Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Interview With Sen. Mark Kelly (D-AZ); U.S. Assesses Israel Not Responsible For Gaza Hospital Blast; Interview With Rep. Mike Lawler (R-NY); House Republicans Struggle Again to Elect Speaker. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired October 18, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: We said that questioning whether there would be a second vote. Now there was a second vote, and he did worse. He lost net two. So, yesterday, he lost 20. Today, he lost 22.

One of the questions that we have been asking is whether, once they gavel this vote, whether David Joyce of Ohio would try to offer a resolution giving Patrick McHenry more powers. My understanding -- I'm just getting a text -- is that that is not going to happen right away.

And we will certainly want to hear from Manu and our other colleagues who walk these halls every day. But my understanding is, it's not going to happen right away.

In fact, Manu, let me go to you, because I'm just want to tell you this text that I'm getting is that -- and you're probably hearing it from members who are coming off the floor right now, that -- Manu, you're probably hearing from members who are saying that the Jordan folks are very much lobbying many in the Republican Conference to hold off and not vote right now to empower Patrick McHenry.

So, what is likely going to happen -- and you telegraphed this earlier -- is that, once this vote is gabbled closed, they're going to go back and talk again, like they have done after every one of these, and that David Joyce of Ohio is going to try to make the case for why it's time to move on for Jim Jordan -- move on from Jim Jordan, rather, and talk about giving Patrick McHenry the power to get the basic functions of the United States government done, at least in the short term.

What are you hearing?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think we can expect Republicans to meet behind closed doors.

In fact, here's Congressman Mike Lawler. I think we can get a chance to speak to him.

Mr. -- yes, yes, we're on right now. We're actually live right now, Mr. Lawler.

Tell us what you think the next steps are going to be here. I mean, if Jordan goes to a third ballot, you're still going to vote against him. Is that right? And if he continues to go in the wrong direction, what's next?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Look, it's clear he doesn't have the votes. Obviously, it's up to him if he wants to put it to a third ballot.

I think you will see more folks dropping off on a third ballot. Here, there was a net loss of two. Four people who previously voted for him flipped, and two that didn't flipped back. But I don't -- I don't see the outcome changing here.

And so the question for Jim and for the conference is, how do we get back to work? Because that's the reality that we have to deal with. The American people sent us here to govern. They sent us here to focus on the issues that matter to them, from spending, to the border, to the international crises that we're dealing with in Israel and Ukraine.

And we have to get back to work. So, if the votes are not there at the moment for someone to be speaker, I think it's imperative that we empower Patrick McHenry to serve, at least for the time being, in that speaker role, so that he can get the House moving again on critical issues, including, obviously, needed additional financial support for Israel.

RAJU: There are two options here. One is that there can be a new speaker candidate. Two, you can vote on a resolution to empower Patrick McHenry.

What do you think needs to happen of those two options?

LAWLER: Look, we need to get to work.

So I think it is imperative that we pass the resolution empowering Patrick McHenry to serve as the temporary speaker. And, hopefully, we will be able to find consensus in short order on a speaker.

I continue to believe that Kevin McCarthy is the right person to lead this House. He never should have been removed as speaker. And, frankly, I reiterate, it's disingenuous of some of my Democratic colleagues to stand up there and say, for democracy and for the institution, and we're putting people over politics; 208 Democrats teamed up with eight Republicans to create this chaos.

So they can act like they played no role here, but they did. And so it is -- it's unfortunate where we are, but we have to get back to work. And so I think, in the immediate, we need to empower Patrick McHenry to serve as temporary speaker, so that we can do the work of the American people.

RAJU: So you would need Democrats to actually pass that resolution. How many Republicans do you think would support empowering Patrick McHenry?

And so how many -- and how many Democrats would you need, ultimately, to make that happen?

LAWLER: Look, I'm not going to put a number on it. The reality is, everybody has a responsibility here to get the House

back up and running, so that we can focus on the work of the American people, starting with additional aid to Israel to support them in this terrible time of need.

[13:05:00]

And I think Democrats need to look in the mirror here. They helped create this mess. So they're going to have to help get out of it. And if a resolution is put on the floor to give Patrick the ability to serve as a temporary speaker, it would be the height of hypocrisy for them to vote against it.

RAJU: When you look at the last two weeks, I mean, how concerned are you about how -- one, how this makes Republicans look, two, from a swing district like yours, that theirs ultimately could hurt you come next November and cost Democrat -- Republicans a key seat in a in a bellwether district?

