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Sources: Hamas Releasing Two American Hostages; Jim Jordan Loses Ballot on Whether He Should Drop out of House Speaker Race; Biden: Support for Israel, Ukraine "Vital" for U.S. Security. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired October 20, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:34]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Boris Sanchez with Brianna Keilar in Washington. We begin with a major breaking development in the Israel-Hamas war. Two Americans taken hostage by Hamas nearly two weeks ago have been released. That's according to a source familiar with the negotiations.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yeah, this is a mother and a daughter as we understand it. They were among at least 200 people who were kidnapped during Hamas' attacks on Israel in which 1,400 people were killed. We have CNN's Alex Marquardt and MJ Lee with details on this.

Alex, tell us what more you can about this release.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, a mother and daughter, as you say. We understand from a source that I spoke with about the negotiations that the mother is not in good health. So, we've been told by both our sources and by Hamas that this is a, quote/unquote, humanitarian release because presumably Hamas doesn't want to deal with someone who is not in very good health.

So, we've been told that they have been handed over to the Red Cross. So, they're now with an independent body. They're not with the militant group anymore. And that they are heading to a crossing to get out of the Gaza Strip.

In southern Gaza, there is both the Rafah crossing that goes into Egypt and the Kerem Shalom crossing that goes into Israel. And right now, we are not clear on which one they're going to and which officials they will be handed over to. But this is certainly excellent news for the families. We will -- we can assume that once they are handed over that they will be given the medical treatment that they need.

But there are still major questions about the remaining hostages. And there have been all kinds of numbers that have been put on how many remain. The IDF saying earlier today that that range could be between 100 and 200. Hamas has said that it is closer to 200.

So you know, big questions about where those hostages are. We have been told, we've reported, that they are spread out among different groups, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, other militant groups. And that has certainly complicated the prospect of Israel going into Gaza on the ground, which, of course, they are expected to do.

SANCHEZ: Alex, thank you so much for that.

We want to get to the White House right now because MJ Lee is there. And MJ, you have some new reporting about communications between the Israeli government and the U.S. over American hostages. Tell us about that.

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Boris. I am told that Israel had previously told the U.S. government that some Americans taken hostage by Hamas were believed and known to be alive. What is not clear, though, right now -- and this is very, very important -- is whether the Israelis were referring only to the two people, the two Americans, that are currently being released by Hamas or whether there was information about any other American hostages.

Now, the U.S. government, keep in mind, has never given a firm number as to how many American hostages are believed to have been taken by Hamas. They have used language like "a handful" of Americans were believed to have been taken. And the U.S., I am also told, is not aware of any proof-of-life videos pertaining to American citizens akin to the video that was released earlier this week by Hamas of that 21- year-old French-Israeli citizen.

Now, I don't have to tell you that ascertaining information about any of the hostages being -- that were taken by Hamas, that has been extraordinarily difficult, and that is why we have seen U.S. officials in recent days speaking extremely carefully whenever they have even broached this subject.

[14:05:19]

And of course, President Biden himself has said repeatedly that getting any American hostages out of Gaza has been a top, top priority. And in recent days, notably, he has gone to lengths to say that he simply cannot talk in public about all of the things that U.S. officials are doing to make an effort to try to get these Americans out.

And now, apparently, we are seeing some of the effects of the negotiations, any conversations, efforts that have been made behind the scenes by U.S. officials with these two Americans being released. But again, a big deal that now we can report that Israel had previously told the U.S. government that they believe that U.S. hostages were known to be alive.

KEILAR: All right. MJ, thank you so much for that.

All right, we have breaking news. And --

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Major breaking news on the Hill -- KEILAR: We do. We have big breaking news. We're going to the Hill now. A huge shakeup in the speaker's race. Let's bring in our chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju.

