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Israel Preps Next Stage Of War Against Hamas In Gaza; Interview With Rep. Larry Bucshon (R-IN): Jim Jordan's Bid For Speaker Of The House; IDF Fighter Jets Strike Hezbollah Targets In Lebanon. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired October 16, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Well, there's a lot, obviously a lot of concern about what is to come here as IDF soldiers are preparing for what could be a prolonged and intense ground fight in Gaza. More than 300,000 Israeli reservists have been called up. CNN's Nic Robertson was able to speak with some of those soldiers as they get ready for what's ahead. He's live for us in Sderot, Israel, about a mile east of Gaza. Nic, what did you hear from them?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, this this is really interesting, Anderson. I talked not only to some of the troops that are -- that potentially could be going into Gaza this this time whenever the order comes through, but also some that were involved in the last incursion back in 2014. You know and there's a recognition here that perhaps Israel is in something of a catch 22 position.

Because Hamas can hide out behind civilians who don't evacuate the areas, as the IDF asked them to and therefore the harder you go after Hamas, the more civilians potentially get injured. The bigger the international outcry, you're forced to back off from attacking Hamas and you don't entirely defeat them. The training, nevertheless, to try to achieve beyond that and crush Hamas. That's really well underway then. This is what we saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Close to Gaza, preparations underway for a much anticipated ground offensive. Troops from different units training together. There is an urgency here. They have to be ready, fast.

ROBERTSON: Right now this is a rehearsal if and when there's an incursion, these troops could be at the front of it. Tanks are for this practice model ones right now, followed by infantry and combat engineers are combined for spearheading an incursion.

ROBERTSON (voice over): If they do, Major Ofek will be near the front.

MAJOR OFEK, GIVATI BRIGADE COMMANDER (through translator): We expect to go to war, we expect to destroy the terrorist organization, Hamas, kill its governments and kill every last terrorist. That's what we plan to do and that's how it will be. ROBERTSON (voice over): The last time the IDF went into Gaza targeting Hamas leaders was 2014. Ariel Bernstein was 21 in the Special Forces, one of the first to cross the border.

ARIEL BERNSTEIN, FORMER ISRAELI COMBAT SOLDIER We were just afraid that there's something waiting for you at every corner.

ROBERTSON (voice over): But his experiences then have left him questioning the tactics today. Back then, like now, the IDF warned civilians to leave and Hamas told them to stay. Bernstein says when he went it there were civilians. But says he was told, only Hamas remained.

BERNSTEIN: Whoever you see, is basically engaged in fighting or is involved in fighting, and therefore you don't need to make a difference anymore between civilians and Hamas operatives.

ROBERTSON (voice over): In many ways, Israel's actions are playing out, just as they have in the past. 2021 gun positions freshly dug back in use. And in Gaza, the civilian death toll -- according to Palestinian health officials -- already higher than in 2014. And like then, Israel is already facing huge international pressure to avoid more civilian casualties.

[15:35:00]

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: What we are doing is saying privately what we've said publicly, which is that all Military operations should be conducted consistent with law of war, that civilians should be protected.

ROBERTSON (voice over): The problem the IDF says it faces just like 2014, Hamas will be hiding among civilians.

MAJOR DORON SPIELMAN, IDF SPOKESPERSON: The whole situation we're talking about with Gazan civilians forcibly embedded is another element of Hamas. Hamas has to be fully defeated.

ROBERTSON: So the responsibility is on them and not you.

SPIELMAN: The responsibility is on Hamas for their own civilians. Our responsibility is to eliminate Hama's capabilities completely.

ROBERTSON (voice over): Major Ofek pausing during training in a mocked up Palestinian town says they don't hurt innocence only terrorists, but admits if he is sent into Gaza, avoiding civilian deaths won't be easy.

ROBERTSON: Do you think it's possible that a fight Hamas without civilians getting injured?

OFEK (through translator): We're concerned with overthrowing the Hamas regime and killing the terrorists who are currently in Gaza, if it will be difficult, it will be difficult, not easy.

ROBERTSON (voice over): Bernstein worries past mistakes are being repeated, and Hamas will survive.

BERSTEIN: As we get used to these rounds of violence in Gaza and the doctrine that says, the more force we use, the less they'll mess with us. Which I want to say, has not been proven in any way so far, because it just makes Hamas stronger, in my opinion.

