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Airstrikes Rump up in Gaza; Major Mike Lyons is Interviewed about the Israel War; Aid Trickles into Gaza; Jonathan Dekel-Chen is Interviewed about his Son being held Hostage. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 23, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:20]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Kate Bolduan, with John Berman here in New York. Sara Sidner is in Jerusalem.

Overnight, Israel says that it hit hundreds of targets in Gaza and launched new raids on the ground. In all the IDF says 320 sites were targeted. Now, the Hamas-controlled ministry of health in Gaza says more than 400 people were killed. Here we are showing you pictures of some of the aftermath of those strikes.

We also have an important update from the IDF saying that they now believe 222 people were kidnapped by Hamas terrorists in the October 7th attack. That new total is up, you'll remember, from 203 as more information came in and more detail was coming out. This morning, the family of the first two hostages released, two Americans, spoke out for the first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AYELET SELLA, COUSIN OF RELEASED AMERICAN HOSTAGES: We don't have the privilege to be happy or to celebrate. We don't have the privilege to mourn. They're -- we cannot put it aside. We cannot rest. This is -- getting Judith and Nataliee back was not the end, it's the beginning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, again, some 222 hostages, as many as 222, this would be their 17th day in captivity. To give you a sense of what Kate was talking about right there, some of these cross-border altercations are taking place right down here. This is in Israeli kibbutz Kissufim, just across the border from there is where some of that activity, that ground activity, has taken place.

And while that is happening, there has been aid getting into Gaza from Egypt. This is Egypt, going across the border right here, the Rafah crossing, you can see where some explosions took place before this aid started getting through. And we have some video of the aid trucks. You can see right here. Some 34 through the end of yesterday. The intention is to keep them trickling through over however long they can. Of course, there are relief officials who say the numbers that is getting in, as good as it is to have the border open, it is merely a trickle, a drop in the bucket of what is needed there.

All right, we are everywhere on the ground that we need to be. Our Sara Sidner right here in Jerusalem, Nic Robertson in Sderot, just outside of Gaza.

Let's go first to our partner, Sara Sidner, in Jerusalem.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, look, here in Jerusalem it has been very quiet, eerily so. People are prepared for war. And they know that a ground offensive is likely coming. And they know that that is going to mean more deaths, more deaths to Israelis, the soldiers, and more deaths to those who are in Gaza.

So, it is a somber time, but there are people going about their business as best they can here in Jerusalem.

We also heard overnight from several different people who are familiar with what is going on in Gaza, and they talk about that aid that you mentioned, that there are mostly medical supplies, food and water that has been brought in, but if you look at the numbers, normally there are 7,200 trucks loads that go into Gaza during normal times. There have only been 34 over the past couple of days and so it shows you just how much is coming in. It is just not enough for the population of 1.3 or 1.4 million people who are in the part of Gaza they were supposed to evacuate. Not all of them have evacuated because the hospitals -- many of the people in the hospitals simply can't evacuate and the doctors are saying they will not evacuate unless their patients can.

I want to go now to my colleague Nic Robertson where overnight and over the weekend we spoke quite a bit.

Nic, you had said something that I hadn't heard you say before, that this is -- that overnight there was a bombing like you had never heard before, a bombardment in Gaza. Can you give us some sense of what you are seeing today and what you saw overnight?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: We've heard some artillery shells being fired by the IDF going into Gaza, the odd missile explosion, but nothing on the scale of what we witnessed last night, which was repetitive, sometimes ten missiles in ten minutes, multiple explosions, detonation so heavy perhaps because they were close to us that we could feel this building and hear the windows and doors shake here. When I would listen to the buildings next -- near us here shake as well with the percussions from those impacts.

[09:05:06]

Today, it is somewhat quieter.

That said, just as we were coming on air, we took cover because there was an incoming missile alert. Rockets were launched from Gaza towards this town. The Iron Dome intercepted them as best we could hear. It was quite a short salvo, but it does seem to, again, indicate some -- a cycle that we've seen in recent days that when the IDF strikes drop off, then you can expect a salvo of rockets or more to come out of Gaza on the days and the times when that bombing is very heavy, the strikes into Gaza are very heavy, then you don't get any missiles being fired out by Gaza or -- by Hamas, rather, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad. And that's where we seem to be right now. It's a day where there's not as much IDF fire going into Gaza as last night.

