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Sources: 2 American Hostages Being Released By Hamas; House GOP Now Holding Secret-Ballot Vote On Whether Jordan Should Drop Out Of Speaker Race; Rep. Dan Meuser (R-PA) Discusses Speakership Battle, Jordan Failing To Win 3rd Vote; Manhunt For Suspect Who Shot Maryland Judge Dead At His Home. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired October 20, 2023 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: These are all things that we've heard considered. Certainly, Hamas is going to try to use them to their benefit.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And, Jim, I mean, the mother is reportedly here in poor health. Let's just consider the state of hospitals right now in Gaza. The state of medical care, it is awful.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN MAX ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, even the worst hostage takers -- and let's put Hamas into that category -- see the risks of having an American die on their hands.

Particularly, if it's not, say, from a strike, right? Given that the hostages are distributed around Gaza right now but dies in their hands in ill health.

So they would see the benefit, again, to them, and let's look at it through that prism, of releasing them because they just have less value, right?

We've seen some precedent for that. For instance, in Iran, when Americans held in Iran, had health issues, it made it more likely for them to be released. Oftentimes, still, for something in return.

But that Iran knew they didn't want to have an American dying on their hands because they might face bigger consequences.

It's not getting to their morality or their sense of altruism for that hostage but more a calculation that, wait a second, we may pay a heavy price for this if this American mother dies in our hands, in our possession.

KEILAR: Obviously, the medical care that they will receive outside of Gaza will be far superior.

SCIUTTO: No question. No power, no water, even basic, you know, disinfectant supplies, all this kind of stuff in short supply there.

KEILAR: Jim, thank you so much.

Alex, thank you as well.

And to Kaitlan as well in Tel Aviv. We appreciate it.

Ahead, the House of Representatives, it is paralyzed. Here we are yet another day, no speaker. And so apparently, Jim Jordan's bid for the job is also at a standstill.

Republicans meeting as we speak on the Hill and we are following the very latest.

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[13:35:47]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Happening right now, more breaking news from Capitol Hill. House Republicans are voting on a secret-ballot election to determine whether Jim Jordan should stay in or drop out of the speaker's race after his failed third attempt to get enough votes.

KEILAR: So let's get now to CNN congressional correspondent, Lauren Fox.

Lauren, what happens next? I mean, I guess the question, too, is what is Jim Jordan's threshold at this point for public humiliation? Was there going to be a fourth vote today? Because he keeps losing by more and more.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the conference is really divided, whether or not you are a supporter of Jim Jordan or not on whether or not, whether he should keep going with this fight.

Obviously, some of his closest allies had been warning last night that they would just continue with votes throughout the weekend.

But you also had people warning that if you're trying to get votes, the way not to do it is to basically keep members in a pressure cooker and try and try to grind it out on the House floor.

Like you mentioned, right now, behind closed doors, Troy Nehls told us that lawmakers are voting by secret ballot on whether or not Jim Jordan should continue with his bid.

And that, at the beginning of the meeting, Nehls said that Jim Jordan said that this is a step that he wanted to take.

But it's going to be really interesting what the numbers are on that secret ballot. We've already seen that, repeatedly, Jim Jordan continues to lose support on the floor.

It was 20, then it was 22. Today it was 25. And the expectation was that number was only going to grow.

You know, there was a very revealing moment yesterday when Jim Jordan had a meeting with more than a dozen holdouts and they essentially delivered the message to him that it's over, that there was nothing he was going to be able to do to change their minds. Obviously, that was reaffirmed on the floor today as those holdouts

continued to vote against Jim Jordan.

Where does the conference go, though, if Jim Jordan drops out of this race? I think that that question is so uncertain.

Yesterday, they were entertaining potentially empowering Patrick McHenry temporarily.

But as they were in a conference meeting very similar to the one that is happening behind us today, they essentially decided, as a conference, that that was not the step that they wanted to take.

So it's so hard to imagine where this goes from here if the decision by the conference is that Jim Jordan needs to step aside.

SANCHEZ: So, Lauren, what have we heard about how Democrats are responding to all of this? Are they still open to the possibility of empowering Patrick McHenry if Republicans strike a deal with them?

FOX: I think a really revealing thing that we've seen today is that Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader, has spoken, not just once, but twice to reporters today.

Making very clear and making himself available to get across the point that Democrats, in his words, remain ready to work with Republicans to find a bipartisan solution.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like the message he's sending is that Democrats remain willing and able to help Republicans find some kind of path forward.

With the caveat, obviously, that they want to see Israel and Ukraine aid come to the floor. They also want to make sure the government doesn't shut down on November 17th when that deadline approaches.

So I think the message from Democrats today is we're still here, we're still willing to work.

But obviously, House Republicans have to bring that resolution to the floor. They are likely the ones who would have to start that process.

And, like I said, yesterday, after a three-hour conference meeting that got very heated, it became clear that House Republicans weren't quite ready to take that step.