LAWLER: Look, I have been very clear where I stand on this, where I stood on the potential of a shutdown, where I stood on the potential of a default.

I have been willing to work in a bipartisan way to get things done on behalf of the American people and to advance the ball forward. We have a lot of challenges in this country. And it's incumbent on everybody to act like an adult.

For me, my focus is on getting back to work. I believe, like I said, that Kevin McCarthy is the right person to lead the House. And, hopefully, my colleagues will come to that conclusion sooner than later.

But, as it stands right now, there are not enough votes for Jim Jordan to be speaker. And we need to get about the people's business.

RAJU: Before I let you go, obviously, there's so much happening.

On Israel, there's a big supplemental package, aid package, but $100 million -- and a billion dollars or so for Ukraine, for Israel and the like. There are some Republicans who wanted to keep that separate, who say that Ukraine should be not included as part of this package.

How do you feel? Is it important right now to pass what the administration is asking for, given the dire situation in Israel, and also in Ukraine?

LAWLER: Look, much like the C.R. that was passed, we cannot afford to hold things hostage here, OK?

There's broad consensus and support for Israel. And so we're going to need to move that as quickly as possible. Whoever the speaker is, whether it be Patrick or someone else, is going to have to negotiate with the White House. And that's just the reality of the situation.

We need to get to, obviously, 218 on the floor. So, that will happen in due time. Obviously, we would like to move as expeditiously as possible.

RAJU: Thank you for your time, sir. I appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

RAJU: So, Dana, as you hear that from Congressman Mike Lawler, someone who has come from a swing district, a bellwether district in New York, a freshman Republican who has been very outspoken at the Republicans who kicked out Kevin McCarthy, making clear there Jim Jordan does not have the votes to become speaker of the House, even if he goes to a third ballot, suggesting that this ultimately could cost him even more votes if he decides to go to a third ballot, and calling for the empowerment, a resolution to empower Patrick McHenry as speaker.

That is really what is going to be debated behind closed doors this afternoon by Republicans. But, as you can hear from Republicans like Mike Lawler, it's time to move on to that issue, because there is simply no other option, he believes, to electing a speaker of the House, and certainly not Jim Jordan, given the direction he's going here, Dana.

BASH: Yes.

And our viewers should understand that Mike Lawler is -- along with a couple other Republicans from the state of New York, is the reason Republicans have the majority right now, the slim majority that they have in the House.

Manu, thank you so much.

I want to go to Melanie Zanona and now.

And, Melanie, you heard Mike Lawler talking about this resolution to give Patrick McHenry more power. My understanding in the text messages that I'm getting is that we should not expect that to happen right away because they have to meet and there has to be a real discussion about why this should happen, from the perspective of people like Mike Lawler.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, that's exactly right.

It is an idea that is gaining steam in the GOP. It's also something that Democrats are discussing with Republicans. I talked to Steny Hoyer. he said he has had conversations with Republicans about this idea of empowering Patrick McHenry.

But I have also been told, Dana -- and it sounds like you have heard the same thing that Jordan's team is actively trying to kill the speculation.

BASH: Yes.

ZANONA: They have been working behind the scenes trying to encourage their supporters to vote against the resolution. And the idea here is that they want to show that there is no backup

plan, that there is no last resort, and that the only option is to elect a permanent speaker. And they want that person to be Jim Jordan.

But it's unclear at this point. Whether Jim Jordan is going to continue going through these rounds of votes on the House floor. I had been told that he does want to continue to fight it out. That's part of the reason also why his team is trying to kill this resolution.

But the anticipation, at least right now, is that they're going to get together, go behind closed doors once again, something we have seen a lot here on Capitol Hill these past few weeks, air their grievances, and try to figure out a path forward.

But the big picture right now is, they still have no speaker. There's still no consensus, and the House is paralyzed until they do, Dana.

[13:10:06]

(SIRENS BLARING)

BASH: Melanie, thank you so much.

It's a little loud out here. I apologize for that delay. Thank you for that great reporting.

And I am hearing exactly what you are, that a big reason why they're not moving to that resolution right now is because there is a lot of lobbying happening right now on the House floor among Jordan supporters, maybe Jordan himself, to not let that happen, at least in the short term -- Jake, back to you.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Thanks, Dana.