SIDNER: All right, I think it is remarkable just to let people know how huge and sustained that bombardment was where you can see and hear the rattling of some of the buildings on the other side of the border.

I do want to ask you about timing here and what you're hearing about the ground offensive. We heard from Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister and former defense minister, who talked to our Fareed Zakaria over the weekend. And he said that he believed that that ground offensive was going to happen in the next few days, and said that he believed it could take weeks when the IDF actually goes into Gaza to do the job that they had planned to do, trying to rid Gaza of Hamas. Have you gotten any sense, just from the troops on the ground that you're seeing or from any of your contacts, as to when they think this ground offensive may happen?

ROBERTSON: I think the decision on it is very fluid, and that's because of the international pressure. There's a, you know, a big and broad conversation that's going on about humanitarian aid in for the release of hostages. That seems to be the equation. But from an Israeli government perspective, when aid goes into Gaza, that goes and some of it ends up with Hamas and strengthens their position at a time when Israel is trying to affect a siege on Gaza to weaken Hamas. So, there's that part of the equation.

What we see in terms of troops along the border area, it seems very much that they are poised and could move to an incursion force posture very, very quickly. Talking to some of the soldiers, though, they describe a situation where they've been told to be ready and then they - then they're told not now and then be ready again and not now. Again, people who have been through this before, veterans of the IDF, say, look, we've experienced this sort of hurry up and wait before and - and to a degree that is a soldier's life, follow orders, hurry up and wait, but they say realistically they can wait a long time. And while they're waiting, they're doing drills, they're doing training, they're preparing.

But it is that international pressure on Israel that is growing to allow a humanitarian pause that is really going to be very, very difficult for Prime Minister Netanyahu to come to that final conclusion about when to go for an incursion. To a degree we're told it's a military decision and that's why I say it's fluid.

The forces are there. It seems to me at the moment they're -- this is very, very likely. Precisely when we don't know. And events on the ground play out. But there's always this perception that because Hamas took so many hostages, they were always going to use the hostages as a leverage, however they could, to prevent attacks on them and potentially that's also what we're seeing play out here. SIDNER: Yes.

Nic Robertson, thank you so much for that view on the ground. You are very, very close to Gaza in Sderot. I think the closest point is only 2,700 feet from Gaza. I appreciate all your reporting that you've been doing from there.

And I'm going to toss it back to Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, Sara, thank you so much.

Sources tell CNN the White House, behind the scenes, is pushing for Israel to delay that imminent ground incursion in Gaza, hoping to get more hostages released ahead of time. CNN's Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon with more reports on this.

Natasha, lay out what you're hearing. An Israeli official denied that the United States is seeking any sort of delay, but what are you hearing?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Kate. Well, what Nic was just laying out there, this international pressure, it is growing on Israel. And what we have been told, according to my colleague Alex Marquardt, is that the U.S. has been urging Israel to delay a ground invasion of Gaza in order to give Qatar and Hamas the opportunity to potentially negotiate the release of even more hostages that are being held in Gaza, as well as allow more humanitarian aid, including medical supplies and other equipment to flow into Gaza before boots are actually put on the ground in Gaza by the Israelis.

[09:10:11]

Now, as you mentioned, the Israelis are denying that the White House has been putting any kind of pressure on them. They told us in a statement that they have direct communications with the United States, including important consultations, but that the idea that the U.S. is pressuring them in any way is not true. However, the U.S. has said multiple times that they do want to see humanitarian aid flow into Gaza. They want to see more prisoners released because, of course, there are several Americans who are being held in Gaza by Hamas. And so the U.S. wants to see this process play out.

And what we're told is that the Qataris, they have been a key intermediary here with Hamas to try to get those talks flowing. The hope is that of those, you know, 200 plus hostages that are now believed to be being held by Hamas inside Gaza, there could be some additional forward momentum in getting many of them released, if not all of them. That is the hope right now. A ground incursion could make that exceedingly difficult, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Natasha, thanks for the reporting.