Manu, Jim Jordan now officially out of the race. Tell us what happened.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I'm here right now, right outside this very chaotic moment where Republicans just voted about whether or not Jim Jordan should continue on as the candidate for speaker. They voted against him. They voted essentially to say that he should drop out of this race.

And now, there's going to be a candidate forum next week on Monday for new speaker candidates who could yet emerge. And then, a potential speaker vote on Tuesday.

I'm here with Congressman Dusty Johnson, who was in that room just now. Congressman Johnson, explain to us what happened in the room. And is Jim Jordan officially out as a candidate for speaker?

REP. DUSTY JOHNSON (R-SD): I'm not going to talk to you about what happened in that room.

I will reflect on what needs to happen next. I mean, clearly, there is yet another void. We are going to have a couple more days of chaos as we try to get a sense of what's next. To me, it reminds me how incredibly irresponsible it was for 208 Democrats and eight Republicans to put this House into absolute chaos without any kind of a plan for how we were going to move forward.

Now, we really do need -- we really do need somebody to step forward, somebody who is mission-driven, somebody who is focused on doing something rather than just being something. Blind ambition has distorted this process enough. We need to go find a leader.

RAJU: But you just heard Nancy Mace right there (ph), she -- she just said Jim Jordan was the plan. She was one of the eight who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy. What do you say to her?

JOHNSON: Well, let's be clear. Nancy Mace -- it's been a long time since she's done anything productive to move forward this broader team. America's got real problems. And this is a time where we need people who are interested in problem-solving, not self-aggrandizement. And it's frustrating.

I think most of us know, whether you come from South -- South Dakota, or South Carolina, or Washington state, that there are always going to be people who are more interested in themselves rather than the team. And I think Americans are sick of it.

And I know most members of the House are sick of it. It is time for big boys and big girls to stop with the nonsense and get back to work for the United States.

RAJU: What's going to happen now? JOHNSON: What's going to happen now is, I think, we're going to need to take a little time to decompress from what was a difficult environment. And we're going to need to have some people do some soul- searching.

I think we're going to need to find some people who have never thought of themselves in this way. Somebody who's not spent 5 or 10 years trying to become the speaker of the House. We need to find somebody who, frankly, understands that this may well be the last opportunity they have to serve in politics.

We have dealt ourselves an incredibly difficult hand.

RAJU: Can you (ph) -- can anyone get the votes to become speaker?

JOHNSON: There are people in that room who can get the votes. They have not thought of themselves as being the guy or the girl yet.

But this country, this Republican Conference, we are going to turn our eyes to them, and we need them to step up. And I believe someone will.

(CROSSTALK)

RAJU: I don't know if you guys are still with me here. Yeah. So, as you can hear, a very, very frustrated Congressman Dusty Johnson. He is a pretty even-keeled member here, but just furious at the eight Republicans who -- hold on one second here. Mr. Donalds, are you going to run for speaker?

(CROSSTALK)

REP. BYRON DONALDS (R-FL): So right now they -- right now, they -- hold on, everybody. Hold on, everybody.

Our process is one where every member votes. They make those decisions for themselves. We are where we war (ph) -- we are where we are.

My view is, we should be here in Washington continuing to work until we resolve this.

(CROSSTALK)

RAJU: But what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Are you going to run for speaker?

DONALDS: Manu, right now, I don't know what I'm going to do. What I'm going to do is, frankly, sit down, think, because we've got to get our business together. And that's going to be my entire focus.

[14:10:09]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you're not ruling it out, clearly.

RAJU: So, one member there, Byron Donalds, saying that he clearly not ruling it out. I got a little echo in my ear -- control room, if you can fix that. But one member, Byron Donalds, not ruling out running for speaker. But

before we came to air, I did talk to another candidate who's going to be a speaker candidate, Kevin Hern, a Republican from Oklahoma, who's the chairman of the Republican Study Committee. He told me he is going to run for speaker.

