgoing missiles at night from Gaza, outgoing rockets from Gaza look like, Anderson.

COOPER: And Nic, is it clear to you what the rocket capabilities still are of Hamas, in Gaza, given the artillery we've been seeing, the bombings we've been seeing in Gaza, the devastation we've seen in large places, in a lot of places throughout Gaza, particularly Gaza City, is it clear, I mean is there any sort of analysis of how many more rockets they may have? Because clearly they're able to still fire some.

ROBERTSON: Yeah, I think the analysis has to be exactly as you're saying, Anderson, that they're still able to fire some, but I think it all comes down to the sum. And I think what we've witnessed over the past week is the salvos just get smaller and smaller and smaller. Literally these were just in rounds of 2 or 3 missiles at a time, and that's what you were witnessing over Tel Aviv not so long ago this evening. And if this was this time last week, the salvos were dozens of rockets at a time into central Israel, up to Ashkelon and Ashdod, into Starot here.

[14:05:00]

We can't make the definitive calculation that that's all that Hamas have in their arsenal because they play a strategic, they use their missiles strategically. They may hold some back for other days. And typically, what we've seen in previous days is when the missile strikes, when Israeli missile strikes and artillery are particularly heavy on Gaza, Hamas is unable to get out and fire off as many rockets. Today it's been quieter, and it seems that they're only managing a few. So perhaps they are in a weakened position as far as rockets, but that's today. Tomorrow, tomorrow morning, later tonight could be different Anderson.

COOPER: Yeah. And obviously also potentially holding back for when a ground invasion does begin. No way to know for sure. Nic Robertson. Thank you. As this war progresses, violence has also erupted at Israel's Northern border with Lebanon also in the West bank as well. CNN's Becky Anderson joins me now with some of that, Becky, you were just in the West bank. What is the situation?

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Yeah, it's fascinating as Israel readies itself for the next stages of this war against Hamas, your right to point out there's a, there's a potential new front in Lebanon, Hezbollah with some 100,000 rockets. Let's remember that. So that's really worrying. It's also very worrying what's going on in the occupied West bank. That is a powder keg for months and months. It's been a real flashpoint of deadly violence just this past 10 days. Since this conflict began, we've seen the death of 60 Palestinians, innocent Palestinians at the hands of Jewish settlers. We went to 1 village, which has lost 6 men, innocent men who believe they are right in the crosshairs of the issues that are going on there. Let me see this report.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

ANDERSON: Twelve-year-old Abdul Rahman can't sleep at night. His sister Rabia says he's too scared to be alone. His home in the village of Khosrow, just South of Nablus was attacked by Jewish settlers. You can see them here in this video, lobbing rocks and firing at the property, shattering the windows inside the floor, littered with glass scars of bullets, scraping the walls, a bleak emptiness.

Four local Palestinians were killed in this attack. On the way to their funeral the following day, 2 other locals, Ibrahim and his son, Ahmed Wadi also shot dead. Images of the lost plaster the walls in Khosrow. Hani Odeh is the mayor here. His community lives in fear, he says, constantly attacked by Jewish settlers, and he says it's getting worse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANI ODEH, MAYOR OF QUSRA WEST BANK: The situation is so, so bad. You can't even describe it. We're living in a devastating psychological state. None of us can sleep.

(BEGIN VIDEO END)

ANDERSON: Torched cars, water pumps, electricity lines ransacked. Hani tells me settlers roam freely here, often under the protection of the Israeli police. Their aim, he insists, to drive Palestinians from their homes and ultimately from the occupied West Bank. In Israel's current government, far-right national security minister Itamar Ben- Gvir, a former settler leader himself, previously convicted of supporting terrorism and inciting anti-Arab racism. Others denying Palestinians very existence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: While you and I have been talking, I'm just getting an urgent update on my phone here, local sources. Settlers storm Mount Al-Arma in the town of Beita, protected by the occupation forces.

ITAMAR BEN-GVIR, MINISTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY OF ISRAEL: The policy is clear. It's no secret. They want to displace this area. We just have to defend ourselves and defend our land. We will die here. Where else will we go?

(END VIDEO CLIP) A short drive away and in full view of an encroaching settlement, we meet Ibrahim and Ahmed's family, wives, daughters and sisters, mourning their loss, yet stoic and proud.