John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now is retired U.S. Army Major Mike Lyons. And, Major, another reason the U.S. may be pushing Israel to delay -

and you can see Israel on the map right here -- is so the U.S. can have more time to protect U.S. interests, U.S. troops in the region. Where are those U.S. troops?

MAJ. MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): U.S. troops currently in the Red Sea here and along -- on the destroyer, on the USS Carney. And then also we have ground troops here inside of Syria protecting some of our oil. And then also in the northern part of Iraq. And we've seen them be -- come under attack here. We've had to protect them. The drones -- the Iranians are sending drones after those. So, they're fighting back.

I -- that's really why you're seeing two -- the carrier strike groups in there making sure those U.S. troops are safe.

BERMAN: Yes, we have a U.S. -- we have a U.S. carrier strike group two, well, headed right there, and right there, in the Mediterranean.

Another development overnight, we did learn that there have been some Israeli raids, some ground activity, direct confrontation between Israelis and Hamas inside Gaza right around here. This is a kibbutz, Kissufim, in here is - is Khan Younis. Somewhere between here there was that skirmish. What's Israel doing here?

LYONS: John, I think a couple thinks. First of all, the main line of effort remains the airstrikes. However, the ground forces are using these raids to do primarily two things. Number one, catch any Hamas fighters that are there, kill them, for example, and also go after the tunnel system that's there. Gain intelligence on what's going on, on the ground.

Right now this is an area that Israel hasn't focused on. It doesn't have a lot of knowledge about what's actually going on across that border here. And then if you also notices, strategically, it's going to cut the - it's going to basically cut Gaza in half and it's going to shape the battlefield for this ground incursion and what's going to come. I think they're going to isolate the southern area, they're going to leave that for civilians. They're going to make that say a no fire zone and their main line of effort will be clearly in this northern part of Gaza.

BERMAN: I want to talk about what they're doing from the air right now. This is a map that shows some of the areas that were hit in Gaza, up until the 17th. So, actually, only as recently as one week ago. There have been more air strikes since then.

What is Israel doing from the air now and how does it coordinate with the ground operation?

LYONS: Israeli defense forces it's reporting they're going specially after tunnels, observation posts, anti-tank capabilities. So, they didn't have that prior. The Hamas fighters have that capability right now.

And then, lastly, any known command and control centers. So, if you look in all these places, these are the kind of spots that, if they could cut the Hamas communications off - then as this time goes on, I don't -- I think there's really no rush to start this ground incursion. I think they're going to continue to bomb from the sky.

Now, it won't solve the problem, it won't necessarily cause the war to end, but the bottom line is it will put them at such a disadvantage that they'll be really forced - the one that -- once the ground incursion (ph) comes in, then they'll be in much better shape.

BERMAN: And, of course, all of these areas where you can see have been intense targets, you can't imagine that they are connected to each other through this tunnel system that we've seen, extensive tunnel system. This was what the IDF said the tunnel system looked like in 2021. They periodically tried to destroy it. It gets rebuilt. But you can see how extensive it is.

LYONS: Yes, and I think that's the primary mission of that ground attack military-wise, it's going to have to destroy that system. That - that will take months over time. There's no question. There's not - they're not going to do that. They know their hostages potentially are in there. And they're not just fighting Hamas. There's other Palestinian militia forces that are using those tunnel systems as well. So, part of that, again, that air platform, that air systems is to kind of break up all those command and control structures in those tunnel systems.

BERMAN: And then - and then one piece of new information we got this morning, this is a new weapons system that we are told Israel is using for the first time. It's called either the steel sting or the iron sting, depending on the translation. And the idea is that it's more lethal but more localized in what it can destroy. Why would that be important, Major?

LYONS: Well, it's looking like it's going to go deep targets, right? We know that that tunnel system is underground. I think this is the kind of system that will allow them to really focus on specifically just as tunnel systems when they see them. So - so part of those raids, they're figuring out where they're - where the entrants are, where they're - where they're coming from.