And, obviously, just to remind our viewers here in the United States and around the world, without a speaker of the House, which has never happened in the history of the United States, the House of Representatives cannot function in its normal way, which means that the legislative part of the U.S. government cannot function, which means that the U.S. government, to a degree, is kind of unable to function.

Which means that things that should be going on right now when it comes to the wars in the Middle East and in Ukraine, as well as the basic functions of the U.S. government -- we're about to -- the U.S. government is about to run out of money -- are not able to proceed.

The House Republicans are not able to pick a speaker. This has now been going on for roughly two weeks.

Let me bring in Anderson Cooper, who is in a part of the world that is paying a lot of attention to the fact that House Republicans are not able to get their act together and get 217 votes to pick a leader.

Anderson, you are just a few minutes away from President Biden having left Israel, where he was able to meet with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and talk to officials there. But Arab leaders called off their meetings with President Biden directly because of the explosion at the hospital in Gaza, an explosion that there seems to be mounting evidence was not caused by Israel.

Again, we were -- we do not have a definitive answer as to who caused it, but there does seem to be mounting evidence that it was actually caused by a rocket misfired by Islamic Jihad.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes, Jake, certainly the president's visit did not go as they had initially intended.

He left about two hours ago now from the ground from here in Israel. That planned meeting with El-Sisi from Egypt, King Abdullah, as well as Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, in Jordan, that did not take place, as you were just saying.

The president expressed unwavering support for Israel. He also cautioned Israel not to act out of revenge, paraphrasing his words, though he certainly supported Israel's right to defend itself in the wake of this horrific terror attack that occurred on October 7.

In terms of the explosion of the hospital, the U.S. has concluded -- the NSC, the National Security Council, had put out a statement a short time ago, saying they believe essentially the account that Israel has also concluded, that the explosion at the hospital hours ago, last evening, middle of the night here in -- actually, earlier in the evening in Israel, was, in fact, caused by a rocket by Islamic Jihad.

I -- we will have more than a second.

I want to bring in Nic Robertson, who's standing by in Sderot near the Gaza border.

Nic, what are you seeing right now?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, we're hearing some very loud explosions from here, Anderson. They seem to be outgoing artillery towards Gaza.

I would say in the last maybe hour or so, the pace has picked up a little, certainly more than we have had for -- had for a while. And we have also seen a couple of outgoing rockets from here fired from Gaza that we know went to Central Israel, because the sirens went off and sounded the alerts there.

So it is relatively quiet, but the tempo of the artillery is picking up a little bit this evening.

COOPER: Nic, let's talk about what has occurred here over the last many hours just in terms of what the U.S. is now saying.

I want to read the statement from the National Security Council from Adrienne Watson a short time ago, saying: "While we continue to collect information, our current assessment, based on analysis of overhead imagery, intercepts and open-source information, is that Israel is not responsible for the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday."

[13:15:01]

Officials also told CNN separately that the initial evidence gathered by the U.S. intelligence suggest that it was in fact a rocket launched by the Palestinian group Islamic Jihad. Israel has put forward what they say is proof showing a number of rockets being fired, they say, by Islamic Jihad from, I believe it was a cemetery location, the arc of most of those rockets going by and, in some cases, over this hospital.

They say one of those rockets malfunctioned, fell from the sky. They say there are not craters, which would indicate an Israeli airstrike with the power of the Israeli munitions. They said that rocket that was fired would have had a lot of rocket fuel in it, which would have explained the flames and the burning damage that we see in cars in the parking area.

They say that errant missile, when it landed, landed in a parking garage, not on the hospital itself, there was shrapnel on the hospital, which -- which is consistent with shrapnel from a rocket itself. Israel has also put forward what they say are intercepts or an intercept between what they say are two Hamas -- members of Hamas discussing what would they say was a rocket from Islamic Jihad.

And they talk about the shrapnel from the rocket, according to them, was consistent with one of their rockets and not with Israeli rockets. Again, CNN cannot independently verify that, it's important to point out, but, certainly, the U.S. intelligence community now seems to be backing up what Israel is saying.

We're obviously trying to, as best as possible, verify it in whatever way we can over time. But that is the situation the ground right now. Obviously, Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue to claim that this was an attack by the IDF.

But let's talk, Nic, about what this means, because the what did come out of the president's visit, besides unwavering support to Israel, was a pledge of $100 million for humanitarian assistance and, according to the -- to President Biden, an agreement by Israel to allow humanitarian supplies to go into the south of Gaza, food, water, medicine, as long as it does not fall into the hands of Hamas.