Does that change today? I think that that's what we're going to be watching for.

SANCHEZ: A lot of Republicans adamantly against it, even though Jim Jordan was in support of it.

Lauren Fox, from Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

Let's dig deeper with Republican Congressman Dan Meuser of Pennsylvania. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us.

Obviously, it's a secret ballot so you are open to not telling us how you voted. But should Jim Jordan continue running for speaker?

REP. DAN MEUSER (R-PA): Well, I believe that it's really up to Jim Jordan. And that was the pledge I made to him.

[13:40:02]

So it was a secret ballot but I did vote yes. I did vote that Jim has the right to remain there until he's voted out by majority, 50-plus one, in our conference.

That is taking place as we speak. Perhaps, we will know within the next two to five minutes.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

MEUSER: Nevertheless, we've got to be starting the plan for Plan B because, as you mentioned, there are -- he is eroding votes on the House floor.

And there's a couple of possibilities. You know, from the business world, I like having plans. This is Plan A.

Plan B was considered, McHenry an extension there. Very temporary until we elected a speaker so we could keep the lights on and we could keep working while electing a speaker. I don't see a big problem with that.

But Plan C is having a new slate of candidates. And we have got to go back to the drawing board and start from square one and elect a speaker sooner rather than later.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, you told "Politico" you would consider running for speaker. Have you given more thought to that? Do you want to make your pitch right now on CNN?

MEUSER: Well, I am giving strong consideration to it. Because I do want to be part of the new leadership, as far as planning goes, not necessarily a participant.

But if I have an opportunity to run, I think I bring a unique perspective to it. I'm from the business world. I served as revenue secretary. And we need someone who truly is an inclusionary leader and speaker.

Meaning that all participants -- we only have a five-vote majority. All participants need to feel that their word matters, that their vote matters, that their position matters, not special privilege.

But anything that they receive needs to be in the interest of the conference. And that can be done.

I think I can bring that, particularly when it comes to legislation, when it comes to polls, when it comes to events, when it comes to fundraising, when it comes to communications.

All of that should be much more inclusionary so people feel as if they have an authorship of the direction that we are going on behalf of her constituents.

That's what a good speaker would do. And whether it's me or the next speaker, I want to make sure that that happens.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, that sounds a bit like an announcement. Have you made that pitch privately to key players, like Kevin McCarthy or Steve Scalise or others?

MEUSER: It's a little premature. I've had some conversations. I obviously wouldn't be seriously considering this if I wasn't getting some encouragement.

We will see. We will see where this vote goes and see what happens next.

But there are some excellent other individuals that I would be supportive of if they become the lead candidate. So there's still a lot of consideration to take place.

SANCHEZ: It does sound like you may, on paper, support Jordan, but you are inclined to the reality that he is likely not going to become the next speaker. The math is against him.

Do you think he realizes that? I'm wondering what the conversations were like in the room if folks were directly telling him, you are not going to be the next speaker.

MEUSER: There are certainly some saying that. And there are also some that say, hey, Jim, you are a fighter, hang in there, maybe we can make a case that people appreciate and understand.

But, you know, certainly, the math, as you stated, is beginning to work against him. He still has 194 votes. That's more than anybody else would get right now. So we shall see.

It could be we could be turning the page and going to Plan B or Plan C. And we will know for sure within the next few minutes.

SANCHEZ: There is, Congressman, a potential Plan D out there. And it's your colleague, Matt Gaetz. He triggered all of this, obviously.

He says that eight Republicans, who voted to remove Kevin McCarthy, are willing to face consequences, potentially censure, even removal from the conference if the holdouts are willing to switch their votes and support Jim Jordan.

Do you think that would be enough to get him elected?

MEUSER: No, I don't think it's going to persuade anyone. It's a little disingenuous. It's a little bit late. Frankly, it was almost written as an admission of guilt, as opposed to showing any contriteness or asking for forgiveness. Look, those eight, some of them my friends, they're going to remain my

friends, but I think they created severe problems for us. It's proven to be destructive.

Kevin McCarthy, there was no good reason to remove him. He was a good speaker. But that's in the past now and we're dealing with it.

But, yes, a letter like that, I think, was more self-serving than helpful.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, if you decide to put yourself forward as a candidate for speaker and you succeed and you become the next speaker of the House of Representatives, you have a difficult road ahead.

I'm wondering how you would go about trying to heal the wounds within your party, self-inflicted wounds.

[13:44:58]

MEUSER: Bring people together, politics of inclusion, lay out a plan that everybody feels comfortable with, and that has authorship within. And then begin executing and keep the information, the communication going, and put -- put our members first, not have the speaker be first.

We need more communications from our members. We need more activities, more ideas. That's how you avoid mistakes.

I learned that from business, by talking to a lot of customers, talking to the people that you represent, gain a consensus as well as possible, not everybody is going to get what they want, not even close, but that's how you avoid mistakes and you get the best policies possible.