[09:15:05]

All those things that go with that. This is going to allow them to target those systems and start shutting those tunnel systems down.

BERMAN: All right, Major Mike Lyons, always great to have you here. Thank you, as always, so much for your expertise.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, the IDF has now updated the number of people it is believed that Hamas kidnapped and took hostage on October 7th. Now believing the number is 222 people. We're going to speak to the father of one of those hostages, next.

Plus, aid is moving into Gaza once again. Over the weekend, more than 30 trucks were able to cross the Rafah entrance, the Rafah gate. The U.N. relief agency, though, saying now the need for fuel is almost as urgent as the need for food and water in Gaza. The latest on that humanitarian crisis is coming up.

Back in the United States, Congress has now reached a day 20 without a speaker of the House. After Jim Jordan's attempt imploded, there are now nine Republicans who want the job. The big moment for Republicans going behind closed doors once again today. We have an update for you.

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[09:20:14]

BERMAN: This morning the IDF release a new number for people who have been kidnapped inside Israel. There could be as many as 222 hostages now inside Gaza. This would be their 17th day in captivity. This number keeps on going up.

Inside Gaza itself, the Palestinian health ministry there, which is run by Hamas, claims that 12 hospitals and 32 medical centers are out of service after Israeli air strikes and because of fuel depletion. Now, some aid has been getting through, though the Rafah crossing. This is the road in. This is the Rafah crossing right here. And there have been as many as 34 aid trucks -- here are some videos of them -- that have been getting through over the weekend. And that aid is expected to continue. We don't have an update from today if any trucks have been through today. But the expectation is there will be still, even with these few trucks getting in, it does not meet the need international aid workers say.

CNN's Salma Abdulaziz joins us now with what is needed inside Gaza.

Salma.

SALMA ABDULAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and, John, even if those trucks do come into Gaza, the strip is really operating at a deficit. You have to remember that dozens of trucks a day were going in before the conflict because a large portion of the Gaza Strip depends on humanitarian aid. That was the reality before this latest escalation. So, all of that aid is going to be used up extremely quickly. And it's not even going to fill that huge gap, that huge ocean of need on the ground.

And you have to remember these trucks are supposed to distribute aid under extremely difficult circumstances. As you mentioned, 12 hospitals already out of service because there is no fuel. So how are they going to distribute that aid? How far into the Gaza Strip can they go without gas and as air strikes continue to rain down? The Israeli military says it is intensifying air strikes on the Gaza Strip it says to target Hamas. But the reality, the horror that that spells out for the 2 million people trapped in that war zone, you'll remember, of course, it is sealed off, all borders closed, is absolutely unfathomable, John.

I want to bring you one image that just explains how horrifying this is. And I do warn our viewers, it is extremely graphic. But it shows young children, little kids, who have been killed in this fighting. And you can see that there's writing on their legs. Their parents, their family members are scribbling their names, the names of their children, on their legs just so that they can find the bodies of their children so that they could bury them. That's how horrific the situation there. There is no guarantee you can bury or find your dead child right now in the Gaza Strip.

Rights groups are appealing, they're calling for a ceasefire. They say that a pause is needed to allow aid in to get civilians into a safe place, to create a humanitarian zone of some kind. But Israel's military has been clear that there will be no quiet for now. They seem to be pushing forward into that next phase potentially of ground incursion.

BERMAN: Salma Abdulaziz, thank you so much for your reporting on this.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: An update on the hostage crisis now. An Israeli official said that there will be no ceasefire in Gaza as U.S. and Qatari officials continue to work to try to free hostages taken by Hamas. The update from the IDF on the scope of the hostage crisis is this, they now believe 222 people were kidnapped, taken hostage, in the October 7th attack by Hamas. That is a higher number of people than what has last publicly been stated.

On Friday, Hamas released two hostages, you see an image here, two Americans, Judith and Natalie Raanan. Ten American civilians who were in Israel remain unaccounted for. The State Department believes some of them may be hostages. This weekend, Secretary of State Tony Blinken said that the United States is working to get every hostage freed and home.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: We're hopeful that more are released. But the bottom line is this, they need to be released, each and every one of them, now, unconditionally.

