Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Biden Makes Case For Wartime Aid To Israel And Ukraine; Pro- Trump Lawyer Kenneth Chesebro Takes Plea Deal In GA Election Subversion Case; Trump Fraud Trial Judge Suggests Gag Order Violation Could Result In Imprisonment; Israeli PM's Office: 2 U.S. Hostages Released By Hamas & In Israel; Mark Esper, Former U.S. Defense Secretary, Discusses Release Of 2 American Hostages. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired October 20, 2023 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:50]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: It may be a signature moment in the Biden presidency as we look back at this. A rare primetime speech from the Oval Office, Biden telling the American people the turmoil in Israel and Ukraine goes beyond regional disputes.

He said the war poses -- these wars pose existential threats to the ideals of democracy.

And he also insisted that the U.S. has to lead the way in defending against the ideals, against terrorists bent on destroying them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When terrorists don't pay a price for their terror, when dictators don't pay a price for the aggression, they cause more chaos and death and more destruction.

They keep going and the cost and threats to America and the world keep rising.

I know we have our divisions at home, we have to get past them. We can't let petty partisan angry politics get in the way of our responsibilities as a great nation.

We cannot and will not let terrorists like Hamas and tyrants like Putin win. I refuse to let that happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Let's discuss with CNN presidential historian, Tim Naftali.

Tim, thanks so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us.

This is only the second time that Biden has delivered an address from the Oval Office. Obviously, there's significance to choosing that venue to deliver that message to the American people. TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: President Biden was following

in the tradition of American presidents who have gone abroad at times of war and times of conflict, had important meetings, and then have come back to the American people to give them a report on what happened.

Woodrow Wilson did that. Franklin Roosevelt did that. John F. Kennedy did that. Ronald Reagan did that.

Presidents reserve those moments for very important events. And Joe Biden has followed in that tradition.

I think if you listen to the speech -- if you didn't you should. If you did, you heard a president at his very best.

He was trying to balance some difficult foreign and domestic political challenges. And frankly, he stood on the shoulders of those presidents who have done similar work before him.

KEILAR: I think that's -- that's really the thing, Tim, is he's making the case for the world order, as it is that has existed for so long with the U.S. leading.

And he's urging Americans, at a time when Americans are actually -- the polls show they're disinclined to support especially this aid for Ukraine, he's urging them to do it. And that if they don't, there are these huge ramifications.

It's not a given that he's going to be successful in this. So if he doesn't succeed, I wonder how you think history might judge this moment.

NAFTALI: Well, if he doesn't succeed, it's because the pro-Putin faction in one House of Congress will choose chaos over a commitment to international security. That's what the stakes are.

The president made clear a view that American leaders of both parties have had, since Pearl Harbor, which is that America is, you can say, an essential nation or indispensable nation.

But that we are so powerful that we can and should play a role in maintaining international security. That is an understanding that most Americans, by far, have had since Pearl Harbor.

And that feeling was reinforced after 9/11. The question for most Americans is, do you still believe that? I think most Americans do.

The issue that Americans debate is what kind of sacrifice we are willing to do on behalf of shoring up international security. And that's a great debate. And it's a debate democracies need to have.

But the idea that we can pull away from the world and the world won't react, I don't think most Americans believe that.

[14:34:59] Yes, there is a MAGA group of isolationists, but are they really most Americans? No. So the challenge for the president is to speak to all Americans and to try to persuade those who are isolationists.

Now, people understand -- I mean, no one is naive here. He's probably not going to persuade others but he has to make the case. That's part of the job of being president.

Good presidents are those who try to explain and persuade as opposed to divisive presidents who decide, from the beginning, they're only going to talk to the people who voted for them.

SANCHEZ: And notably, Tim, this speech and these trips also come at a time when there are a lot of questions in the electorate, even from Democrats, about his image and his age and his ability to function as president.

Already being the oldest president in history, potentially in his 80s if he wins reelection.

NAFTALI: Joe Biden is the first American president ever to go to Israel when it's in a state of war. Richard Nixon, who was much younger, didn't go. LBJ, who was much younger, didn't go.

LBJ and Nixon were in their 60s. They didn't go. George W. Bush didn't go. He was also in his 60s at the time. It took an 80-year-old man to do it.

I'm not sure that age played any role at all in the president's management of this crisis. What he did show was that he could do it.

There's no question that Americans would prefer someone who emanates vitality. Of course. But next year, the president will have shown us that he was able to manage a crisis in the Middle East despite his age.