SANCHEZ: Consensus seems very, very far in the distance.

Nevertheless, Congressman Dan Meuser, thank you so much for coming on. Please keep us posted if you decide to, in fact, nominate yourself as potential speaker.

MEUSER: Thanks. I wouldn't be nominating myself but --

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Someone else would do it.

MEUSER: You know what I mean. You get it.

SANCHEZ: Thank you so much, Congressman. I appreciate it.

MEUSER: I do. Thanks, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Right now, pivoting quickly, the search is on for a killer. Officials are hunting for a person who fatally shot a judge in Maryland. Ahead, we're going to talk to a judge whose own son was murdered by a

man that was targeting her. Stay with us.

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[13:50:59]

KEILAR: A Maryland judge gunned down in his driveway and now police are looking for a man whose divorce case was before Circuit Court Judge Andrew Wilkinson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN ALBERT, SHERIFF, WASHINGTON COUNTY, MD, SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: This was a targeted attack on Judge Wilkinson. We have identified Pedro Argote, 49, of Frederick, Maryland, as a suspect in this case. Argote is not in custody and is considered armed and dangerous.

The last night, initially, in the preliminary investigation, we had no idea as the information was coming in.

So we placed officers and troopers at the local judges here in the county at their residence, just as a precaution initially. And they stayed there through the night until this morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I want to bring in Judger Esther Salas, who made it her mission to get a law passed to protect federal judges and their families after her son, Daniel, was murdered by someone who was involved in one of her cases.

Judge, it seems like that was just yesterday so I can only imagine how that feels for you. And I know that you are thinking of Judge Wilkinson's family today.

This keeps happening. I mean, what do you worry is being missed at the state level here?

JUDGE ESTHER SALAS, U.S. DISTRICT COURT, NJ & SON MURDERED IN TARGETED ATTACK: Well, listen, first I do -- my thoughts and prayers are going out to Judge Wilkinson, his family, his loved ones, his colleagues and his friends. My husband, Mark, and I are just sending them prayers.

But, you know, we need to push for states -- a state court initiative across this country and the U.S. territories to enact laws, to enact laws that protect state and local judges.

There are over 30,000 of them, like Judge Wilkinson, serving, serving with distinction, with pride.

Judge Wilkinson has been serving since January of 2020. I read all he wanted to do was serve his community. He did serve his community. And now, in the wake of it, we are all mourning his death.

Something needs to be done across this great nation to protect judges at all levels. And we cannot just sit back and continue to see these tragedies unfold and these families' lives be impacted.

I am just thinking of his wife and his two children. And I know, I share with them, their pain. I feel it today.

KEILAR: And as we understand it, they were witness to this, which is -- makes it all the more appalling as they deal with their grief here.

Part of the federal law that you helped spearhead, it allowed judges and their families to get their personal information taken down so it wasn't available.

It also allowed them to access U.S. Marshals to get kind of security analyzed and that kind of thing so that they can make sure that they were doing things the right way and being secure.

What needs to be done for state judges in that regard?

SALAS: So the federal laws is a solid step in the right direction. And it created, obviously, mechanisms for federal judges to seek the removal of their personally identifiable information.

But what you need is belt and suspenders. You need states to do like New Jersey did and enact Daniel's Law. And Daniel's Law works to also take that information off state Web sites.

You know, state -- what we do and what we see here is that the state's agency Web sites will populate this information, even if a judge is able to get it out or get it off a Web site.

If we don't have the states working together with the federal government, we're not doing everything we can to protect judges by sealing the very information that, you know, the killer used to hunt down Judge Wilkinson. That's his personal home address.

[13:55:00]

So what we need are states to enact laws like New Jersey did, Daniel's Law, and to work sort of having those state laws work with the federal law to make sure that that information remains off of state databases.

There is a lot we can do. There's a lot we are all working to do.

But this is a painful reminder of what will happen if we don't start pushing and advocating and actually begging state legislators to do what they need to do to protect their judges that are serving, doing what they want, doing what they desire to do, which is serve the public and the community at large.

There's a way to do this, but it means that we work together, that we unite and we do what we can as a nation to ensure that our democracy stays sound.

I am just, you know, again, so hopeful and yet so concerned because of the news, obviously, that has hit us all.

We are continuing to pray and think of Judge Wilkinson's family. We will continue to do -- Mark and I and I know so many judges will

continue to do what we can to ensure that all judges are safe and secure, and allowed to do their jobs without fear of reprisal, retribution or, god forbid, death.

KEILAR: Yes. And you provided a bipartisan blueprint and that is why we wanted to talk to you today for that.

Judger Esther Salas, thank you so much for your time.

SALAS: Thank you, Ms. Keilar. Have a good day.

KEILAR: All right. You, too.

So we are following some breaking news out of the Middle East. Sources say two American hostages are being released, that they actually have been released by Hamas. They are in transit now on their way out of Gaza.

Stay with CNN. We are live from Israel just ahead.

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