We don't know why Hamas chose to release Natalie and Judith first. I use the word first advisedly because, again, we're hopeful that more follow.

This is something we're engaged in virtually around the clock.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And families are also working on this virtually around the clock.

Joining us right now is Jonathan Dekel-Chen. His son, Sagui, was kidnapped and taken by Hamas during the terror attack.

Jonathan, thank you for taking the time. On Natalie and Judith, first and foremost, how did it feel for you, or

how did it hit you or impact you when you first heard that they were released and saw those images?

[09:25:10]

JONATHAN DEKEL-CHEN, SON MISSING IN ISRAEL: Well, I was thrilled for their families, honestly. And it must feel wonderful for them and, you know, allowing them to return to their lives. And I hope not too scarred by the experience.

As far as, you know, the other -- the other hostages, I'm not sure that it means very much at all. There's no question that Hamas has and will continue to, you know, employ a kind of psychological warfare, not just on the families of the hostages, but all Israelis and perhaps beyond. You know, anyone with a heart, anyone with any kind of humanity in them. So, it's not necessarily a signal of anything, but, again, I don't think any human being could be anything other than thrilled for the Raanan family.

BOLDUAN: Yes, and it -- and there's so many, I'm sure, feelings fighting inside of you at all times because as soon as you -- of course, all you're thinking about is Sagui, as well as being thrilled for the Raanan family.

And hearing from Tony Blinken that they don't know why Natalie and Judith were released first, hearing from even the Raanan family that they don't know why they were released first. I mean what - what does this then have you thinking about Sagui?

DEKEL-CHEN: Well, you know, it's -- it has - it has me thinking that, you know, there's always hope. We know -- you know, the things that we know about Sagui is that he's an incredibly strong person. And I'm sure what's - what's holding him -- keeping his spirits up is that he has two beautiful little daughters and a wife in her seventh month of pregnancy, a family, a community, a kibbutz community that's waiting for him to come home, and -- and I'm sure he knows that we will do anything and then some to get him and the rest of the hostages back.

BOLDUAN: You mentioned his wife, your daughter-in-law, and their two children. They're six - the two daughters, six and three is, I think, what I've heard you say before. And as you mentioned, your daughter- in-law is pregnant.

But they also lived through the terror of what they were put through as well, even beyond losing -- having Sagui kidnapped and taken.

How is your daughter-in-law doing right now? How are your granddaughters?

DEKEL-CHEN: I think they're doing as best as they can -- as expected. I have another daughter with her husband and young boys around the same age as those granddaughters who also lived through it. I mean, imagine, just imagine, 200 blood thirsty savage terrorists rampaging through your neighborhood, through your home and killing everything in their path, taking captive everything in their path. Right outside your door. The only thing between you and death at the hands of these Hamas terrorists is an armored door that you're praying will hold while they shoot at it, try to pry it open, try to burn your house down around you in order to either asphyxiate you or get you out when they can then execute you.

So, under those circumstances, I think they're doing OK. But this is going to be a very long road for all of them.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

DEKEL-CHEN: And we -- we're working towards that road to recovery with their dad and all of the other hostages by their side.

BOLDUAN: I have been impressed, you've spoken so eloquently about how complicated this whole horrible thing is. I mean you've spoken so eloquently about what you are going through along with so many other families.

When you hear that the U.S. government has been behind the scenes, kind of pressed Israel to delay or slow the start of a ground incursion, of hope - in hopes of getting more hostages out, what do you think of that? Are you torn by this?

DEKEL-CHEN: Yes, it's kind of excruciating, honestly, because, on the one hand, you know, I was a soldier for long enough to know that every bomb that falls, every, you know, bomb that falls from the sky or is shot from an artillery gun in Israel endangers all of the hostages, including my son, when it detonates somewhere in the Gaza Strip. So, that in and of itself is terrifying.

On the other hand, we would like to reconstitute our lives at some point in these shattered and burnt-out communities.

[09:30:06]

And the only way that can ever happen, and the only way.