ROBERTSON (voice over): For Israelis, it's a Catch 22. The harder you hit Hamas, the more innocent civilians die and the greater the international pressure to stop the attacks, leaving Hamas to fight Another day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (on camera): And of course, that's the primary concern of the 10s, if not many, potentially hundreds or so of thousands of troops who are waiting for that order, Anderson. They're out here in this -- in this militarized zone close to the border of the Gaza, waiting for their politicians to make that call.

COOPER: Nic Robertson, thanks very much. CNN a special live coverage continues after a break.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Congressman Jim Jordan says he has made his case and is converting key holdouts in his bid to be the next speaker of the House. So far, he has flipped five reluctant Republicans in his conference, and he says that he's confident he'll get the 217 he needs before tomorrow's vote on the House floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM JORDAN (R-OH): We will go to Florida tomorrow. It's not about pressure on anybody. Just about we got to have a speaker. You can open the House and do the work of the American people and help our dearest and closest friend Israel, if you don't have a speaker. The only way to do this is the way the founders intended is you, you have the vote tomorrow. We've said it for 12:00 and I feel real good about it.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you have more than one ballot if you don't get to 217 on the first?

JORDAN: We're going to elect the speaker tomorrow. That's what I think is going to happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: You know, we should be clear. He's made it clear that he's going to the floor even without the 217 in the hope that he will get there. Joining us now, we have Republican Congressman Larry Bucshon of Indiana. All right, Sir, so what if -- and we're expecting multiple rounds tomorrow. What if he doesn't get there tomorrow? What if he doesn't get the votes? Then who steps in to try? REP. LARRY BUCSHON (R-IN): Well, first of all, I think he will get the

votes. You outlined some of the key converts today. You know, I mean, it's up to Jim to make his case to people who are still reluctant to vote for him for speaker. But I'm pretty confident that Jim Jordan will be our speaker tomorrow. But you know, worst case scenario, if he doesn't get the votes, then of course we'll have to start from scratch, but I don't think that's going to happen.

KEILAR: OK, so you previously supported Steve Scalise. You moved your support then to Jordan after Steve Scalise's bid failed. What is it going to take for your colleagues who have not made that move to change their minds?

BUCSHON: Well, I mean, I don't want to speak for them. They have to have you have that conversation --

KEILAR: But have you talked to them? I mean, are they telling you sort of like what their concerns are and what needs to be assuaged?

BUCSHON: Well I mean, I think you have to look at the fact that Congressman Jordan has been in the House Republicans for a long time. And some of them, yes, are talking about, you know, things that happened during Speaker Boehner's reign and Speaker Ryan's reign as House Speakers. And they have some animosity towards the things that occurred with the Freedom Caucus then. Of course, Congressman Jordan helped found the Freedom Caucus.

But I think today is a different day. Congressman Jordan has been a great chairman. He's done all kinds of things for House Republicans. He's was a big supporter of Speaker McCarthy. So I think it's a different day. But they have to have those individual conversations. But mostly it's about, I think, historical things that happened with the Freedom Caucus back when Speaker Boehner was in office and Speaker Ryan.

KEILAR: So like long time grudges in a way for what has happened in the past.

BUCSHON: I think that's the gist of it. Most of it, yes.

KEILAR: So a possible shutdown next month if Congress doesn't act. I do imagine that in some way that that may be something that could weigh on the minds of some people in your party. We just had two Republicans on who have been Jim Jordan the whole way here. One of them, Congressman Russ Fulcher, said a shutdown will definitely be on the table in a Jordan led House. The other, Congressman, Keith Self, said a Jordan led House would pass a CR quickly. Which one of them is right?

[15:45:00]

BUCSHON: Well, I think it's the latter. I don't think that we will have a shutdown. Everybody knows that that's very destructive. We've done that. Look, I've been in Congress since 2011, though it it's never worked either for the country and it's never worked politically. So you don't political goals based on shutting down the government. So I take Jim Jordan at his word. He thinks we should pass a CR

through April and then have a further discussion about our appropriations bills and get the House and the Senate together and pass government funding the way we should have done already.

KEILAR: How much do you worry about how -- what's been very chaotic -- this protracted GOP infighting? How much do you worry about how this inability to put up a leader in the house is making America look weak on the world stage?

BUCSHON: Well, I don't think it makes America look weak, but let me just say this. I travel all over the world and it makes people nervous, no doubt about it. I mean, in Europe, in Asia, places that I've been, they follow American politics very closely. And I do think it is very important that we get a House Speaker ASAP. And I've said that for the last couple of weeks. I supported speaker McCarthy. I thought it was a bad idea. I think historically it's going to go down as a bipartisan failure. We had eight people on our side, of course, that led this, but we also had every Democrat in the House vote to remove the speaker of the House. So it's going to be historically a bad precedent.