KHITAM WADI: My husband loved his land. He defended his land. And we will continue to do that so long as we are alive.

ANDERSON: Tell me about Ahmed.

WADI: Ahmed was just like his dad, a hero, a brave man with a strong heart. As long as there's someone like Ben-Gvir supporting you and encouraging you to carry out attacks, of course, violence is going to increase.

[14:10:09]

ANDERSON: In the shadow of that violence, life goes on. For some, like these women, intimidation making them more intent on staying. But for others, like Rabia and little Abdul Rahman, this time it's too much.

RABIA RAHMAN: It is so bad. I want to carry on , but what we can do?

ANDERSON: They moved to Khosrow six years ago, escaping settler violence that took away their father's life. Now, being driven out of their home again.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

ANDERSON: And we've spoken to the IDF, and we've asked them what they're doing to reinforce their assets on the ground to support Palestinians, because that's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to be there to support the population in the occupied West Bank and they said that they are fully reinforced. I mean, they've got what they need there. The mayor of that town told me something, I think, which is really important. He said there's a direct connection between what's going on in Gaza and what's happening there with these youngsters, these innocent youngsters.

He said as this settler violence continues, he said he hears more and more from these young Palestinians in Khosrow and beyond, that they would rather die in combat going forward than be humiliated by being driven out of their homes and killed in their homes. So, this, we know that this is a real problem and the region knows this is a real problem as well. We've been talking about this for months.

COOPER: Becky Anderson, thanks very much. Appreciate it. Joining us right now is Michael Oren, former Israeli ambassador to the US. Ambassador Oren, thanks for being with us. How concerned are you about the situation in the West Bank and also along the northern border with Lebanon?

MICHAEL OREN, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Good evening. Hi. Good to be with you again always, Anderson. Well, about the recent item you just had with Becky, I would unequivocally condemn settler violence against innocent Palestinians in the West Bank, but let's put it also in context. Roughly 30 Israeli Jews have been massacred by Hamas and other Palestinian extremist youth groups, terrorists in the West Bank, Judea and Samaria since the beginning of the year, including the mother and two daughters of the Dea [ph] family. So, it's not just one-sided here. There's a battle going on there between extremists on both sides and everything, both of them have to be condemned and Israel has to defend itself.

I'm very concerned about the situation up north. We've talked about it before. The possibility of a multi-front war is a reality and Hezbollah as a fighting force is roughly 15 times that of Hamas. Hamas maybe has 10 to 15,000 rockets. Hezbollah has 150,000 rockets, many of which are buried under 200 villages in southern Lebanon. They put the rocket in the living room with the family there. The family is a human shield for that rocket. They have a fighting force, which has been fighting on the side of Bashar al-Assad in Syria for 10 years, experienced with massacring literally hundreds of thousands of Syrians, a true terrorist group, backed fully by Iran.

And what Hezbollah and its leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has been doing since the outbreak of the war in Gaza has been testing us. They've been shooting mortar shells across the border, some drone activity across the border. They've killed 5 of our soldiers so far, but they haven't unleashed the rockets yet. And the conventional wisdom here among security people is that Hezbollah is waiting to see how Israel advances with its ground incursion into Gaza. And at a certain point where it becomes clear that Hamas will be defeated, that is when Hezbollah will open up with its rockets.

The great deterrence will be the presence of these 2 very large U.S. naval flotillas there, the two U.S. aircraft carriers, the Eisenhower and the Ford. And the very clear, I think, intention of President Biden and Secretary of State Blinken to say to Iran, Hezbollah, and I quote them, don't, don't dare. And I think that the president is willing to use force to prevent Hezbollah and Iran from intervening in this war.

COOPER: Let me ask you about the situation in southern Gaza. Israel has pushed and recommended and urged Palestinians to leave Gaza City, to leave the north, move down to the south to avoid whatever is to come in a ground offensive. You know, U.N. relief officials we've talked to have said they want to get more supplies in. They're not being able to get enough in. The few trucks, we saw a few trucks with gasoline going in today across the Rafah border. Isn't it in Israel's best interest to build up the capabilities in the south in terms of shelter at the very least and food and supplies, water for those hundreds of thousands who have already moved? Wouldn't that encourage?at the very least and food and supply water for those hundreds of thousands who have already moved, wouldn't that encourage more to move down to the south?