So I think that his handling of the crisis at the moment is exactly what I would expect a 60-year-old or even a 50-year-old to do.

So I don't think age has played a role at all in how he's dealt with this crisis. And frankly, isn't that the way we should be judging presidents?

SANCHEZ: Tim Naftali, we have to leave the conversation there. Thanks for the time.

NAFTALI: Thank you. My pleasure.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Still to come, a last-minute plea deal. Pro-Trump attorney, Kenneth Chesebro, pleading guilty in the Georgia election subversion case. What it could mean for the former president's case when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:41:57]

SANCHEZ: Attorney Kenneth Chesebro pleads guilty in a Georgia courtroom. And as part of that plea deal, Chesebro admits he conspired with Donald Trump and former Trump attorneys, Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman, to put forward fake Republican electors in the Peach State. That, of course, is a felony.

KEILAR: CNN's Katelyn Polantz is with us on this story.

So, Katelyn, this is coming one day after another member of Trump's inter circle, another former Trump attorney, Sidney Powell, took a similar deal. Tell us what you are learning.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: Kenneth Chesebro and Sidney Powell are two top attorneys that were very close to Donald Trump and his inner circle around the 2020 election when they were all trying to contest the result in various ways.

And what they are doing here is both are pleading guilty. They are essentially canceling the trial that these two people had lined up to start today.

So Sidney Powell and Kenneth Chesebro were supposed to have their jury selection start today, separately from the other defendants in this case.

That trial is not happening because these two are ready to testify at future trials. That includes potentially against Donald Trump himself.

So Sidney Powell, what she's admitting to in her guilty plea in Fulton County, Georgia, is the attempt to access voting data and ballot machines in Coffee County, Georgia, this rural county.

But what Ken Chesebro pleaded guilty to today in state court in Georgia is a felony where he admits to coordinating with Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, others, people on the Trump campaign, Republicans in Georgia, trying to get fake electors organized to help this effort to delay or overcome Trump's loss in that state.

So Chesebro being able to admit now in court that he's guilty of this conspiracy.

That's quite a domino to fall in favor of Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis. And it will have implications going forward, not just for those 17 or 16 other remaining defendants awaiting trial in Fulton County.

It also could have implications for the federal case against Donald Trump set to go to trial in March.

KEILAR: It is huge, potentially.

Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for that reporting.

Also happening today, the judge that is overseeing former President Donald Trump's civil fraud trial in New York suggested that Trump could be imprisoned for what he calls a "blatant violation" of his gag order.

SANCHEZ: Yes, Judge Arthur Engoron scolded Trump's attorneys in court and he issued that stern warning after he learned that a social media post attacking his clerk had never been removed from Trump's campaign Web site.

CNN's Kara Scannell joins us now.

So, Kara, how are Trump's attorneys responding to this warning?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So Trump's lawyer stood up in court before the judge and he told him that this was an inadvertent mistake.

He explained that Trump initially made this post on his Truth Social platform and the campaign archives and pulls all of those statements onto the campaign Web site in a "In case you missed it" section.

[14:44:59]

He explained that it wasn't caught. He said that there was no intention to evade or circumvent or ignore the order. He said he was apologizing on behalf of his client.

And he said they had went and they checked the numbers and there were only 3,701 unique visits to that "In case you missed it" post that was reposting the posts since the gag order.

So he was explaining to the judge that this was essentially a mistake and that it had been taken down. He blamed part of this on the large machinery of a campaign.

So the judge said he would take this under advisement. He did not rule on what he would do.

But said, I want to make clear that Donald Trump is still responsible for the large machine, even if it is a large machine. So saying that the buck stops with Donald Trump.

So he has not issued a ruling on that. We are waiting still to see if he will do anything more on that today or if he is satisfied by this explanation.

But the former president's daughter, Ivanka Trump, has also moved to quash a subpoena for her testimony in this case. She is no longer a defendant in the case after an appeals court threw out the claims against her, saying that they happened too long ago. But she is trying to fight the subpoena.

Also, we're learning, next week, Michael Cohen is expected to take the stand and he will be facing Donald Trump, who is also expected to appear in court -- Boris, Brianna?

KEILAR: That will be a big appearance.

Kara Scannell, thank you for that. So sources say that two American hostages -- this is very big news

that we've been following today -- a mother and daughter had been released by Hamas. We will have the very latest details on this next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:50:46]

KEILAR: All right, we do have some more information now on the two American hostages who we are learning have been released by Hamas.

I want to bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins, who has this from Tel Aviv.