And if it is taken by Hamas, they say there will be repercussions for that in terms of future aids of humanitarian assistance.

Dana Bash, let's get back -- back to you.

BASH: Thank you, Anderson.

And I just want to note, here on Capitol Hill, that you just saw Patrick McHenry, the temporary speaker, gavel the House of Representatives into recess. That is what is happening right now, as they try to figure out what to do next with still no speaker 15 days in.

I want to talk, though, to Democratic Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona.

Senator, you were among the senators who went on a CODEL, on a trip...

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): That's right.

BASH: ... just a couple of days ago to Israel.

Before we get there, or maybe as part of that discussion, the fact that there is no speaker, the fact that there is -- was a candidate who actually got fewer votes just now than he did yesterday...

KELLY: Right.

BASH: ... and the House can't pass even just a basic resolution, a nonbinding resolution, in support of Israel...

KELLY: Yes.

BASH: ... what does that -- what message does that send to the world?

KELLY: I mean, the dysfunction -- I mean, the dysfunction in the House is unprecedented.

And we have got so many demands on us right now, whether it's Ukraine, Israel, border security. I represent the state of Arizona. We have got a crisis at the border. I mean, we need a functioning House of Representatives. They need to get their stuff together and get a speaker.

BASH: Let's talk about what happened or what we believe happened or didn't happed at that hospital in Gaza yesterday.

The Biden National Security Council is making the assessment that it was not an Israeli airstrike. I know you're a new member of the Senate Intelligence Committee. You're awaiting an all-senators briefing.

KELLY: Right.

BASH: But what can you tell us about what American intelligence is at this point?

KELLY: Well, what I can tell you is what the NSC just said, which was, all indications are that this was not Israel.

So they have got overhead imagery. They have got intercepts of voice communications that this came from within Gaza. That's what is indicated right now. I'm going to get a briefing on this in about an hour-and-a-half. So I don't have all the details.

Let me just say, though, I think it's important to point out that Hamas committed a heinous, brutal, barbaric operation against the Israelis, women, children, over 1,000 people just murdered, and in a way that I have never seen before.

When myself and my colleagues went over there on Sunday, we spent about 13 hours in Tel Aviv meeting with the entire Israeli leadership and the ambassador, or the charge d'affaires, because we don't have an ambassador because of the United States Senate right now.

[13:20:03]

But just the stories are just so heartbreaking, I mean, just a horrific attack. And just to see these folks in this hospital just injured and killed is just another point to be made about Hamas and how horrible of an organization it is, and that Israel -- Israel has to eliminate this threat.

BASH: You -- when we were talking before we came on, you have seen some pretty horrible things in your life...

KELLY: I have.

BASH: ... unfortunately, personally.

KELLY: Yes, I spent 25 years in the United States Navy.

BASH: And then in the Navy.

KELLY: What happened to Gabby.

Sunday, for me personally, felt like few other days in my lifetime, I mean, just account after account, and then meeting with the American families, the parents of children that are now hostages, and just the uncertainty that they have. We're going to do everything we can to get them back to their families.

And we're doing that now through diplomacy. And we have got other assets on the ground here. I have met with the special envoy for hostage negotiations, who I worked with to get Brittney Griner out of Russia. He's there on the ground now. And that's going to be helpful.

BASH: One last question.

I have to ask about the fact that the Egyptian and the Jordanian leaders canceled their face-to-face meetings with President Biden, who went to the region. The United States, you in Congress, have approved a billion dollars in aid to Jordan. Excuse me. They have gotten international aid, including from the U.S. Egypt is getting $170 million.

What does that say to you?

KELLY: Well, first of all, let me say, the president going and going this quickly sends a message, that this is important to us, that we're going to stand with our allies.

Jordan has been an ally of ours. We have worked with Egypt. I think it's disrespectful, and it's not productive. I mean, they need to join with us to do what is necessary to not only defeat Hamas, but support the humanitarian crisis that's starting and that currently exists within Gaza and Southern Gaza.

They need to be partners with us. And ignoring and not attending a meeting with the president is just wrong. BASH: Senator Mark Kelly, thank you so much.

KELLY: Thank you.

BASH: Appreciate it -- Anderson, back to you.

COOPER: Dana, thanks.

I want to bring in Nic Robertson, who is in Sderot again. We talked to him just a short time ago.

Nic, first of all, talking about what you have been seeing. And then I want to talk to about the situation south of Gaza.