[14:15:00]

OREN: I would think so. As a citizen, I'm not a spokesman for the state of Israel anymore, but I would say I would be in favour of relieving some of the human suffering in that area as much as possible if for no other reason. It's because the president and his secretary of state have asked that, they've asked us to help them help us help them help us by reducing as much as possible the human suffering element in this very tragic situation. Of course, we have no choice but to urge that population to move because the Israeli army is poised to enter into heavily mined, booby-trapped areas. I mean, as a former infantryman, I will tell you there is no greater nightmare than this scenario and most of the fighting will not be above ground, it'll be beneath the ground where Hamas has dug endless kilometers of tunnels and bunkers, all of which are mined and booby-trapped and Hamas's leadership is under hospitals, under schools. There could be no more nightmare situation.

The least we can do is move that population out of there because if they were to remain there, then the level of civilian casualties would be far, far, far greater. Note that the UN has said that they've had trouble

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Let me try and --

OREN: -- getting supplies across the Egyptian border, okay, not the Israeli border. Why have they talked about the Israeli border? Because the border crossing was destroyed by Hamas. I was in charge of that border crossing. I know it quite well. It's called the Vineyard of Peace, ironically named. Hamas killed the Israelis there. They destroyed the border. They've shelled the area toward the border. There's just no way that Israel could get those supplies through that border crossing.

COOPER: The tunnels, given your experience on the ground in Gaza before and Israel, the IDF's experience, how effective is this bombardment against those tunnels that Hamas has built?

OREN: Very little effectiveness. It's very difficult to destroy tunnels from the air. We've learned that now since 2008, since the first exchange, major exchange with Hamas in Gaza, and there almost is no alternative but to send engineering forces underground with explosives to blow them up. And we've tried many things. Israel has developed the world's most advanced tunnel detection technology. We share that technology with Homeland Security. America also faces tunnel challenges on its borders. We have built we have a subterranean metal wall that goes down many meters to block the tunnels from coming into our territory.

But here, one of the attacks on one of our bases was undertaken by Hamas terrorists using a tunnel, even with all of these precautions. And to go into these tunnels is to go into an underground labyrinth. And by the way, the tunnels have plenty of electricity, plenty of water. They're no short of anything. It is, as I've said often to you, Anderson, I was in charge of Gaza and I'll tell you everything you learn about human nature, humankind is a goodness. You got to throw out the window when you're dealing with Hamas. They're completely, completely different. They will use their people as human shields, use the hostages as human shields. They will even shell their own people. And I think they have already.

It's nothing that you and I could possibly understand. I was listening to your report before about the visit to the killing field of that former rave concert. And I haven't quite, I mean, as they say, I haven't gotten it together. I don't know how you do it. Totally, totally just so, so disturbing, nightmarish. That's what we're dealing with. Hamas, we have to defend ourselves against them.

COOPER: Yeah, Michael Oren, former ambassador. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Stay with CNN for our special coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:22:44]

SANCHEZ: An Israeli ground offensive in Gaza could be imminent and the country's military is continuing to bombard Gaza in response to a brutal attack by Hamas. There is new footage to share with you showing the aftermath of some of these strikes. Blocks decimated and buildings levelled. And in the south, the Rafah border crossing into Egypt is still closed as border authorities have yet to repair the damage from an airstrike. Keep in mind, that crossing is the main point of departure for evacuees and a critical entrance for arriving humanitarian supplies. In northern Israel, fighting with Hezbollah in Lebanon has been intensifying.

Today, Israel ordered 28 villages near the Lebanese border to evacuate. All of this as the U.S. is moving a second carrier strike group into the region. The presence of 2 of the U.S. Navy's most powerful warships meant to send a message to Iran and its proxies, do not get involved. The U.S., Brianna, very closely watching the messaging, not only from Tehran, but from Hezbollah in Lebanon as well.

KEILAR: Yeah, certainly they are very worried that this could expand. So, let's talk about this now with retired -- Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (Ret.) as a CNN military analyst and a former commanding general for the U.S. Army, Europe, and Seventh Army. When we talk about this potentially expanding, we see how it has already expanded, General. You can see, of course, Lebanon. There's shelling on either side of the border there. The West Bank, 58 Palestinians killed there. Syria's saying that 2 main international airports are non-operational after Israeli airstrikes. And of course, and Boris was talking about this, the U.S. sending its second carrier strike group into the region, and then you have Gaza, which, of course, we are watching so closely at this point in time. How big could this get?