This will be a contested race. Several other potential Republican candidates here could jump in the race, Jodey Arrington being one of them; Mike Johnson, Republican from Louisiana, being another one. There's another congressman here. I want to grab him once he breaks away from this gaggle here.

But just to take a step back, this is a hugely significant moment. Jim Jordan, who had been the candidate for speaker for three ballots, as someone who had been pushed by members of the hard-right, people who had pushed out Kevin McCarthy, is bowing out of the bid for the speakership amid a revolt -- mostly from more moderate members, more establishment-aligned members, members aligned with the leadership who simply thought it was time to move on.

He lost a secret ballot election vote. They put it to a test, asked the members. Do they want him to vote for speaker -- do they want him to continue to run for speaker or will he -- or should he step aside? The Conference, a majority vote, said it was time for him to step aside.

Now, once again, Republicans are going to have to pick up the pieces, try to figure out what the next step is here and whether another candidate can actually get the votes to become elected speaker.

That is going to be a very difficult proposition, as we've seen time and time again. In the -- following the unprecedented ouster of Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the House, no candidate has been anywhere close to getting 217 votes. And can anyone do that? Now they're going to solicit their membership. By noon on Sunday, that is the next deadline for candidates to come forward and say that they might be a candidate for the speakership.

And then Monday, there will be a candidate forum in which the members will have to go behind closed doors, make their case about why they should be speaker of the House. And then potentially by Tuesday, that's when we could see another floor vote for whoever gets nominated for speaker. Maybe even -- it'll push into Wednesday.

The time frame is a little uncertain about the floor vote for all of this. But just such a significant moment, as Republicans remain so badly divided.

And as what you heard from Congressman Dusty Johnson, just going after those eight Republicans who initially voted out Kevin McCarthy, blaming him for all of this. Saying they have no plans, they are motivated by a political agenda, and taking direct and personal aim at some members, including Congresswoman Nancy Mace.

Just a pretty revealing moment here for the GOP as they struggle to figure out their way forward. Guys? SANCHEZ: Manu, it was really telling, your conversation with Congressman Dusty Johnson. And something that he said stuck out to me. When you think about the potential for a future speaker, he said that whoever wins may have to accept that their time on Capitol Hill will be short. Essentially saying that they're not going to win over the majority of the Conference. They may not win over their district.

Usually, speaker of the House is like a position that you aspire to. But it seems like it's a difficult position to be in right now, for anyone.

RAJU: Yeah. I mean, that's -- that's part of the issue here, right? Any one Republican can vote out -- can call for a vote, ousting a sitting speaker. So, whoever can get the job may not even be in the job for very long.

And I can tell you, there is real concern among Republicans about whether or not they can actually keep the majority here and whether or not this this effort, right, this whole messy episode will just simply cost them what they battled on -- this battle (ph).

Let me talk to Congressman Austin Scott.

Congressman Scott, we are live here on air. You have been very, very upset at the way the whole -- all of this has gone down here. What do you say to the people who had started this, the eight Republicans who initially voted out Kevin McCarthy at this moment?

REP. AUSTIN SCOTT (R-GA): Same thing I say to the 208 Democrats that voted with those eight Republicans. It was a dangerous game that was being played. The consequences are real for the country.

If men were angels, we wouldn't need the government, as you know. But, men aren't angels, and we need the United States House of Representatives to open.

And so -- and so, certainly we have eight Republicans that are guilty, but there are 208 Democrats that voted with them to put us in this position. And now, you know, we have to come up with another speaker nominee.

RAJU: But you guys can't even get behind a speaker nominee. Republicans are so badly divided about this. Why?

RAJU: We're upset about what happened, right, because 208 Democrats voted with eight Republicans to remove the speaker of the House and put us in the current position that we're in. That's what happened.

They took out the largest Republican fundraiser that House Republicans have -- have ever had. So, it did a tremendous amount of damage to our party. It did a tremendous amount of damage to our Conference. There's a tremendous amount of resentment among the different groups in the Conference.