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERTSON: Yes, you're probably hearing it, Anderson, that pickup in artillery.

We're hearing the outgoing artillery going into Gaza at the moment. We're hearing some very loud detonations of artillery impacts inside Gaza. You can literally hear -- from where we stand, you can hear the shells whistling before that huge impact.

So that suggests to me that the impacts are not too deep from where we stand into Gaza. We're a mile from the border. So these are perhaps hitting in that -- in that border area. Very hard to tell specifically, but definitely an uptick in the last 30 or 40 minutes of artillery strikes going into Gaza.

COOPER: Nic, let me ask you.

Just over the many -- the last week that you had been there, how common is artillery fire, as opposed to other forms of bombing in Gaza?

ROBERTSON: It is relatively common, and it cycles up and cycles down.

We were with an artillery battery a few miles to the south of where we are here. There were perhaps as many as a dozen to 20 mobile, big, heavy howitzers there. We think, from what we hear and from what we have seen in the past conflicts with Hamas in Gaza, there's another artillery position not far to our north here as well.

And we can hear shells going from both of these, as well as the occasional missile fire. It's not uncommon, but it is indicative of perhaps smaller targeting and perhaps what you might bring to bear on the battlefield if you were trying to shape the battlefield before an incursion.

That's not, I think -- I don't think we're at that moment precisely now, but that would also be to be expected if it were coming.

COOPER: Nic, let's talk about the south of Gaza.

As we know, hundreds of thousands of residents of Gaza have moved down to the south. There are also American citizens waiting by the Rafah border desperate to get out of Gaza. Just heard those explosions by you, Nic, as well.

The U.S. now is pledging $100 million in humanitarian assistance. There are trucks with humanitarian assistance on the Egyptian side of the border. Israel has said they will allow aid into the south, which is in response to pressure from President Biden.

[13:25:03]

Do we know when that may take place and how important that may be in determining what happens next on the ground in terms of any kind of an invasion?

ROBERTSON: Yes, I think is still to be determined, as we know Israel has said very clearly that they won't let any aid in, they won't let food, fuel, water, electricity go into Gaza across any of their border crossings as long as the hostages are being held.

But they are willing to allow -- and this was something that told President Biden today. They are willing to allow that humanitarian aid across from Egypt through the Rafah Crossing.

And I think a couple of takeaways I have had from today, from what we have heard publicly said, is, we're not hearing anything more about Palestinians in Gaza being allowed to go into Egypt. There's been very strong pushback from the Egyptian president, President Sisi, on that.

And I think one of President -- one of the things President Biden perhaps has not been able to do as well as he would have hoped to have done if he had been able to meet with President Sisi, with King Abdullah in Jordan, with the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, because that meeting was canceled, that he would have been able to be more persuasive, potentially, face to face to allow that -- to allow to get those countries to allow and push Hamas to get that humanitarian aid into Hamas.

Obviously, Israel is saying, look, that aid can't cross the border if it's going to fall in under the control of Hamas. But, also, for the Arab countries around here in this region, they also view the passing through of humanitarian aid not just something that can help Palestinians, but also, in a way, a potential sop for Israel to -- because Israel says let the aid come through -- a potential sop that would allow Israel some cover, if you want to use that language, to prosecute potentially a ground offensive.

And I don't think, from where we're at with the discussions and the tensions at the moment, that these nations like Jordan, like Egypt really want to be seen to be in any way giving support or cover for a continued offensive.

And we heard that today coming from the Saudi foreign minister, who in Jeddah, chaired a meeting of the Organization of Islamic countries, a very big organization. And they're calling for a humanitarian pause. And we know, at the United Nations today, there was also at the Security Council a call, a motion for a humanitarian pause in the conflict.

And it was the United States that voted that down. So there's a real sense here of whose pressure is going to be applied more? If you let humanitarian aid in, then that gives Israel the opportunity to say that the humanitarian needs of the Palestinian people are being met and, therefore, press ahead with a ground offensive.

And that's perhaps one of the only points of leverage that these countries that surround Israel, Egypt, Jordan here, have to apply pressure -- there's another detonation there in Gaza -- to apply pressure on Israel about their situation. They don't have many ways to pressure Israel.

But on the humanitarian aid, potentially, that is one of their only leverage points at the moment -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes.

Nic Robertson in Sderot.

We're going to take a short break. And our coverage here and events in the United States continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:30:00]