KEILAR: You think this is -- wait -- you think this is going to go down as a bipartisan failure?

BUCSHON: I really do, yes. I think it's going to be mostly on the eight people and the House Republicans. But I do think institutional wise history will say that removing a House Speaker with 208 minority votes was a bad idea. Yes, I do believe that. But again, let me just say, you know, this is on Republicans. We had Republicans that brought up the vote. But I do think his history will write that it's bipartisan.

KEILAR: But you're in the majority. Sir, you're in the majority and the majority elects the speaker. So it's up.

BUCSHON: That's correct.

KEILAR: So it's up -- I mean, just historically it's up to the majority. That's just the way it goes. It is the responsibility of the majority party. Why put that -- why put that on the minority party?

BUCSHON: Well, it is the responsibility to elect the speaker. That's true. But that's not what we did. What we did is for the first time in U.S. history is we removed the speaker. So you know, yes, if we didn't get the Republican votes to --

KEILAR: But why not just own that? I mean, shouldn't just -- why not just own that?

BUCSHON: Well, I think we have.

KEILAR: If that's what your party did.

BUCSHON: I think we have. But I think -- I'm talking about history of the House of Representatives going forward. I don't think history will write that it was a good idea to remove the House Speaker regardless of who started it.

KEILAR: Congressman Larry Bucshon, we really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.

BUCSHON: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Thank you.

KEILAR: And still to come, why Canada is now advising its citizens in Lebanon to flee the country. We'll have our special live coverage returning after a quick break.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Tense moments on Israel's northern border. Today, the Israeli Government ordered the evacuations of 28 villages near Lebanon after Hezbollah fighters launched rockets over the weekend. We also learned today that Swiss Airlines is suspending flights to Beirut until October 28th. And Canada's Foreign Minister is urging citizens -- its citizens to leave Lebanon while commercial flights are still available.

CNN's Ben Wedeman is in southern Lebanon right now. Ben, we've seen exchanges of fire between Hezbollah and Israeli military on pretty regular basis. What's the situation now?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But at the moment it's relatively calm. But yes, what we've seen is certainly over the last three or four days is that Hezbollah has been launching on average about five strikes a day on Israeli military positions and others.

Now today they put out a video showing their fighters using rifles to take out surveillance cameras in various spots around the wall and the border that separates Lebanon and Israel. In addition to that, they're also putting out videos showing very precise strikes by guided missiles, hitting tanks and other positions, also with surveillance and communications equipment as well.

At this point, it seems neither side seems eager to actually engage in a full scale shooting war. But it certainly does seem that Hezbollah at least wants to show that as the fighting, the war continues in Gaza, that they're doing more than simply issuing condemnations and fiery rhetoric. They're also shooting -- Anderson.

COOPER: And Iran's foreign minister warned today that this war moving to other fronts could soon be, in their words, unavoidable. Is that the sense you're hearing there?

WEDEMAN: I think the sense here is that Iran will make the ultimate decision. Iran being the main backer and supplier of weaponry to Hezbollah, that Iran will make the final decision to do so. And certainly the Iranian Foreign Minister who's been making a tour of capitals here in the Middle East, he's been in Beirut, Damascus, Baghdad and Qatar is sort of his rhetoric is starting to -- initially, for instance, when he was in Lebanon, he said, when he met with the Lebanese Prime Minister, that his priority of his visit is to -- is to maintain calm in Lebanon.

[15:55:00]

But certainly increasingly he is sending the message that if Israel intensifies, continues what they call their aggression on Gaza, that there is a definite possibility that other fronts may open. And certainly in terms of those other fronts, no front is ripper than this one for opening -- Anderson.

COOPER: And just in terms of weaponry -- from the 2006 fight between Israel and Hezbollah, their -- Hezbollah has the amount of weapons, the accuracy, I mean the strength of those weapons has increased dramatically, hasn't it?

WEDEMAN: And not only that, I mean, the Israelis say they have as many as 150,000 rockets and missiles. Now obviously Hezbollah isn't going to say that. We do know that that the leader of Hezbollah said that he has 100,000 men ready to fight Israel. But yes, in terms of accuracy, training -- let's not forget Hezbollah fighters got lots of training in urban warfare in Syria. So, the Hezbollah of 2023 is far better prepared for war than it was in 2006. And even then, it was pretty well prepared -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes, Ben, thanks very much. Appreciate it. Thanks for joining me.

I'll be back tonight at 8:00 with more from the region. Thanks for joining us. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right after short break.