And so, the resentment is something we've got to work through. Hopefully, we have a nominee on Tuesday and can go to the floor. And hopefully we can get that person across the floor (ph) --

[14:15:18]

RAJU: Who's that person?

SCOTT: It -- it'll -- it'll be up to the Conference to make the determination on who's going to represent us on the floor.

RAJU: How does this make the Republican Party look right now?

SCOTT: I think it makes Congress, as a whole, look very bad. It makes Congress, as a whole, look very bad.

The Democrats have had a lot of fun with it. But the fact of the matter is, 208 Democrats voted with eight Republicans. The Democrats are not innocent in this. They're not.

RAJU: But Matt Gaetz and the Republicans that started this.

SCOTT: But Matt Gaetz have -- has very personal differences with Kevin McCarthy. So, it was very personal differences, not legislative differences that led to this. And when he brought the motion, and he was the person that brought the motion, you know, the end result of it is a very dangerous position that we're in as a country.

So, we're going to have Conference on Monday. We will have different candidates running. And then we will have a vote Tuesday morning inside the Conference to come up with a Republican nominee. And then hopefully, we'll be on the floor shortly after lunch.

RAJU: (INAUDIBLE) So, if you're still with me here -- oh, here. Let's try.

Congress -- Congressman Roy, how big of a mistake was it for the Republicans who voted to out -- oust Kevin McCarthy about a plan here?

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): Yeah, look, I'm not going to go down that road. I believe that's been asked and answered, right? I didn't support the motion to vacate. I supported Jim Jordan wholeheartedly.

I think it was a mistake for the Republican Conference to just walk away from arguably the most popular Republican in the Republican Party. So, we shouldn't have done that. We just did.

So now we've got to go back and --

(CROSSTALK)

RAJU: So who's going to be the candidate now?

ROY: You think I'm going to start positing that? I'll tell you what. I'll pick somebody I definitely don't want to be speaker and I'll mention that name.

RAJU: Why is it so hard for the GOP to get their act together here? ROY: Look, I've answered this before. You can agree or you can disagree. We have -- our Democratic colleagues will not work with us on a single thing to secure the border, not one thing in any --

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RAJU: You're the ones who can't get behind a candidate here.

(CROSSTALK)

ROY: Hold on. So, what we're doing is we're having a debate among the 221 who are willing to actually have a debate about the things our people care about.

And some of that spills out in public. And you know what? It's a hell of a lot better than having a decision made by the Kremlin and foist it upon you. We are laying this all out in public view, and the American people can see it. It is the sausage getting made. It's the worst system, except for all the others.

RAJU: You think this looks good?

ROY: I think -- look, having the American people be able to see how we are wrestling with the tough decisions and what we're trying to do -- and doing it with intensity and doing it because we care about this country. And God bless all of these people who put their names forward, all of the stuff that we're wrestling with, because it's a hell of a lot better than the way the rest of the world has always done it. God bless.

RAJU: Very, very strong feelings, as you're hearing, coming out of this room.

Just one Republican after another, just at a -- some at a loss of words, some just furious at everything that has gone down, some angry pointedly at some of the members, some trying to shift the blame to Democrats who did vote with Republicans to oust Kevin McCarthy. This was initiated, of course, by Republicans themselves to push out the speaker of the House. And then they can't -- they haven't been able to find any sort of consensus nominee.

And just for viewers to understand how significant this is, if you don't have a speaker of the House, nothing can get done. Legislation can't get done. The president sending up an aid package for Israel and Ukraine. That needs to get approved for the people who say that this is absolutely essential to deal with pushing and deterring America's enemies. None of that can happen unless there is a speaker of the House.

And we are seeing something that we have not seen yet, ever in American history, a speaker pushed out in the middle of his term and then the failure of a party to figure out who can replace him.

And the feelings in that room from Republicans right now, the emotions so raw, because they are at a -- complete opposite sides about how they should move forward. How can they get out of this crisis that they caused?