LT GEN MARK HERTLING (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It could certainly get much bigger, Brianna. There are a lot of things going around. The Israeli defense forces are looking in multiple directions while they're attempting to focus primarily on Gaza, but they can't do that. They've had these kinds of enemies in the north and in the and in the eastern part of their countries. This is going to continue. And I think, what we're seeing is some persuasion by their enemies, particularly by Iran, to continue this kind of pressure on the state of Israel. The focus, again, is trying to be on Gaza, but it's not going to remain that way.

[14:25:09]

KEILAR: Unique, of course, to this conflict in Gaza is the tunnel system, and we've been talking about that today, Hamas's tunnel system. You can see, this is a diagram of it, just so people can see. They run under buildings, right? They are connected to these buildings. They're connected to apartment buildings. They're connected to homes. How is Israel going to target this?

HERTLING: Yeah, first, Brianna, what I would say is to ensure your listeners and your watchers don't see this very simplistic diagram as an indication of what the tunnel complexes are like. They are extremely complex. They go for miles, hundreds of miles, underneath the three major cities within Gaza and in other places. They are deeply buried, some more than a couple of hundred feet underground. They have quick turns and complex weaves throughout the cities, where Hamas can establish fortified positions, defensive positions. They can move very easily, not only from above-ground buildings into these tunnels, but underground as well.

This is the IDS worst nightmare. When you're planning an operation as a commander in this, it's extremely difficult to fight these kind of tunnel complexes, and what I mean by that is we trained some US soldiers on cave complexes that we came across in Iraq and Afghanistan. When you're talking about a force going into these tunnels, they go in in one direction and can only usually come out in the same direction. They are in a single stack of a line. You can't mass a force against an enemy force when you're going against a defensive position. You're crouched over, you can't see. The enemy has an advantage, and in our training, we saw cave complexes that were similar to these tunnels, where 3 or 4 or 5 soldiers could hold off an invading force of hundreds and more for long periods of time.

We saw that in Ukraine, in Mariupol, where tunnel complexes existed under the Azovstal plant, and the Ukrainians held off the Russians for months with a very relatively small group of people. So, this is an infantryman's worst nightmare.

KEILAR: And that is why you are seeing Israel trying controversially to move the civilian population or urging them to evacuate south. So, this is, of course, the population here. Gaza City in the north, of course, is the largest, the most populous city, and this is the evacuation map. They're trying to urge folks there, and a lot of them are moving, as we understand it, south of Wadi Gaza, south of those wetlands, into the southern part of the Gaza Strip there. You know, I think the assumption for many is that they will not be able to return home, maybe at all.

Certainly, I think, considering some of the damage to these areas, we know they won't be able to return home anytime soon. Is it inevitable, General, that the southern crossing with Egypt has to be opened to these people who are massing in the south?

HERTLING: Yeah. Either it has to be opened or more UN and other emergency relief agencies should get in there. But at the same time, Brianna, you're gonna see literally hundreds of thousands of people around that southern crossing. And just to put this in perspective, you're in Washington, D.C. From the very top, where Gaza City is, to that crossing point at Rafah in the bottom of Gaza, or in the south of Gaza, is 25 miles. That's like going from the Washington Monument to Manassas, Virginia on 1 road with 100,000 or more people trying to execute that over rubbled cities. It's very difficult with no support. And these are individuals, the Palestinians, who are trying to get out, the women and children specifically, are scared, they're anxious, they know they're not gonna be going back home because many of their apartments have already been levelled.

So, they're just looking for a means to get out and a means to be saved. With all the things going on around them, that 25-mile trek is just your worst nightmare. So those are the kind of things that are happening. And you would think that the Israeli military would try and support the continued flow of the refugees. But in some cases, it doesn't appear like they're doing much help. Of course, they're being prevented. The refugees are being prevented by Hamas themselves who are setting up roadblocks and continuing to rubble and also setting up explosive devices to further scare the citizens. Again, I can only put it that this would be a civilian, a mother, the children, this would be their worst nightmare.

KEILAR: Yes, and in the South, we're hearing this. No food, really, no water, certainly very much dwindling supplies and dwindling supplies of fuel as well. It's obviously at a critical point there.