Kaitlan, what can you tell us?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, this is good news for the families, Brianna, of these two American hostages.

CNN has confirmed via the Israeli prime minster's office that the two American hostages who have been released are Judith and Nataliee Raanan.

They are two American hostages who were here in Israel. They were celebrating a relative's 85th birthday. They were at a kibbutz about a mile away from Gaza and the border, of course, where Hamas came across on October 7th and attacked several of those neighborhoods and communities.

And we have now confirmed that it is the two of them who have now been released.

What we have learned and what we were told earlier by our sources is that this was on a humanitarian condition, because the mother, Judith, we do not believe, is in good health. We're still waiting for more details about how she's doing.

What we do know is the IDF received these two hostages from the border at the Gaza Strip. They are now on their way to a military base here inside Israel. Their family is waiting there for them.

And just -- our audience is familiar with them. They've seen the pictures of Judith and Nataliee. We spoke to the rabbi from Illinois of their congregation earlier this week.

And he was saying that before they made the trip, Judith had given the daughter a pink little prayer and was just talking about what beacons of light they are in the community.

So this is going to be incredibly welcome news for their family to know that they are coming home, that they are safe, and that they are on their way to an Israeli military base right now.

And I should note, in this statement that was obtained from my colleague, Oren Liebermann, from the Israeli prime minster's office, confirming that it is these two American-Israeli hostages that have been released by Hamas. They say that they are still committed to getting all those hostages who have been abducted released. Still working on navigating all of their releases.

But significant that it is Judith and Nataliee Raanan, who have been released, now on their way to their family who is waiting for them here at an Israeli military base.

KEILAR: Such good news.

Kaitlan Collins, thank you.

SANCHEZ: Let's discuss with Mark Esper. He's the former defense secretary under President Trump.

Secretary, thanks so much for being with us.

First, I want your reaction to news that Judith and Nataliee Raanan are heading home, or at least that they have released by Hamas.

MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER TRUMP: Look, it's very good news, of course, for them, their families and for the other hostages that are being held by Hamas.

Kaitlan answered one of the questions I had, which is why them? And we know it was for humanitarian reasons basically.

But the bigger question is, why? Why just two? Why now? I'm sure others have theories. I suspect that people were telling Hamas, look, you should release a couple to show some type of good faith that we can deal with you.

And maybe Hamas' logic was, if they do that, they can forestall the Israeli invasion that they don't want to happen and to allow their allies to continue to put political pressure on Israel.

That's kind of my best guess at why they're doing this now and why with just two.

SANCHEZ: Our understanding is their release was negotiated by Qatar. They negotiated directly with Hamas.

Walk us through how these hostage handovers typically work when there isn't a direction line of communication between one party, the party that the hostages have been taken from, like Israel, and the captors.

ESPER: Well, we know Qatar is playing the intermediary role, trying to negotiate on behalf of the hostages. And we know there are over 200 hostages or about 200 now and some of them are Americans.

And I'm sure they're kind of working through the terms of what that might look like, under what conditions that would happen. Would there be some agreement by the Israelis not to do this or that.

[14:55:00] And like I said, my only guess right now as to why Hamas decided to do this was maybe the Israelis were saying, look, time's up for negotiations. Qatar's got nowhere in the last week or so. What are we waiting for? Let's go in and let's just try to find them ourselves. That's a possibility.

Maybe there's some type of play in here with Israeli Special Operations finding some, not being able to find some. Who knows?

But, to me, that's the big question is, why just two? Why now? What's the message being sent? Or what is Hamas trying to forestall?

SANCHEZ: On the question of what they might be trying to forestall, how does the looming incursion by Israel into Gaza impact the effort to save hostages?

ESPER: Well, that's the big issue, right, because Hamas promised, if Israel goes in, they will begin executing hostages. And we know that Iran has also promised consequences against, not just Israel, but the United States, given their threats.

So Israel has to weigh that out. And maybe they think, if they go in, they can rescue the hostages by going in by force.

I think Hamas, politically, is seeing some progress being made on the international front through its allies putting pressure on Israel and, to some degree, the United States.

To, for example, allow aid to come in, again, to get Israel to back off on tight timelines to allow for humanitarian corridors. So, again, I think they're weighing that out.

But clearly, if Israel goes in, which we think might be pretty soon, that would accelerate those timelines and really put into question the fate of hostages.

SANCHEZ: Former Secretary Mark Esper, thanks so much for your time.

Stay with CNN. We'll be right back.

ESPER: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)