They have no idea how to do that yet. They're going to try to figure out whether a new candidate can get them out of this morass. But it is highly, highly uncertain whether that person can. Guys?

KEILAR: That is a good word there, Manu Raju, morass. I think that is where they find themselves and where we find ourselves right now. Manu Raju, amazing work on the Hill.

I just feel like we're there. This is like a day in the life of Manu Raju tracking down members of Congress. And there we have what everyone needs to know. Thank you so much for that.

All right, Florida Congresswoman and Freedom Caucus member Ana Paulina Luna is joining me now.

Congresswoman, thank you so much for being with us. What is your reaction to this? Jim Jordan, who you have supported, is now out.

REP. ANNA PAULINA LUNA (R-FL): You know, Jim Jordan is arguably one of the most republic -- popular Republicans in U.S. history. And you had some members of the GOP that really just spat in the face of their voters. What I've really come to find is that there are those candidates like me that exist on both the right and the left, that really don't hold their votes accountable to special interests. And I think that you all saw that -- the world saw that play out this last couple of weeks.

[14:20:14]

KEILAR: So where now?

LUNA: Well, we have to find a speaker. But unfortunately, you're seeing that this Conference decided that we're going to go home, which I would argue is one of the worst things that you can do right now --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Congresswoman --

LUNA: We have a war in the Middle East.

KEILAR: -- I am so sorry to interrupt you.

LUNA: Yeah.

KEILAR: Let's listen to Jim Jordan. We'll speak on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I appreciated getting to work with everyone and talk with everyone.

I got to know members in our Conference that I didn't really know that well over the last three weeks. And that we need to come together and figure out who our speaker is going to be. I'm going to work as hard as I can to help that individual so that we can go help the American people.

And I'm also going to go back to work. We got -- we got several depositions lined up next week in the Judiciary Committee work that we need to do for the American people in our investigative work. So, we'll go back to work there, but it's important we do unite. Let's figure out who that individual is, get behind him and get to work for the American people. Thank you all very much.

(CROSSTALK)

UNKNOWN MALE: Do you have -- do you have any preference on who you want to see as speaker?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right. Congresswoman Luna, back with us now. That was pretty short and sweet, what he said there. But just that we're going to get back to work, he said, and it's time to unite, figure out who that person is.

That's the question. Unite behind, you know, who? Who are Republicans going to unite behind?

LUNA: Well, as of right now, we have to find someone that not only our voters support, but that the Conference can support. And one of the big things that you're seeing right now -- I heard you ask a question earlier of Representative Chip Roy. It seemed that there's a lot of personal issues that have boiled to the surface that predate my freshman class and, really, honestly, the last six years.

And so, it's my hope that people can, again, go back to policy, which is what they should have only been based on and find someone that can lead our country right now, because we're certainly not finding it out of the White House.

KEILAR: Well, I think some of the personal issues that predate your freshman class were linked to some of the personal issues that we saw playing out, which might've been some of what you saw some of the other Republicans saying they felt like was bullying. Right? There were a lot of --

LUNA: You know, it's --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: -- death threats that were coming from supporters, certainly --

LUNA: Yeah, sorry -- sorry to interrupt you.

KEILAR: -- who were upset that --

LUNA: -- right there.

KEILAR: Well, let me just --

LUNA: Yeah.

KEILAR: Let me finish and then you can speak.

LUNA: OK.

KEILAR: But there were -- they were certainly upset that there were death threats coming to them and, in their case, some of their spouses. And they felt that they were being bullied and intimidated as they opposed Jim Jordan.

LUNA: You know, I'm so happy that you brought that up because I saw numbers saying that their constituents calling their offices, asking them to vote a certain way was bullying. And as far as I'm concerned, the people that elected you, when they call you and they tell you -- and they voice their concerns, that's not bullying.

But I will be the first person to say that, of course, I don't condone death threats. But I actually received one that CNN covered in my 2022 election. And you know what happened? People thought that that was crazy.

But unfortunately, in this game of politics, it gets nasty. These exist on both sides. And to say that it was the -- the chairman of the House Judiciary that was behind this is a farce.

KIELAR: I didn't say he was behind it. I said this was occurring in conjunction as people were upset about what was happening. And we didn't --

LUNA: Yes, I think --

(CROSSTALK)

KIELAR: -- see him vociferously publicly saying that this should not happen.

And as we understand it, there were also -- and you were there inside of these meetings. Sort of to your point, where you said this is just sort of the way things are, it sounds like that's sort of -- let me ask you about this. Why is that OK?

I mean, this -- this is the way things are? How is --

LUNA: No, I don't think it's OK.

KIELAR: -- that acceptable?

LUNA: It's not acceptable. But what you're seeing is a failure on both sides -- and within very, I think, important leadership positions -- to condemn it. I can tell you that I heard an interview earlier today where Nancy Mace said that she received death threats last week and that her family was harassed, that she had her -- her car keyed.

So, the fact is, is that this is politics. People get excited. They get -- sometimes, really, their blood boils, but it's not acceptable and we should condemn it across the board. But again, what I'm saying is that I saw members trying to blame this

on Representative Jordan, who's the chairman of House Judiciary. And if we're talking about moving forward, I think it's important for people to remember that what you say on television, that what you put out from your office, whether or not it's personal, it's going to have long-lasting effects. And what I am saying is that the chairman of House Judiciary -- that Jim Jordan during his campaign for speaker was not behind that.

KEILAR: Who are you thinking that you would like to support now? Do you have some members in mind that you are encouraging to throw their hat in the ring?

LUNA: You know, I thought Lee Zeldin would be incredible, but I'm hearing that some members in Conference won't support someone outside of Conference. I think Kevin Hern would be good. I think that there's a few people.

But again, you know, we were focusing on what the American people wanted. We were focusing and giving Representative Jordan the respect that he deserved.

And so again, we are going to have to go back to the drawing board. And I do think that it's -- it's important to note that, remember, we have a C.R. that's ending in less than, I think, 27 days now. We have a war in the Middle East. We just had President Biden try to lump Israel and Ukraine funding into a request that we're clearly not going to even be able to address. And so, we have a lot of issues right now.

And again, going back to what just happened, you saw people put ego before the American people.

[14:25:18]

KEILAR: What's your message to the eight GOP members who voted to oust McCarthy?

LUNA: I'm not going to go back and address that.

But let me just remind the American people and my own Conference that they voted on that historical Thomas Jefferson rule to motion to vacate the chair. That is something that predated the 118th Congress. That was something that was put in place in order to empower the minority from the majority oppression. And frankly, that would have not happened if things were not said and promises were not broken.

KEILAR: Are you worried that what we are witnessing, which is incredibly messy, is going to cost Republicans the majority?

LUNA: I don't know that it'll cost Republicans the majority, but I definitely think that people have explaining to their voters. I'm the first person to say that when someone calls my office, when I get those type of questions, I answer them. I don't ignore them.

That is part of what it means to be a representative. I'm not up here as the queen of England. You are accountable to your voters. And so go back and explain your vote.

KEILAR: I'm sure there will be a lot of explaining that many members are going to be doing here over the weekend. Congresswoman Luna, we really appreciate you being with us. Thank you.

LUNA: Thank you. God bless.

KEILAR: All right.

Obviously, a very pivotal day there on Capitol Hill. Jim Jordan's attempt at the speakership, it is now dead. And so onward, but to what? A huge question.

In the meantime, President Biden trying to sell Americans on tens of billions of dollars in aid for Israel and for Ukraine. As you just heard, we were talking about it, they're tying both wars together as vital to U.S. national security. Will his primetime appeal work, though? We're going to discuss. Next.

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